Best engine managment?
#81
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can any or all of the ecu's listed run 16 injectors as 16 or would they be better run as 8 on a v8 supercharged engine, and whats the difference between low and high impedence injectors, and is one better than the other for high hp engines
#82
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I dont know of any that will personally run 16. Im sure they are out there though, but I have never needed to know.
and whats the difference between low and high impedence injectors, and is one better than the other for high hp engines
Low impedance injectors are fast to react, have strong nozzles and draw very high current. Things are equalising a little nowadays but that is essentially the difference as far as speccing them goes.
If you want to know more I will type some info tomorrow as I am heading to bed now, if your impatient google saturated coil (High) and peak and hold (low) injectors.
Night all.
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#83
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As I recal that car is where all these screen shots came from, after you spending a few (lol) late nights with T6 ![Surprised](https://passionford.com/forum/images/smilies/bigcry.gif)
and (love these old funny memories) telephone call (about midnight) im just finishing a gig with the band "Mark its stu, have you got a cosworth input shaft i need to align a multiplate clutch to finish the mapping - we've just destroyed it on full chat" lol
one trip to Preston at silly o'clock
by certain people
![Surprised](https://passionford.com/forum/images/smilies/bigcry.gif)
and (love these old funny memories) telephone call (about midnight) im just finishing a gig with the band "Mark its stu, have you got a cosworth input shaft i need to align a multiplate clutch to finish the mapping - we've just destroyed it on full chat" lol
one trip to Preston at silly o'clock
![Surprised](https://passionford.com/forum/images/smilies/bigcry.gif)
![Surprised](https://passionford.com/forum/images/smilies/bigcry.gif)
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![Surprised](https://passionford.com/forum/images/smilies/bigcry.gif)
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#84
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Originally Posted by Stu @ M Developments
This is feeling a little like the PF of old again chaps, its actually keeping me out of bed again for the first time in ages. Good on you all for not wanting to sit in that other room talking about spelling and kittens.
![Surprised](https://passionford.com/forum/images/smilies/bigcry.gif)
So true !
#85
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The systems I've looked at seem basic in terms of functionality (when compared with OEM), and seem more geared towards the racing fraternity.
What I'd like to see is something that supports OBDII, pre/post cat, Baro, EGR etc i.e. something fully configurable that will still pass an MOT on a modern vehicle but at the same time give full freedom for a mapper. IMO we really need a road car based enthusiast system, rather than a competition setup - I've not seen one, anyone else know if such a thing exists?
What I'd like to see is something that supports OBDII, pre/post cat, Baro, EGR etc i.e. something fully configurable that will still pass an MOT on a modern vehicle but at the same time give full freedom for a mapper. IMO we really need a road car based enthusiast system, rather than a competition setup - I've not seen one, anyone else know if such a thing exists?
#86
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as far as user interface goes then surely dreamscience is the best. The fact you cant map on the fly is annoying but the user interface is the best, and standard ford ecu has more functions than most??
#87
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I once had a well known car through the door for mapping. 500+BHP Escos, a well know motor owned by a lovely genttleman who was happy to pay for teh right work, and pay he did.
His car came to us fresh from mapping elsewhere, LIVE at brnters, and It came away having to have ALS engaged when cold to warm it up, its the only way it would run. And that was on the mappers advice I am told.
I couldnt believe it.
The mapper: VERY well known.
The Ecu: Pectel T6 2000.
Fooking disgracefull.![Sad](https://passionford.com/forum/images/smilies/icon_sad.gif)
His car came to us fresh from mapping elsewhere, LIVE at brnters, and It came away having to have ALS engaged when cold to warm it up, its the only way it would run. And that was on the mappers advice I am told.
I couldnt believe it.
The mapper: VERY well known.
The Ecu: Pectel T6 2000.
Fooking disgracefull.
![Sad](https://passionford.com/forum/images/smilies/icon_sad.gif)
Btw the colour of those T6 screen shots always makes me laugh as it's nothing like that, this is what you see..... (I know you know that but for those that have never seen T6)
![](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v221/martin-reyland/aa060-1.jpg)
Like the above ignition map?
