bassboy

Hi guys, currently building up a Mk1 Golf running a 1.8 20vT engine and was wondering what management system you would recommend out of;

DTA E48
Emerald K3
Megasquirt

Also where would you recommend getting the above mapped from?

Not looking for mega power...around the 300-350hp mark max

Thanks for any input...

bassboy

Raj_FRST

Depending on budget, in my experience it would be megasquirt. But tbh dont know much about them engines, I think JKM performance are the people to speak to about this engine, they do a lot with the german stuff and get fantastic results so im told

http://www.jkm.org.uk/performance/index.htm

bassboy

Right..JKM list the Emerald...

Ive heard good things about the Emerald and for the price vs features...im not sure what else will touch it? Getting it mapped by the Emerald guys is only £250+VAT to...which is also a big bonus...

budget wise, there is no set budget...but ideally would like to spend less than a grand on management, loom and mapping...its not set in stone so should we need to spend some more...then so be it...

Raj_FRST

Features v price you will never beat ms or mtech, im not too fond of the emerald as I heard mixed views on the mapping interface being a bit of a pain to work round but this is only what ive been told. As for mapping i would recommend getting jkm to map it as they are familiar with the emerald but if im correct the they are also more familiar with the german engines.

Been speaking to luke a fair bit recently regarding my own build and the feedback im getting about jkm is faultless.

As ms, you can get the loom and latest ecu for under 600 which will pretty much do everything you would ever want. There are many COMPETENT mappers of here who can help you out, chiop, rob_dohcm rick etc etc or any company who do live mapping should be able to also help you out.

bassboy

Cheers for the info Raj...

In regards to the Emerald interface, hopefully I will never need to touch it as I will get someone else to do the mapping work for us...works out at £580 + VAT including loom from Emerald direct...

I will speak with JKS and see howmuch they charge to map the management...

The other thing that is attracting me to the Emerald is that there are some features which are designed for the 20vT engine in mind according to their website

Martin-Hadland

iTrader: (2)

I'd put that on OMex 600, I've done a few 20v turbos using this ecu and they drive very nice. I probably have a map that's 95% there too.

bassboy

Martin, how do you rate the Omex though? From what ive read here and some other sites, the Omex isnt a highly regarded ECU?

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Any of those management systems will work fine.

Dave Walker is very good at mapping emerald, makes perfect sense to buy one and get him to map it for you.
He did a guy I knows 20VT in his Elise and it worked very well.

Personally I really do HATE the emerald mapping software with a passion and would sooner map a car on Omex while being kicked in the shins than map anymore on Emerald as it would still be less painful, but as you dont want to touch the mapping that isnt your problem and Dave actually likes the mapping software in the context he uses it in (I tend to road map, he doesnt)

Fetaures wise, MS is king, but its also by far the most problematic too, loads and loads of different firmwares etc and can be a pain to get communicating as a result if you are a mapper and someone just turns up with one.
Most rolling roads wont touch them, I personally really like them though.

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Ive mapped lots of cars on omex and lots of cars on emerald, both work ok in terms of the finished product after mapping, as budget ECU's go they are both "ok".
Mapping wise, the omex is much better, but that wont effect you anyway.

ajamesc

my work mate is doing the same with a mk2 golf he has just had the standard 20v turbo ecu unlocked so that will work with out the mk 4 clocks and alarm system hes then haveing it custom mapped when the cars up and running they told him he should see 200bhp with an air filter a good fuel pump an exhaust system and the next stage turbo up from the standard one

Chip

iTrader: (3)

PS

Mtech V4 is a grand fitted and mapped I believe.
Cant comment on Mtech as mappers as not used them as that myself or know anyone well who has, but I have used their ECU's on quite a few cars (mapped one last night funnily enough!) and they are a great product.

Its basically a commericalised version of megasquirt, so most of the advantages and hardly any of the disadvantages.

That is my first choice on the budget end of the ECU scale, but obviously im talking as a mapper rather than an end user, so most of my reasons arent going to be relevant to you.

Chip

iTrader: (3)

I've heard the standard ECU is very capable if you can gain access to it.
That would limit your options on who to go to in future for mapping though.

ajamesc

his mate runs a company called the firm that are next to hook in hampshire wear he lives so its ideal for him and hes also only going for 200-250bhp as its a light fwd car

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Certainly simple loom-wise etc then too.

Personally I prefer the idea of aftermarket and it being readily tunable by any competant tuner though where possible, especially if its like to evolve.

