Best engine managment?
06-01-2011, 09:57 PM
#43
Too many posts.. I need a life!!
HI All,
I am using a Haltech E6X unit - purchased 7 years ago. Finally putting a turbo cvh together. Not much in the way of maps available for this unit. I am making my own conservative fuel and ignition maps - based a little on others MS2 maps, and other
turbo E6X maps. The masp are 22X32 positions - I will let everyone know how this goes.
One of my favorite ecu's I worked with in the late 90's was the cosworth DF series ecu.
I wish I had a picture of the Cosworth programming console I used to change ecu settings.
I am using a Haltech E6X unit - purchased 7 years ago. Finally putting a turbo cvh together. Not much in the way of maps available for this unit. I am making my own conservative fuel and ignition maps - based a little on others MS2 maps, and other
turbo E6X maps. The masp are 22X32 positions - I will let everyone know how this goes.
One of my favorite ecu's I worked with in the late 90's was the cosworth DF series ecu.
I wish I had a picture of the Cosworth programming console I used to change ecu settings.
06-01-2011, 09:59 PM
#45
you must be buying them cheap then Jim !!
alot of it is about using what you know, and I can fully understand you using one.
but, if you need a programme or bit of code writing for it to change a parameter, and to make an adjustment to a low or high side then Pectel wont help you (not that they would before unless you where paying them stacks of cash lol)
they just have a name as being old motorsport ecus now, I think the value is decreasing rapidly though now. but they do still do the job (as long as its working ok)
06-01-2011, 10:00 PM
#46
10K+ Poster!!
The fact I hear dos mentioned doesn't exactly scream high tech by todays standards
Better than most ? Without getting into a willy waving contest how does it compare to lets say a Life ecu, Link G4, Vipec, Autronic, Motec and SQ6 They all seem to be very high end to very good ecus available these days.
Last edited by JonnyBravo; 06-01-2011 at 10:03 PM.
06-01-2011, 10:04 PM
#48
you must be buying them cheap then Jim !!
alot of it is about using what you know, and I can fully understand you using one.
but, if you need a programme or bit of code writing for it to change a parameter, and to make an adjustment to a low or high side then Pectel wont help you (not that they would before unless you where paying them stacks of cash lol)
they just have a name as being old motorsport ecus now, I think the value is decreasing rapidly though now. but they do still do the job (as long as its working ok)
alot of it is about using what you know, and I can fully understand you using one.
but, if you need a programme or bit of code writing for it to change a parameter, and to make an adjustment to a low or high side then Pectel wont help you (not that they would before unless you where paying them stacks of cash lol)
they just have a name as being old motorsport ecus now, I think the value is decreasing rapidly though now. but they do still do the job (as long as its working ok)
If you have an expensive motorsport engine and its got a loom and expensively created map etc all setup for a T6 and you realise you cant get yours fixed if goes wrong anymore, then you'll suddenly be in the market for a spare
06-01-2011, 10:08 PM
#49
you must be buying them cheap then Jim !!
alot of it is about using what you know, and I can fully understand you using one.
but, if you need a programme or bit of code writing for it to change a parameter, and to make an adjustment to a low or high side then Pectel wont help you (not that they would before unless you where paying them stacks of cash lol)
they just have a name as being old motorsport ecus now, I think the value is decreasing rapidly though now. but they do still do the job (as long as its working ok)
alot of it is about using what you know, and I can fully understand you using one.
but, if you need a programme or bit of code writing for it to change a parameter, and to make an adjustment to a low or high side then Pectel wont help you (not that they would before unless you where paying them stacks of cash lol)
they just have a name as being old motorsport ecus now, I think the value is decreasing rapidly though now. but they do still do the job (as long as its working ok)
I guess it's down to who you know some of the time as anything we need doing with the pectel range the old boy has a guy who does everything for us
Its a good ecu for its time but as pointed out there is far better out there.
The fact I hear dos mentioned doesn't exactly scream high tech by todays standards
Better than most ? Without getting into a willy waving contest how does it compare to lets say a Life ecu, Link G4, Vipec, Autronic and SQ6 They all seem to be very high end to very good ecus available these days.
