lukeytheduke

what is wrong with the garret t series turbos or the hybrids, from what i.ve heard the gt turbos are more fragile, hense the need for a gay dump valve.
Please could someone write a simple table comparing the gt series to the garret t series and what power and engine mods u need per turbo.
I have tried searching but its just the rubbish saying my turbo is better than yours and i am looking to upgrade turbo soon. Cheers for your help. Luke

Jay,

iTrader: (4)

the old gt series turbos were week but all the new ones have revised steel cores and they spool quicker and hold boost longer then the old turbos so all together more efficient

lukeytheduke

But i though thats why they introduced the 360 bearing on the gt series. So if i was to run greys group a head head, aiming for around 450bhp what gt turbo would i be looking at also what prices are there? I was going down the TT T38 ROUTE

lukeytheduke

sorry meant to say introduced the 360 on the t series not gt

turbotoaster

if your looking for a gt series garrett for 450bhp then id go for the gt3071

if you want something else then a borgwarner k27 or a borg s2b as it running a lower inducer will help with spool

lukeytheduke

I.ve never heard of a borgwarmer turbo???? Do u know rough prices for the gt3071 and are they 360bearing turbos and not wet bearing? Cheers luke

martysmartie

iTrader: (1)

Yes they do indeed produce turbos and they can be found fitted in the Focus ST/RS

Martin

lukeytheduke

They fitted the gt 3071 to focus or u mean that brand of turbos? I was hoping for something with some kick, what power range does the gt3071 go from and too and does it need any mods to bolt implace of my t3?

teahan

borg warner made the T5 gearbox in the sierra cosworth and the turbo division used to be KKK turbos, as used in porsche 911 turbo, audi s2, golf gti 1.8t, they have a new range of aftermarket turbos to challenge the best from garrett. roller bearing are much better for spool up time than 360 degree plain bearing is my understanding.

lukeytheduke

does anyone of here sell them and can give me a price? I guess the borg warner turbo's are cheaper but where do i go about getting one from

turbotoaster

easiest place is america to get them.

borgwarner turbos arnt a new thing, they have been used of performance vehicles for years, its just the uk is only just catching up im afraid.

the reason they are so popular is the price of them.

to give you example

a rollerbearing gt42(1000bhp) turbo costs around £2000 in the uk

you can buy a borg warner s475 turbo for £450, they have the same compressor wheel size and a range of rear turbine wheels to suit your needs.

they also flow 1000bhp aswell.

A test was done in america where both turbos were run on the same engine and made the same power(give or take a couple of bhp) at the same boost, yet the borg spooled 400rpm earlier!


also the borg isnt rollerbearing so it runs a nice simple large shaft journel bearing setup, so its cheap to fix and also you dont need to run water lines which in turn helps keep engine water temps down


many people may think this is either false or if its true why isnt everyone running them.......well ford guys are only just working out divided rear housings yet us jap guys have been using them since the 80s

ajamesc

dident rod and mark sheed test a borg on rods new engine and after waiting ages for it to turn up after even finding a way of getting it here come to the concoction it was rubbish and go back to the garret lol ( maybe them ''ford guys'' tested it wrong a lol )

lukeytheduke

I though bearing turbo's were superior?

turbotoaster

actually you will find a few things you didnt know.


1. rod bought that turbo 2 years ago when he didnt know anything about them
2. he wanted the s475 with a t4 rear housing, what he actually recieved was completely the wrong turbo, turned out to be the smaller shafted s300 series turbo with to small a compressor wheel, hence never made the power it should.
3. he realised his mistake and then tried to sell it to me and danny from ep but we looked at the spec and saw that it would be no good for a piston engine(wouldnt be to bad for a rotary) due to its front to rear wheel ratio.

the large turbine wheel meant it spooled similar to the gt42 but the smaller comp wheel meant it wasnt making the power as predicted


Rod will back me up on all that as i still have the pms from him i think.

using a proper s475 will give the results i mentioned

for example http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YS8w0dFd-zk

but even this turbo i speak of is old tech now, the new EFR series is much more effecient for its comp wheel size, to the point like the gtx series you can shrink your wheel and still maintain the same flow.

the only think holding back the EFR series at the moment is the lack of wheel options but that will come in time

lukeytheduke

so the s475 bolts straight on in place of the t3. What size options are there, .63 .70?? I need a turbo which safely runs at 450as my grey injectors run out at 450. If i was to buy one what spec should i ask for?

ajamesc

just get a gt30 tryed tested and very good my car has an mad 500 conversion on it and its very fast and very responsive id also chat to who ever sets up or maps your car before u go out and buy any old turbo lol

turbotoaster

no a s475 is in a different league from what your after and wont work with your engine.