Last edited by Martin-Hadland; 07-01-2011 at 10:43 AM.
#88
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The systems I've looked at seem basic in terms of functionality (when compared with OEM), and seem more geared towards the racing fraternity.
What I'd like to see is something that supports OBDII, pre/post cat, Baro, EGR etc i.e. something fully configurable that will still pass an MOT on a modern vehicle but at the same time give full freedom for a mapper. IMO we really need a road car based enthusiast system, rather than a competition setup - I've not seen one, anyone else know if such a thing exists?
What I'd like to see is something that supports OBDII, pre/post cat, Baro, EGR etc i.e. something fully configurable that will still pass an MOT on a modern vehicle but at the same time give full freedom for a mapper. IMO we really need a road car based enthusiast system, rather than a competition setup - I've not seen one, anyone else know if such a thing exists?
Agree totally about the mapping being much more important than the hardware. When I'm the pod, or at a trackday etc. it always amazes me how badly a lot of the cars run. They seem to crank for an age, and then require a few blips of the throttle before they will idle properly. It'sso easy to make them go well on WOT, but takes so much time to sort the transient and start out.
It really makes me chuckle when I see people offering complete mapping sessions which consist of half a day on the rollers!
Rick
#89
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Agree totally about the mapping being much more important than the hardware. When I'm the pod, or at a trackday etc. it always amazes me how badly a lot of the cars run. They seem to crank for an age, and then require a few blips of the throttle before they will idle properly. It'sso easy to make them go well on WOT, but takes so much time to sort the transient and start out.
It really makes me chuckle when I see people offering complete mapping sessions which consist of half a day on the rollers!
Rick
It really makes me chuckle when I see people offering complete mapping sessions which consist of half a day on the rollers!
Rick
#90
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Yes mate it was. What a contrast from when your map was running it in your own car eh?!
I still dont have a clue why my screenshots came out like that. ![Sad](https://passionford.com/forum/images/smilies/icon_sad.gif)
Map? All I can see there are a bunch of very high numbers! ![](https://passionford.com/forum/images/smilies/shocked.gif)
*Edit*
Surely that didnt come out of someones car?!
Btw the colour of those T6 screen shots always makes me laugh as it's nothing like that, this is what you see..... (I know you know that but for those that have never seen T6)
![Sad](https://passionford.com/forum/images/smilies/icon_sad.gif)
Like the above ignition map?
![](https://passionford.com/forum/images/smilies/shocked.gif)
*Edit*
Surely that didnt come out of someones car?!
Last edited by Stu @ M Developments; 07-01-2011 at 10:46 AM.
#92
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Yes mate it was. What a contrast from when your map was running it in your own car eh?!
I still dont have a clue why my screenshots came out like that.![Sad](https://passionford.com/forum/images/smilies/icon_sad.gif)
Map? All I can see there are a bunch of very high numbers!![](https://passionford.com/forum/images/smilies/shocked.gif)
*Edit*
Surely that didnt come out of someones car?!
I still dont have a clue why my screenshots came out like that.
![Sad](https://passionford.com/forum/images/smilies/icon_sad.gif)
Map? All I can see there are a bunch of very high numbers!
![](https://passionford.com/forum/images/smilies/shocked.gif)
*Edit*
Surely that didnt come out of someones car?!
To be fair to the mapper of that engine (not me, haha) it had just come off the dyno and had only really had the on boost sites calibrated, the other sites would have been done incar but that wasn't to be the case as billy big bucks Bickne11 spotted it in my workshop and he said something like " how much would it take to persuade you to put that lot in my van rather than your car, I want it really really badly"
![Surprised](https://passionford.com/forum/images/smilies/bigcry.gif)
T6 always comes out like that if you press 'print screen' don't know why?
And yes!! That map was done by someone very well known and is for a 500hp+ GT equiped turbo car.
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Last edited by Martin-Hadland; 07-01-2011 at 11:01 AM.
#94
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#95
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That said, I run 16 injectors on my DTA.