The fact I hear dos mentioned doesn't exactly scream high tech by todays standards
Better than most ? Without getting into a willy waving contest how does it compare to lets say a Life ecu, Link G4, Vipec, Autronic and SQ6 They all seem to be very high end to very good ecus available these days.
I can't comment here I don't personally use any of the other ecus but next time your in the area and have a hour pop by and I'll show you all through th t6, think it might surprise you at what it can do, input/output wise.
Btw I'm not as clued up on ecus as id like to be so can't answer much more
Last edited by J1mbo; 06-01-2011 at 10:10 PM.
06-01-2011, 10:12 PM
#50
10K+ Poster!!
Unfortunately not all that cheap, still fetch good money!
I guess it's down to who you know some of the time as anything we need doing with the pestle range the old boy has a guy who does everything for us
Not just for its time, its a good ecu to today's standard IMO,
I can't comment here I don't personally use any of the other ecus but next time your in the area and have a hour pop by and I'll show you all through th t6, think it might surprise you at what it can do, input/output wise.
Btw I'm not as clued up on ecus as id like to be so can't answer much more
I guess it's down to who you know some of the time as anything we need doing with the pestle range the old boy has a guy who does everything for us
Not just for its time, its a good ecu to today's standard IMO,
I can't comment here I don't personally use any of the other ecus but next time your in the area and have a hour pop by and I'll show you all through th t6, think it might surprise you at what it can do, input/output wise.
Btw I'm not as clued up on ecus as id like to be so can't answer much more
I do totally understand why people would want to use them, a bit like why Stu sticks with L8's, its what you know and in fairness most ecu's will do a perfectly good job of running any engine if mapped correctly but a T6 isn't suited to the engine were using, just seems to be a Ford thing !
06-01-2011, 10:13 PM
#51
Sometimes an ECU going obsolete actually puts the value of it UP.
If you have an expensive motorsport engine and its got a loom and expensively created map etc all setup for a T6 and you realise you cant get yours fixed if goes wrong anymore, then you'll suddenly be in the market for a spare
If you have an expensive motorsport engine and its got a loom and expensively created map etc all setup for a T6 and you realise you cant get yours fixed if goes wrong anymore, then you'll suddenly be in the market for a spare
Unfortunately not all that cheap, still fetch good money!
I guess it's down to who you know some of the time as anything we need doing with the pectel range the old boy has a guy who does everything for us
Not just for its time, its a good ecu to today's standard IMO,
I can't comment here I don't personally use any of the other ecus but next time your in the area and have a hour pop by and I'll show you all through th t6, think it might surprise you at what it can do, input/output wise.
Btw I'm not as clued up on ecus as id like to be so can't answer much more
I guess it's down to who you know some of the time as anything we need doing with the pectel range the old boy has a guy who does everything for us
Not just for its time, its a good ecu to today's standard IMO,
I can't comment here I don't personally use any of the other ecus but next time your in the area and have a hour pop by and I'll show you all through th t6, think it might surprise you at what it can do, input/output wise.
Btw I'm not as clued up on ecus as id like to be so can't answer much more
ive seen its inuts/outputs, in fact ive prob still got the screen shots of its horrible hard to read DOS software somewhere lol , its just support and its age that would bother me, but sounds as though your sorted on that side though Jim
06-01-2011, 10:16 PM
#52
The software interface on T6 might look dated, but the actual level of detail in values it allows you to enter are awesome, it really is very thorough in terms of what you can configure.
Not something I would bother learning my way around properly as im so unlikely to come across many of them, but I can see how in the right hands its very capable by any standards.
Not something I would bother learning my way around properly as im so unlikely to come across many of them, but I can see how in the right hands its very capable by any standards.
06-01-2011, 10:17 PM
#53
T6 is still incredible for outright function and useability. Autronic however is excellent also. Most other aftermarket ECU's annoy me in some way or another. More to do with unfamiliarity as I am predominantly an OE mapper, and that means looking at things a VERY different way to a mapper of ECU's designed to be mapped by anyone, or "Fisher Price Systems" as we sometimes call them. 