Rod-Tarry

You mean young Tim its called the Phirm hes my Nitrous supplier.

ajamesc

yeah his name is tim i think rod never meet him myself there all big vw fans you will have to show them what an old ford can do lol when she uses nitrous again

Chip

iTrader: (3)

I'm sure Rod will have already mention it to them, he's not shy in talking about his car

Matt Baxter

iTrader: (37)

Yeah them Rovers do go well

bassboy

This is one of the reasons I dont fancy using MS...ive also heard about lots of conflicts...

I will look into the Mtech also...

I guess that brings into the equation;

Emerald K3
Omex 600
Mtech v4
DTA E48

How does the DTA compare to the above? I can get this for £300 inc loom second hand...but im unsure who we can use to map it?

Chip, if we were to get the likes of Emerald (or possibly DTA) mapped up by xyz, would you be able to run a fine comb over the map on the road and do any tweeks should it need it? Or do you think the like of Dave Walker will map it well enough on the rollers?

Martin-Hadland

iTrader: (2)

Your choice of ecu should based around the person who will be mapping it, I have a 20v turbo Elise that I mapped on Emerald and it's proving quite difficult to get the transient fueling right, I have done several on 600 and they drive perfectly.

bassboy

Martin, totally agree with you...my previous cars have ran Pectel T2 so im used to using Ahmed lol!

Emerald would have been mapped by Dave Walker
Omex would no doubt be mapped by yourself
Mtech v4 I have no experience or knowledge so possibly would have leant towards Chip to map or possibly recommend someone
DTA E48, again no experience with it...

Would 'funky' features would we be able to play with if we went the Omex route Martin?

Basic spec of the engine will be

1.8 20vT (AGU)
Cossie 4x4 intercoolers - reason I say intercoolers is I have triple 4x4 intercoolers welded together here and will try to graft that onto the car..if it doesnt work ill cut the end caps off and use one or 2
GT2871rs turbo
Tubular exhaust manifold
Possibly gas flowed head using standard valves
One of the above management systems
Steel rods
Standard CR
Bigger injectors

All going into a Mk1 Golf chassis

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Bassboy, I dont mind giving it a quick look over for you FOC if you get it mapped elsewhere and bring it to me and want it checked on the road etc, but I simply dont have enough free time to actually map it for you from scratch, im flat out I'm afraid, and even if I did have the free time later on, im not a trader on here anyway.


Martin knows these engines very well, phone him up for a quote of doing the whole job on Omex and I dont think you can go far wrong from there.
Or like I said before, Dave Walker at Emerald has done plenty of them with good results too, I respect him even though I dont like his actual ECU!


If you decide to go DTA though, then speak to track and road in essex, they are VERY experienced with that ECU, including speckys 500bhp+ tigra when he was running on one (he's on a different ecu now though as its now mapped at his work instead so uses one of their ecus)

Pectel T2 is another good option of course.



Like Martin said, really you should pick your mapper first, then go with their recomendation on ECU, rather than the other way around.

Chip

iTrader: (3)

If you go 600 it still does things like launch control, although the 710 is better featured.

3 * 4wd cosworth intercoolers will be far too big for your application, 1 on it's own would be ideal though.

chaffe

MS for me, £210 fitted and mapped (see my other thread)

Chip

iTrader: (3)

It only cost you 210 fitted and mapped if you view your time as worthless

If he wants someone else to do the mapping for him, then he'll have to pay for it, and even if he does it himself he'll be spending money on equipment to do so!

Dlatch!

omex or emerald sounds perfect to me for what your after, as said the mapping software is not a issue if your not mapping it.
both systems have a great rep for reliability.

ps put the engine in the back of the golf

saph cos rob

iTrader: (11)

all i can say about DTA are there not the most helpfulest company to deal with! few years ago i had a pug mi16 turbo running DTA management and the way the guy spoke to me on the phone was discusting, not only me but my tuner also

chaffe

no one can count the time they spend on their own car, as its their hobby. As said before a few million times, if your getting someone to install it and map it then get the management they are happy with.