Some pm'd me last night asking exactly the same question as yourself so ill just copy and paste my response, i was at work so didnt have time to reread it or check its all spot on so excuse any spelling/grammar mistakes



'one of the issues you will come across with other turbo manufactures is that they built using 21st century tech.

That means alot will come with divided rear housings for better spool, but the 4x4 cosworth doesnt come with this due to cost.

strangly the 2wd manifold is divided but then they used an elbow to remove that, again probably to save money on the turbo itself(tight buggers)

so looking turbos, my suggestion is either go for a borgwarner S2B t3 turbo with a .76 rear housing, will flow about 460bhp at 2bar

or go for a masterpower turbo, alot of people assume these are ebay turbos, but infact the ebay companies just bought the compressor housings and not the actual turbos themselves

With that in mind, they do a larger range of small turbos in your power range

802128-048 T57 O-trim / .48a/r




comes undivided rear housing, less restrictive 4in inlet(looks like a gt30 from the front)

it has quite a low trim so should spool up pretty quick yet still flow good power

these cost about £500 delivered to your door

these are a few details on them

Compressor:
-A/R .70
-Air inlet 101.7
-Air outlet 64.0
-Inducer wheel 56.5
-Exducer wheel 84.0
-Trim 45

Turbine:
-A/R .68
-Inlet T3
-Turbine housing undivided
-Discharge outlet 5-Bolt/M8
-Exducer wheel 58.5
-Inducer wheel 74.0
-Trim 62'

lukeytheduke

some good info there cheers mate, but im still not convinced about the gt3071 turbo let alone borg turbos. U say it flows up to 460bhp but what is the next turbo up from this as i may get bigger injectors in future and get more head work done. Do u sell these turbos as 500quid seems like a bargain to me compared to price of gt3071.

Rod-Tarry

Ive never had a Borg 475 .
I did indeed buy a BW 400SX it was sold to me as a 850bhp version. When we finally came to test it against the GT4202 it was circa 80bhp down, worked well but not the Power we required. I had the Turbo for some time so no comeback. Further investigation revealed that the 850 version did not come in my flange size I had been given false gen. The Turbo would be great for Power up to 750bhp.
I now have a GTX42 fitted but im changing to the latest BW EFR range of Turbos. MADAde is the testbed. Mark is now using BW Turbos on EVO's & getting great results. Read PF mag this month theirs a full article in there. The EFR is the first ever twin scroll designed from scratch, the others are modified single scroll.


Performance Ford June 2011
' EFR might be shorthand for 'engineered for racing' but these new turbos have so nuch to offer that the next few years could see the EFR turbo become first choice for road & race cars across all marques.'

lukeytheduke

rod have they got an efr turbo for around 450-500hp? My engine will be set up for about 450 but i want a bit of room for improvement. Also any idea on cost?cheers

R4N SS

iTrader: (6)

if you injectors max out at 450bhp i would be either changing them or going for lower as you dont want to run them flat out

lukeytheduke

Cheers mate, so what ones flow safely from 450-500hp

timrud

Who is mapping your car?