Although at the time, the 1000cc Injector Dynamics units werent about. I use 2 x 660cc per cylinder, albeit in batch fire, staged.
The Syvecs ticks most of your boxes Stu. It's relatively new, but making headway into a lot of vehicles, both race and road.
#96
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Rick, no, I hadn't until now. Thanks! I see there is even support for OEM type Direct Injection, and the configuration can be started in Simulink or Matlab.
That's some seriously nice, professional kit!
Cheers,
Mark
That's some seriously nice, professional kit!
Cheers,
Mark
Last edited by excursion; 07-01-2011 at 12:14 PM.
#97
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Thats odd, I am sure I was told it HAD been done in car, at brunters or similar, after the engine was installed, and thats why he turned to me as it was so awfull. I looked at the calibration by E-Mail first. maybe my memory of events has been distorted by old age, it matters not. ![Grin](https://passionford.com/forum/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif)
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#101
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Depends how you want to run the 16, but with modern high impedance, there is little need and it seems the modern HighZ injectors perform better than the old design LowZ anyway.
That said, I run 16 injectors on my DTA.
Although at the time, the 1000cc Injector Dynamics units werent about. I use 2 x 660cc per cylinder, albeit in batch fire, staged.
The Syvecs ticks most of your boxes Stu. It's relatively new, but making headway into a lot of vehicles, both race and road.
That said, I run 16 injectors on my DTA.
Although at the time, the 1000cc Injector Dynamics units werent about. I use 2 x 660cc per cylinder, albeit in batch fire, staged.
The Syvecs ticks most of your boxes Stu. It's relatively new, but making headway into a lot of vehicles, both race and road.
also i want to cut the inlet about to allow me to run a normal intercooler rather than the crap in inlet charge cooler,
does anyone know the formular to work out the injector flow i need so can work out the injectors i need, i am looking at 1000hp at the wheels, so i guess about 1200 at flywheel, i want a little in reserve so would like it worked out at 85% duty cycle for 1500 flywheel hp.
#103
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Kind of a related question, how easy is it to map current, modern ECUs compared to the costs of fitting an aftermarket system? For arguments sake, lets say the car is a Fiesta ST.
This is aimed at Stu really (I've already sent Kenny an email asking for some advice on re-mapping but not had a reply yet)
This is aimed at Stu really (I've already sent Kenny an email asking for some advice on re-mapping but not had a reply yet)
#104
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1.
Multiply the target bhp
(1500)
by the BSFC (0.5) -
1500x0.5 = 750
2.
2.
Multiply the number
of injectors by the
max duty cycle (0.85) -
of injectors by the
max duty cycle (0.85) -
3.
Divide the first answer
(750)
by the second
answer (?) to give the
fuel required per hour in lb
answer (?) to give the
fuel required per hour in lb
Grab a coffee mate...
http://www.motorsport-developments.c...AF286_tech.pdf
Last edited by Stu @ M Developments; 07-01-2011 at 03:13 PM.
#105
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From mine: See here:
https://passionford.com/forum/genera...-required.html
From yours, see here I guess:
http://www.evolutionchips.co.uk/Vehi...ng_Search.html
#106
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You will be able to run 16x low z injectors easily enough by pairing them upto the same driver. Is it a V8? If so i'd do what Steve has done and run them semi sequential, staged.
Mark -
nice aren't they? Easily the most advanced ECU available. Nice price too! I would love to have a play with one, but i've managed to dissasemble and figure out how the OE Bosch Motronic ME 7 and MED9 ECU's work and am confident I could adapt it to work on most engines. I'll get round to doing it one day.
Rick
Mark -
nice aren't they? Easily the most advanced ECU available. Nice price too! I would love to have a play with one, but i've managed to dissasemble and figure out how the OE Bosch Motronic ME 7 and MED9 ECU's work and am confident I could adapt it to work on most engines. I'll get round to doing it one day.
Rick
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It depends from whos point of view are you asking?