tabetha

If you can buy a K3 for £580+ vat you're doing well, as they don't make them!!
They may still be advertised as K3 but are in fact K6, running K3 software presently, but when the bugs have been ironed out of the K6's new features, a lot of which will be transferable onto the K3, and of course all onto the K6 for FREE it will be running K6 proper.
The K3/6 is a well used system on the 1.8T, indeed emeralds own golf mk1(2?) uses this engine and is their development car, well one of them anyway.
I was chatting to karl(ecu techie at emerald) on monday whilst picking up my skimmed bells/discs from next door unit about the K6, there's some new features I've not heard of on any other after market ecu's as well, but I'm not saying what.
I had my car mapped there today, and have known dave/karl for years, they and emerald are the most helpful guys I've ever met, I've even offered my cossie as a development car should they need a cossie.
If rod couldn't get the fuelling right, there is a reason, either the car was faulty or he doesn't know what he's doing, on the emerald at least..
Even when I had my new engine build in the car it had done 35 miles and DW spent about 1 hour on it mapping wise for a running in map, it passed the mot at 0.57% co 87ppm, running perfect but of course with a few miles changed a bit.
Personally I think road mapping is a bodge, other think different, that's their choice, but what I can tell you is in the VERY unlikely event the car is not perfect after DW mapping it he would put it right for you as soon as he could, he is not a money grabbing git like most are, and is genuinely interested in happy customers.
At the end of the day it is your money, but if ordering a ecu book your rollers time NOW, as there is a wait, they even operate a cancellation book for people who can come at short notice to fill drop outs, mine today was a drop out,(welder let him down on exhaust build so not ready).
If you're travelling from a far way away you are welcome to crash at mine for the night, I'm about 1/8 mile away from emerald.
tabetha

Raj_FRST

fair play tab!!!

ajamesc

why would you say mapping a car on the road is a bodge lol thats where its driven in every type of circumstances so what better way to map it got to be better than free wheeling in a set of rollers lol mine was mapped on the road and is fine driven hard /slow hot / cold and on first start up! i think the only bodge with mapping on the road is haveing it mapped by someone who dosent know what there doing

DazC

iTrader: (1)

Omex would be my choice out of that list. Fantastic for the money and easy to use.

bassboy

Will hopefully speak to Martin in regards to the Omex tomorrow and also Dave/Tabetha in regards to the Emerald also...

Tabetha, the price I mentioned refers to what was listed on their website...im guessing thats out of date then!

Not in a rush to get it, may end up buying the loom though to get everything ran into the engine bay...

Will let you know how I get on tomorrow with the above people

chaffe

Cant agree more, all the rolling road does is tell you a power figure, a lot of cars will not have the same boost charecteristics on a RR as they do on the actual road, and so will not be perfect

Martin-Hadland

iTrader: (2)

So that's all rolling roads do huh? Good job you're wrong otherwise I'd be struggling my arse off to make it pay its way just on power runs!!


When mapping on the road you can't tell what difference changes to fueling and ignition actually make to the power unless you make quite large changes. On the rollers I can add or take away 2deg ignition and SEE the change up or down in tractive effort, same with fuel.

Rollers don't just freewheel, they provide whatever resistance you wish!

Mostly I can map a car totally on the rollers and it doesn't need anything changing when ran on the road, my 500 is a perfect example... It was mapped on the rollers and drives superbly on the road, in fact I wont be touching the map before I tour parts of Europe in it!

ajamesc

thats fair enough (you no what your doing and i dare say you could do it as well on the road if you had too and no dought have done) theres tunners who can do it just as well on the road so its no way a bodge

Martin-Hadland

iTrader: (2)

I didn't say they were bodgers but I'd way prefer a car thats mapped on the rollers and then checked on the road rather than one that's just mapped on the road.

xr2wishy

iTrader: (2)

I've used megasquirt II v3.0 for a while and it's great to use, however you need forever to read about everything and iron out any issues. so £450 for an ecu, make a loom plus a wideband and lots of time, so i'd just get omex if i were you, anyone mas
that, very easy to use.

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Its not just their mapping software that is from the 1990s then, its their published prices too

Seriously though, as per my comments above and as per tabethas comments, Dave Walker himself is very good at what he does, and its well worth considering an emerald ecu mapped by him, he has lots of happy customers out there, including with that exact engine.

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Martin, rollers only help you extract maximum power in certain circumstances, I find that the majority of turbo cars I map tend to be knock limited on ignition, so you can find that just as well on the road as on the rollers and I find that most turbo cars are EGT limited on how lean I am prepared to run them, so again that is just as good on the road as on the rollers.

I do find rollers very useful though, especially on N/A cars, I can do a better job of an N/A car on a dyno dynamics set of rollers in an hour than I could in a week on the road, as they arent knock limited and they arent EGT limited generally, and with a set of rollers like yours allowing you to hold fixed speed sites it makes it an absolute doddle to visit every single site on the whole fuel map in a very short period of time.

The only reason I dont do more cars on the rollers is that it increases the cost if I do so, if I had a set free to use though I would do more on them as they defiantely have some distinct advantages, not least of which is that you can hold a car under load properly without worrying about your life or license.

At the end of the day, the knowledge of the mapper is the key thing, and I would sooner have a car mapped on the road by someone like Stud@MSD who is a very good mapper than by most rolling road tuners who arent!

Its just a tool at the end of the day, and cant do the job for you, but anyone who thinks that rollers arent useful at all doesnt know how to operate them properly IMHO