I appreciate your wanting to expand your knowledge, but only use the information given on here as a guide. I see your from Kent, and whilst he is not exactlly a stones throw away, I would take a trip to see Mark @ MAD.

lukeytheduke

I havent decided yet mate but was thinking about taking a trip to blackpool! But it all depends on suggestions of the tuner and price really. Once i decide on turbo i can start looking into it more but the reason for this post was to find out about turbos to start with.

lukeytheduke

Right ive found the two turbos from the efr range that range within my power, this is the first,

Borg Warner EFR 7064 Turbo (300-500 HP)
The Borg Warner EFR 7064 is the 4th size (#4 of 7) turbocharger in the high performance EFR line up. The 52.2mm inducer, 70mm exducer Fully Machined Wheel (FMW) compressor flows 56lb/min & will support 500 HP. Truly remarkable for a wheel of it's size. Extremely quick spool & high HP output in a compact frame size. Unrestricted 3.50" air inlet, 2.00" slip-on coupler outlet with integrated Vband option allows use of a standard silicone connector or burst-proof V-band flange & clamp. The BW EFR 7064 is suitable for rally, drift, road racing, auto X, street & drag.

BorgWarner EFR (Engineered For Racing) Series turbos are purpose built units for the performance market & meet the needs of the next generation turbo consumer. Revolutionary from the ground up, each incorporates a long list of features never before seen in a single package. All old technology has been thrown away completely & the result is a whole new breed of turbo, packed full of cutting edge advancements. Great emphases has been put towards a more compact design, making each EFR the ideal choice for applications with limited space available. Outstanding ease of installation & budget friendly (thanks to their 'total package' platform) every EFR eliminates the need to purchase/fabricate/install a separate blow of valve & related flanges/tubing due to their already integrated BOV. The internally wastegated units present another large advantage in savings & install simplicity by eliminating the need for an external wastegate(s), related fab work & otherwise cumbersome materials.

Compressor Features
* Low inertia, Forged Billet Aluminum Compressor Wheel w/ Extended Tip Technology (ETT) provides the ultimate in response & extreme durability in high pressure applications.
* Speed sensor mounting provisions
* Built In BOV Included (All EFR compressor housings incorporate an integrated BOV)
* Boost Control Solenoid Included

Compressor Specs
* Compressor Wheel Inducer: 52.2mm
* Compressor Wheel Exducer (OD): 70mm
* Max Flow Rate: 56 lb/min
* Housing: 3.5" inlet, 2.0" hose coupler outlet w/ integrated Vband option

Turbine Features
* Gamma-Ti turbine wheel cuts turbine inertia up to 50%, dramatically improving turbo response & permitting high rotational speeds.
* Solid Stainless Steel Investment Cast thin wall turbine housing for extreme durability, huge weight reductions & lowered thermal inertia. Very smooth internal channels promote peak flow.
* Adjustable Internal wastegate actuator Included (internal wastegated units only)
* Large internal wastegate ports handle the flow requirements of high performance engines. (internal wastegated units only)

Turbine Specs
* Turbine Wheel OD: 64mm
* Available Housing Option #1: T3 Single Scroll Inlet, 3" (92mm OD) V-band downpipe discharge, .83 A/R, w/ Internal Wastegate
* Available Housing Option #2: T4 Divided / Twin Scroll Inlet, 3" (92mm OD) V-band downpipe discharge, .92 A/R w/ Internal Wastegate
* Available Housing Option #3: T4 Divided / Twin Scroll Inlet, 3" (92mm OD) V-band downpipe discharge, 1.05 A/R, Non-Internal wastegate. (for use with external wastegate only)

Center Section
* Dual Row Ceramic Ball Bearing Design (extreme durability & the lowest friction / fastest spooling bearing design produced to date)
* Built-in -4 AN oil control orifice included (no restrictor needed)
* Water-cooled ( water-cooling is recommended but not mandatory)
* Double seals on both turbine and compressor end for extreme durability & resistance to oil seepage

Note: #1 The turbo part number changes based on the turbine housing selected. The following part number(s) apply to this turbo. P/N: 179355 (T3), 179389 (T4 w/ WG), 179391 (T4 Non-WG)

Note #2: ALL of our Borg Warner turbochargers are fully balanced, brand new units from the factory & include BW's 1 year manufacturers warranty


Second is BW EFR 7670 turbo. (375-600 HP Rating) "
The Borg Warner EFR 7670 is the 5th size (#5 of 7) turbocharger in the high performance EFR series. Utilizing a 57.2mm inducer, 76mm OD exducer FMW compressor to pump out a huge 64 lb/min of flow that supports up to 600 HP. Extremely quick spool & high HP output in a compact frame enables it to occupy only minimal space while producing a potent punch. Perfect for mid to high boost applications up to 45+ psi. Comes with the EFR mid sized ported shroud (compressor housing) with 3.5" air inlet & 2" outlet. The BW EFR 7670 is the perfect small displacement engine turbocharger for drift, road race, time attack, street & some drag that require 600HP of flow capability.