Anyone interested what I mean by being an OE mapper that uses emulation day in day out, see this topic I have resurected from 6 years ago!
https://passionford.com/forum/genera...-required.html
Anyone interested what I mean by being an OE mapper that uses emulation day in day out, see this topic I have resurected from 6 years ago!
https://passionford.com/forum/genera...-required.html
06-01-2011, 10:18 PM
#54
The software interface on T6 might look dated, but the actual level of detail in values it allows you to enter are awesome, it really is very thorough in terms of what you can configure.
Not something I would bother learning my way around properly as im so unlikely to come across many of them, but I can see how in the right hands its very capable by any standards.
Not something I would bother learning my way around properly as im so unlikely to come across many of them, but I can see how in the right hands its very capable by any standards.
06-01-2011, 10:20 PM
#55
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So weve all descoverd the differences in ecu's, although there are "better ones" its down to the mapper etc.
So how do us laymen people decide who is a good mapper. I definitly dont want to get ino who is bad and good but a genuine question on who as a genaral rule to use?? (if that makes sence)
So how do us laymen people decide who is a good mapper. I definitly dont want to get ino who is bad and good but a genuine question on who as a genaral rule to use?? (if that makes sence)
06-01-2011, 10:23 PM
#57
So weve all descoverd the differences in ecu's, although there are "better ones" its down to the mapper etc.
So how do us laymen people decide who is a good mapper. I definitly dont want to get ino who is bad and good but a genuine question on who as a genaral rule to use?? (if that makes sence)
So how do us laymen people decide who is a good mapper. I definitly dont want to get ino who is bad and good but a genuine question on who as a genaral rule to use?? (if that makes sence)
Sadly, its not easy, Ive seen some shocking mapping jobs from some people with great CVs!
06-01-2011, 10:26 PM
#58
An ECU, has only a few very basic functions which are then combined to control a pretty complex task. It must be able to take in lots of data from sensors, it must be able to present the user with a way of understanding that data in order to make it do what we want it to do and finally, it must be able to control various output functions that are required to make a road car work properly under all conditions.
Now, there are more than one ECU's out there that cant even control an IDLE CONTROL VALVE! Yes thats right, your Ł20K build might not actually be able to idle when cold if you junk that poxy old weber ECU and fit aftermarket. LOL
Such things like that are just basics, that is before we get into interpolation of calibration points or transient fuel correction functions. Chip has touched on those so I wont bore you.
Another issue with some of the ECU's mentioned here are build quality, there are a minimum of three members on here who have been to me with various aftermarket ECU's for mapping that needed us to twiddle the ECU connectors to get them to start due to dry joints etc. NOT a problem we ever see with OE manufactured ECU's!
But the main thing is the mapping, its ALL about the mapping, I would rather have a basic ECU with an exceptional map that the mapper has put his heart into, than an out of this world ECU like Life, or T6 with a garbage map from an idiot in. People think mapping is easy, its not, making an engine fast is very very easy, making that same fast engine reliable is much harder, but making it tractable, economical and reliable from cold is hard. Very Hard.
06-01-2011, 10:26 PM
#59
T6 is still incredible for outright function and useability. Autronic however is excellent also. Most other aftermarket ECU's annoy me in some way or another. More to do with unfamiliarity as I am predominantly an OE mapper, and that means looking at things a VERY different way to a mapper of ECU's designed to be mapped by anyone, or "Fisher Price Systems" as we sometimes call them.
Anyone interested what I mean by being an OE mapper that uses emulation day in day out, see this topic I have resurected from 6 years ago!
https://passionford.com/forum/genera...-required.html
Anyone interested what I mean by being an OE mapper that uses emulation day in day out, see this topic I have resurected from 6 years ago!
https://passionford.com/forum/genera...-required.html
The 'Oe mapper' and the 'motorsport mapper' (or what people think are mappers) are totaly differant, some of the maps I have seen/driven I wouldnt accept as a motorsport map in my rally car let alone as an upgrade in an OE situation.
when mapping for Joe Blogs (Mr retail customer) he will not accept that you have to crank the car 10 times in a morning to make it start, or that he has to hold the revs at 1500rpm whilst it warms up, or that he has a flat spot at 2k revs, but at least it fuels great under full power, most people/home mappers etc will produce a poor map to less than or an equivilant motorsport version, OE will not/cannot.