From mine: See here:
https://passionford.com/forum/genera...-required.html
From yours, see here I guess:
http://www.evolutionchips.co.uk/Vehi...ng_Search.html
From mine: See here:
https://passionford.com/forum/genera...-required.html
From yours, see here I guess:
http://www.evolutionchips.co.uk/Vehi...ng_Search.html
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#110
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Mark -
nice aren't they? Easily the most advanced ECU available. Nice price too! I would love to have a play with one, but i've managed to dissasemble and figure out how the OE Bosch Motronic ME 7 and MED9 ECU's work and am confident I could adapt it to work on most engines. I'll get round to doing it one day.
Rick
nice aren't they? Easily the most advanced ECU available. Nice price too! I would love to have a play with one, but i've managed to dissasemble and figure out how the OE Bosch Motronic ME 7 and MED9 ECU's work and am confident I could adapt it to work on most engines. I'll get round to doing it one day.
Rick
I read about ME7 disassembly on andywhittaker.com - I think he did it with IDA Pro. Good work anyway, the ME7 is a nice bit of kit!
Mark
#111
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looking at the Siemens 80lb injectors which are 835cc giving me loads of overkill, meaning the duty cycle is way lower than the 85% and hopefully this makes them reliable, i can get all 16 for about $900 (Ł600) new, they are hi impedence
#112
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yes its a V8, it will basicly be a built version of the 5.4 supercharged Ford GT supercar engine
#114
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It depends from whos point of view are you asking?
From mine: See here:
https://passionford.com/forum/genera...-required.html
From yours, see here I guess:
http://www.evolutionchips.co.uk/Vehi...ng_Search.html
From mine: See here:
https://passionford.com/forum/genera...-required.html
From yours, see here I guess:
http://www.evolutionchips.co.uk/Vehi...ng_Search.html
Stu, the customer would have to bring it to you in Blackpool though I presume? Your dealers don't have a master license, or the expertise to perform a custom calibration in the majority of cases?
Rick.
#115
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what a good thread, ive just learnt a lot about mapping that ive heard of but knew nothing about.
and 4 tuners on 1 thread, with more than 1 reply and no bitching!![](https://passionford.com/forum/images/smilies/shocked.gif)
maybe the split rooms are a good idea...
and 4 tuners on 1 thread, with more than 1 reply and no bitching!
![](https://passionford.com/forum/images/smilies/shocked.gif)
maybe the split rooms are a good idea...
#118
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Not much said about motec??Is it becouse of the price...What are peoples thoughts about them.I had 3 celicas on motec and mapped by Adrain @ fensport never had any problems with the mapping/ecu and mapped at a afordable price.I'll let them do me saph I think.
who deals with Motec and cossies?H T racing??anyone else
Cheers
who deals with Motec and cossies?H T racing??anyone else
Cheers
#120
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What makes mapping difficult is starting with a blank canvas. The beauty of modern ecus is you can upload another map for a starting point, once you have a engine started and running you can soon start working your way around the mapping points.
With a proper lambda for afr and det cans you can get a friend to slowly drive you around to start whilst you adjust (best to start working up the revs stationary). Ps det cans are more top end stuff not used for cruise or part throttle mapping,
I may have made it seem a little easy as I am used to a very user friendly system and I guess it just comes as second nature now, but you soon pick it up, its just a little scary playing with your pride and joy knowing you are the one making it safe though
![Surprised](https://passionford.com/forum/images/smilies/bigcry.gif)
I'm banging on a bit now
![Surprised](https://passionford.com/forum/images/smilies/bigcry.gif)
Just little bits you pick up with experience I suppose, engine note is also very important, you can hear when a engine is un happy, if its too weak and you add a touch of fuel you can just hear its so much happier,
I don't think this will help you much in terms of learning to map as the only way to do that is have a go! Get a program loaded onto your laptop and play, you can't do no damage that way lol!
Be interesting to see other peoples opinions on this
(must add, the above is very basic mapping! It does get a little more involved than just a fuel map, start up, warm up maps are time consuming, boost maps, can just go on for ever and this is still basic starting and running mapping)