BorgWarner EFR (Engineered For Racing) Series turbos are purpose built units for the performance market & meet the needs of the next generation turbo consumer. Revolutionary from the ground up, each incorporates a long list of features never before seen in a single package. All old technology has been thrown away completely & the result is a whole new breed of turbo, packed full of cutting edge advancements. Great emphases has been put towards a more compact design, making each EFR the ideal choice for applications with limited space available. Outstanding ease of installation & budget friendly (thanks to their 'total package' platform) every EFR eliminates the need to purchase/fabricate/install a separate blow of valve & related flanges/tubing due to their already integrated BOV. The internally wastegated units present another large advantage in savings & install simplicity by eliminating the need for an external wastegate(s), related fab work & otherwise cumbersome materials.

Compressor Features
* Low inertia, Forged Billet Aluminum Compressor Wheel w/ Extended Tip Technology (ETT) provides the ultimate in response & extreme durability in high pressure applications.
* Speed sensor mounting provisions
* Built In BOV Included (All EFR compressor housings incorporate an integrated BOV)
* Boost Control Solenoid Included

Compressor Specs
* Compressor Wheel Inducer: 57.2mm
* Compressor Wheel Exducer (OD): 76mm
* Max Flow Rate: 64 lb/min
* Housing: 3.5" inlet, 2.0" hose coupler outlet

Turbine Features
* Gamma-Ti turbine wheel cuts turbine inertia up to 50%, dramatically improving turbo response & permitting high rotational speeds.
* Solid Stainless Steel Investment Cast thin wall turbine housing for extreme durability, huge weight reductions & lowered thermal inertia. Very smooth internal channels promote peak flow.
* Adjustable Internal wastegate actuator Included (internal wastegated units only)
* Large internal wastegate ports handle the flow requirements of high performance engines. (internal wastegated units only)

Turbine Specs
* Turbine Wheel OD: 70mm
* Available Housing Option #1: T3 Single Scroll Inlet, 3" (92mm OD) V-band downpipe discharge, .83 A/R, w/ Internal Wastegate
* Available Housing Option #2: T4 Divided / Twin Scroll Inlet, 3" (92mm OD) V-band downpipe discharge, .92 A/R w/ Internal Wastegate
* Available Housing Option #3: T4 Divided / Twin Scroll Inlet, 3" (92mm OD) V-band downpipe discharge, 1.05 A/R, Non-Internal wastegate. (for use with external wastegate only)

Center Section
* Dual Row Ceramic Ball Bearing Design (extreme durability & the lowest friction / fastest spooling bearing design produced to date)
* Built-in -4 AN oil control orifice included (no restrictor needed)
* Water-cooled ( water-cooling is recommended but not mandatory)
* Double seals on both turbine and compressor end for extreme durability & resistance to oil seepage

Note: #1 The turbo part number changes based on the turbine housing selected. The following part number(s) apply to this turbo. P/N: 179351 (T3), 179390 (T4 w/ WG), 179392 (T4 Non-WG)

Note #2: ALL of our Borg Warner turbochargers are fully balanced, brand new units from the factory & include BW's 1 year manufacturers warranty."



Any opinions on these there expensive too $1,800

R5FORD

iTrader: (1)

my opinion is why not stick with something that you know has been used time and time again? If it aint broke why fix it theres the T series, GT series, and now the GTX series

lukeytheduke

Whats the gtx series? I.ve tried finding a good website for the gt series that lists the different specs but cant seem to find one

JamesH

iTrader: (21)

Because you can get much better??