06-01-2011, 10:28 PM
#60
The software interface on T6 might look dated, but the actual level of detail in values it allows you to enter are awesome, it really is very thorough in terms of what you can configure.
Not something I would bother learning my way around properly as im so unlikely to come across many of them, but I can see how in the right hands its very capable by any standards.
Not something I would bother learning my way around properly as im so unlikely to come across many of them, but I can see how in the right hands its very capable by any standards.
Examples:
Software mapping section.
Hardware maps section.
Hardware setup section.
A fuel and spark map.
For those NOT in teh know, EVERY one of those lines of text is teh title of a seperate calibration area, so a new screen.
So... does anyone want to count how many individual screens have to be carefully mapped to fully utilize Pectel T6 2000?
Last edited by Stu @ M Developments; 06-01-2011 at 10:29 PM.
06-01-2011, 10:32 PM
#62
His car came to us fresh from mapping elsewhere, LIVE at brnters, and It came away having to have ALS engaged when cold to warm it up, its the only way it would run. And that was on the mappers advice I am told.
I couldnt believe it.
The mapper: VERY well known.
The Ecu: Pectel T6 2000.
Fooking disgracefull.
06-01-2011, 10:35 PM
#63
10K+ Poster!!
I once had a well known car through the door for mapping. 500+BHP Escos, a well know motor owned by a lovely genttleman who was happy to pay for teh right work, and pay he did.
His car came to us fresh from mapping elsewhere, LIVE at brnters, and It came away having to have ALS engaged when cold to warm it up, its the only way it would run. And that was on the mappers advice I am told.
I couldnt believe it.
The mapper: VERY well known.
The Ecu: Pectel T6 2000.
Fooking disgracefull.
His car came to us fresh from mapping elsewhere, LIVE at brnters, and It came away having to have ALS engaged when cold to warm it up, its the only way it would run. And that was on the mappers advice I am told.
I couldnt believe it.
The mapper: VERY well known.
The Ecu: Pectel T6 2000.
Fooking disgracefull.
06-01-2011, 10:36 PM
#64
I once had a well known car through the door for mapping. 500+BHP Escos, a well know motor owned by a lovely genttleman who was happy to pay for teh right work, and pay he did.
His car came to us fresh from mapping elsewhere, LIVE at brnters, and It came away having to have ALS engaged when cold to warm it up, its the only way it would run. And that was on the mappers advice I am told.
I couldnt believe it.
The mapper: VERY well known.
The Ecu: Pectel T6 2000.
Fooking disgracefull.
His car came to us fresh from mapping elsewhere, LIVE at brnters, and It came away having to have ALS engaged when cold to warm it up, its the only way it would run. And that was on the mappers advice I am told.
I couldnt believe it.
The mapper: VERY well known.
The Ecu: Pectel T6 2000.
Fooking disgracefull.
As I recal that car is where all these screen shots came from, after you spending a few (lol) late nights with T6
and (love these old funny memories) telephone call (about midnight) im just finishing a gig with the band "Mark its stu, have you got a cosworth input shaft i need to align a multiplate clutch to finish the mapping - we've just destroyed it on full chat" lol
one trip to Preston at silly o'clock
by certain people
06-01-2011, 10:39 PM
#66
As I recal that car is where all these screen shots came from, after you spending a few (lol) late nights with T6
and (love these old funny memories) telephone call (about midnight) im just finishing a gig with the band "Mark its stu, have you got a cosworth input shaft i need to align a multiplate clutch to finish the mapping - we've just destroyed it on full chat" lol
one trip to Preston at silly o'clock by certain people
and (love these old funny memories) telephone call (about midnight) im just finishing a gig with the band "Mark its stu, have you got a cosworth input shaft i need to align a multiplate clutch to finish the mapping - we've just destroyed it on full chat" lol
one trip to Preston at silly o'clock
by certain peopleWow... I forgot about that night. Great memories! I might still have that pic in photofuckit along with this old T6 stuff... BRB.
*edit*
Nope. It was properly fooked though. LOL
Last edited by Stu @ M Developments; 06-01-2011 at 10:43 PM.
06-01-2011, 10:47 PM
#68
For an alternative to Life racing, take a look at Syvecs.
Life make them to spec for Syvecs. So largely a cheaper version just
http://www.syvecs.com/
Other options which dont seem as common, but are apparently very good.
Adaptronic
http://adaptronic.com.au/products/e1280s.html
Or I think I read somewhere that Specky is using one of these ? Seems pretty good value
http://www.specialist-components.co....antPageDisplay
I use DTA S80Pro on my own car. It isnt perfect by any means, but it's very easy to use, comes well featured and works great for me !!
Ive been using DTA since 2002 now and would always recommend them
www.dtafast.co.uk
Life make them to spec for Syvecs. So largely a cheaper version just
http://www.syvecs.com/
Other options which dont seem as common, but are apparently very good.
Adaptronic
http://adaptronic.com.au/products/e1280s.html
Or I think I read somewhere that Specky is using one of these ? Seems pretty good value
http://www.specialist-components.co....antPageDisplay
I use DTA S80Pro on my own car. It isnt perfect by any means, but it's very easy to use, comes well featured and works great for me !!
Ive been using DTA since 2002 now and would always recommend them
www.dtafast.co.uk
Last edited by stevieturbo; 06-01-2011 at 10:51 PM.
06-01-2011, 10:57 PM
#71
For an alternative to Life racing, take a look at Syvecs.
Life make them to spec for Syvecs. So largely a cheaper version just
http://www.syvecs.com/
Other options which dont seem as common, but are apparently very good.
Adaptronic
http://adaptronic.com.au/products/e1280s.html
Or I think I read somewhere that Specky is using one of these ? Seems pretty good value
http://www.specialist-components.co....antPageDisplay
I use DTA S80Pro on my own car. It isnt perfect by any means, but it's very easy to use, comes well featured and works great for me !!
Ive been using DTA since 2002 now and would always recommend them
www.dtafast.co.uk
Life make them to spec for Syvecs. So largely a cheaper version just
http://www.syvecs.com/
Other options which dont seem as common, but are apparently very good.
Adaptronic
http://adaptronic.com.au/products/e1280s.html
Or I think I read somewhere that Specky is using one of these ? Seems pretty good value
http://www.specialist-components.co....antPageDisplay
I use DTA S80Pro on my own car. It isnt perfect by any means, but it's very easy to use, comes well featured and works great for me !!
Ive been using DTA since 2002 now and would always recommend them
www.dtafast.co.uk
the SYVECS looks really nice spec v price wise
ive never got on with DTA, got on even less with the support team
06-01-2011, 11:06 PM
#73
Email support or phone is usually very prompt too, although he can be quite abrupt and to the point. But he always answers with the right info.
06-01-2011, 11:09 PM
#74
Ive never used the Adaptronic at all. But the latest one I listed apparently is an all singing, all dancing....if you can get through the menus lol
Cant see why you had issue, they are an absolute doddle to use. One of the easiest setups Ive worked with.
Email support or phone is usually very prompt too, although he can be quite abrupt and to the point. But he always answers with the right info.
Cant see why you had issue, they are an absolute doddle to use. One of the easiest setups Ive worked with.
Email support or phone is usually very prompt too, although he can be quite abrupt and to the point. But he always answers with the right info.
I just didnt get on with the software or the potbox tbh, though the uses I have had have been on turbo bikes, makes mapping live alittle tricky lol !!
Alan can be an arse - very clever but an arse lol
06-01-2011, 11:09 PM
#75
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06-01-2011, 11:12 PM
#77
Dyno mode is of course great....if you have a dyno.
I dont.
Although the logging etc is very good
06-01-2011, 11:34 PM
#79
I always hear that you can make mapping advancements due to a faster processor but as said surely that processor does not have to be that powerful compared to the speed of an engine and so surely this would mean as ECU'S get all the more complex and powerful there will become a point where the power will be overkill. I am talking here is you are using the ECU purely for managing the engine not doing any of the fancy ancillary stuff, I have never been able to get an explanation beyond that.
It's like the E46 M3 has two 32 bit processors IIRC, now I love to know what they actually have to process (Stu etc?)
Martin
It's like the E46 M3 has two 32 bit processors IIRC, now I love to know what they actually have to process (Stu etc?)