If you were buying a turbo, and Harvey said to you, you can have this GT3071 or this BW whatever, and get 300rpm better spool, you'd have the GT3071??

turbotoaster

I dont sell them, i just have contacts for where to buy them, i can happily pass them onto yourself as i tell people about things like this because i feel its important to share knowledge, not just make a profit from it.

the 7064 is similar in size to a gtx3071, slightly smaller comp wheel but larger turbine wheel.

also flows about the same aswell

benefits of it is a better turbine wheel over the garrett as the gtx model is just a gt with a different comp wheel.

the problem you have is your looking at a turbo that was optimised by BW as a twinscroll turbo(as rod mentioned) then using a single scroll, not saying you shouldnt but for the cost of these turbos its something i would be aware of.... a benefit your not using.

overall it will spool a bit earlier than a gtx3071 and make the same power


The next turbo you looked at is similar to the gtx3076 when we look a the compressor wheel, but then runs a larger turbine wheel, again the turbine wheel is better than the garrett but its extra 10mm of size should offset its original gain in spool.

the benefit of a larger turbine wheel is less exhaust gas backpressure which in turn means its easier to get gas out of the engine which increases VE of the engine..

Borg warner looked at it as....the more into the engine, the more coming out so increased there exhaust wheel as they increased there comp wheel.......garrett just stuck a high flowing comp wheel on a low flowing exhaust wheel.

Most people who buy garretts get over this by either not knowing there is a slight loss of potential VE or not concerning themselves on it.

For me id rather optimise both sides of the engine




So overall, do i think the EFR range is better than the GTX range..........yes by a long way.

Do i think its worth you spending your money on........well only you can ask yourself that, personally if your not looking to spend big or have a budget you want to work to then no i would choose something different

all depends on how much you want to maximise your engine setup, you can cut corners everywhere but it will limit an engines potential

cossie4i+

iTrader: (15)

LOL at that you tart

Steve

turbotoaster

also luke another couple of comparisons.

because the bw is running a lightweight gamma wheel the 'off/on' response is better....less weight to speed up and slow down.

when tested a bw hit the same level of boost as the gtx(24psi) 0.500sec quicker

this is when your at a rpm where putting your foot down will mean you hit full boost.

for example 4krpm with a t34 or a 5krpm with a t4

looking at them in detail shows that the compressor wheel on the gtx is a little bit better than the one of the EFR, but the turbine wheel on the EFR is massively better than the GTX when means overall it produces better numbers.

at 1.5bar on a 2.0 piston engine it makes 17whp more than the gtx through less exhaust backpressure, but with everything, nothings for free, so straight up dyno runs you will expect to loose 200rpm of spool

Martin-Hadland

iTrader: (2)

When you say elbow... Do you mean the intermediate part that fits between the manifold and the turbo?? If so that is divided..

lukeytheduke

Can u price me up the efr turbos i mentioned please and anything i'd need to bolt it in place of the original t3 cheers luke

turbotoaster

actually, your right martin, the only 'intermediate' part i had seen in real life must have been ported out into a single entry, i assumed they were all like that from factory, the person must have assumed it will help with flow.

googled the manifold and your right......its divided all the way through!!

what the heck are people running non divided turbos for then?

well it depends on your budget really and overall power your looking for.

since cosworth engines do generally run alot of boost the need compressor wheels at are very effiecent at that level so you can look at either the:

k27 will flow 520bhp, is journal bearing and has a t3 turbine inlet

that has a 4bolt downpipe flange.

be very similar to a normal t4 in its size so will act pretty much the same, will be cheaper than a t4 mind.

if your feeling quite flush with money then the smallest EFR turbo that you can run a t3 flange on is the 7064, they will cost £1200 delivered to your door.........but then your running a turbo that will outspool a t4, the 'on/off' throttle will be dramatically better and out flow it aswell by a good 30-40bhp, that does come with the benefit of its own boost controller and dump valve so potentially its not as bad as it seems.

lukeytheduke

if the turbo u suggest is similar to a t4 then it will be to big and to much lag. I only want about 450bhp and i was going for a t38 turbo. I wouldnt pay 1200quid for a turbo that hasn't been tried and tested as much. What was the turbo u mentioned that was 500pound?cheers luke