Martin
http://www.motorsport-developments.c...AF279_tech.pdf
Systems like that, along with the extremely complex serial datastreams that all ECU's now output, all require processing power. This is before we consider such amazing safety systems as dynamic stability control that totally takes control of your throttle valves and brake calipers, independantly, along with the suspension settings at the split second you run clean out of talent.
Systems like that require ECU's that are technically, "on holiday" at all times.
I am sure you can appreciate that the ECU must not respond with "Sorry, im a little busy right now, can you wait?" when the canbus requests an immediate airbag activation signal because a bus shelter just triggered a front bumper impact sensor while you were sending the missus a picture of your knob.. LOL
Last edited by Stu @ M Developments; 06-01-2011 at 11:44 PM.
06-01-2011, 11:56 PM
#80
This is feeling a little like the PF of old again chaps, its actually keeping me out of bed again for the first time in ages. Good on you all for not wanting to sit in that other room talking about spelling and kittens. 
From memory, even a cheap, 30 year old 1980's weber ECU has a 13x13 fuel map so it has 13 infinitely variable load sites and 13 infinitely variable speed sites. So say -20 to +30psi and 800rpm to 8000 rpm for arguments sake. In essence, with good interpolation and extrapolation, allied to decent transient fuel correction algorithms, you would have to go a VERY long way to make ANY aftermarket ECU drive better than one of these properly mapped. The fact is, most people on here have never driven a 100% standard 4wd Cosworth in perfect condition. They drive pretty much as well as any other car on the road today, 25years later!
Its the subsequent aftermarket mods and substandard mapping that make them drive shit, not the ECU. LOL
Still, back to point:
What your bigger budget ECU's afford you are hopefully outstanding datastream features so you always know what your ECU knows, great ignition drivers, (No misfire hat, erm, i mean distributor cap) nice auxiliary outputs for things like WI and Nitroes etc... easy access to the calibration tables without emulators and battery backup systems, the ability to use better resolution sensors, 36-1 etc and of course some come complete with wideband fuel control and automap.
Better systems will allow YOU to decide what, say, pin 13 does. Would you like it to output an earth for a relay or a live for a bulb? Do you want it to be RPM controlled, throttle controlled, trackside beacon controlled? No problem, just select from pull down menus and tell the ECU what to do with that pin. Bliss eh Jim?
You get what you pay for, but remember, no matter what you buy, it will only EVER be as good as the calibration it is running, and thats down to you mapper, so if your mapper likes T6 and has proven he can use it, get T6 as it will likely come out better than any ECU he doesn't like.
ECU's are a bit like windows. Windows 7 is better than XP, I am sure of it, but fook me its taking me some time to do very simple things on it and i have had it months. LOL
Do the better ones also have more load sites (I've no idea on how many one may have, but say a cheap/badd ecu might have 100 sites and an expensive one say 500 to pick figures out of the air) so you can also map for more variables meaning that the engine will be as efficient and safe as possible more of the time?
Its the subsequent aftermarket mods and substandard mapping that make them drive shit, not the ECU. LOL
Still, back to point:
What your bigger budget ECU's afford you are hopefully outstanding datastream features so you always know what your ECU knows, great ignition drivers, (No misfire hat, erm, i mean distributor cap) nice auxiliary outputs for things like WI and Nitroes etc... easy access to the calibration tables without emulators and battery backup systems, the ability to use better resolution sensors, 36-1 etc and of course some come complete with wideband fuel control and automap.
Better systems will allow YOU to decide what, say, pin 13 does. Would you like it to output an earth for a relay or a live for a bulb? Do you want it to be RPM controlled, throttle controlled, trackside beacon controlled? No problem, just select from pull down menus and tell the ECU what to do with that pin. Bliss eh Jim?
You get what you pay for, but remember, no matter what you buy, it will only EVER be as good as the calibration it is running, and thats down to you mapper, so if your mapper likes T6 and has proven he can use it, get T6 as it will likely come out better than any ECU he doesn't like.
ECU's are a bit like windows. Windows 7 is better than XP, I am sure of it, but fook me its taking me some time to do very simple things on it and i have had it months. LOL