Valvetrain Harmonics - anyone got any information?
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Valvetrain Harmonics - anyone got any information?
Battling through a uni assignment at the moment and one of the questions is to do with the fitment of long duration, high lift camshafts and it goes on to ask:
"Include any augmentation you may have to carry out to the valvetrain to allow for dimensions over 280 degrees with over 10.5mm lift and to stabilise harmonics."
Now, i've gone into depth about positive and negative forces and the fitment of uprated valve springs to compensate etc. but my textbooks aren't proving overly helpful relating to the harmonics aspect
Just thought i'd put the question out there and see if anyone knew of any reliable sources of info that can be referenced etc.
Thankyouplease
"Include any augmentation you may have to carry out to the valvetrain to allow for dimensions over 280 degrees with over 10.5mm lift and to stabilise harmonics."
Now, i've gone into depth about positive and negative forces and the fitment of uprated valve springs to compensate etc. but my textbooks aren't proving overly helpful relating to the harmonics aspect
Just thought i'd put the question out there and see if anyone knew of any reliable sources of info that can be referenced etc.
Thankyouplease
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Not text book, but there are a few very interesting video's on youtube showing what happens to valves etc when revved hard.
Might give you some inspiration?
I'll go find a linky.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i_Npz...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_REQ1...eature=related
Might give you some inspiration?
I'll go find a linky.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i_Npz...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_REQ1...eature=related
Last edited by Icurus; 06-12-2010 at 07:11 PM.
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How specific is the question, is it open ended about the valvetrain design and the scope of modification possible or are we talking about applying a modification to an existing tightly defined design? As not all answers may be applicable...
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Not text book, but there are a few very interesting video's on youtube showing what happens to valves etc when revved hard.
Might give you some inspiration?
I'll go find a linky.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i_Npz...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_REQ1...eature=related
Might give you some inspiration?
I'll go find a linky.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i_Npz...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_REQ1...eature=related
Fitment of some 280 degree+ / 10.5mm+ lift camshafts to an otherwise standard engine, what additional modifications will be required (i.e pockets in pistons, uprated valve springs, retainers to suit, vernier pulleys to dial cams in etc.) and to then go on to explain what can be done reference valvetrain harmonics etc.
Its the usual drama I have with assignments: "Am I understanding the question to come up with the answer they actually want?"
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Probably want to chuck some stuff in about ensuring the uprated valve springs you'll require don't have any unfortunate resonances esp. in the critical harmonic orders, side effects of increased torsion loads on the cams & ways to reduce this (could include methods for friction reduction), playing with the valves & associated bits to get the mass right to reduce load & again tune the resonance, stuff like that I'd have thought?
Not sure if this is any good to you, not saying it's the best reference but one that a 30 second Google search turned up, there are plenty more out there:
http://www.accessengineeringlibrary....5957_ar016.pdf
Edited to add: As with any questions of this type, what is being looked for is not just 'what do I need to change' but also 'do I understand that if I change X it will also affect Y & Z too'. Asking about harmonics is a prompt that you need to think about more than just mechanical clearance & load.
Not sure if this is any good to you, not saying it's the best reference but one that a 30 second Google search turned up, there are plenty more out there:
http://www.accessengineeringlibrary....5957_ar016.pdf
Edited to add: As with any questions of this type, what is being looked for is not just 'what do I need to change' but also 'do I understand that if I change X it will also affect Y & Z too'. Asking about harmonics is a prompt that you need to think about more than just mechanical clearance & load.
Last edited by wibbler; 06-12-2010 at 08:13 PM.
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Probably want to chuck some stuff in about ensuring the uprated valve springs you'll require don't have any unfortunate resonances esp. in the critical harmonic orders, side effects of increased torsion loads on the cams & ways to reduce this (could include methods for friction reduction), playing with the valves & associated bits to get the mass right to reduce load & again tune the resonance, stuff like that I'd have thought?
Not sure if this is any good to you, not saying it's the best reference but one that a 30 second Google search turned up, there are plenty more out there:
http://www.accessengineeringlibrary....5957_ar016.pdf
Edited to add: As with any questions of this type, what is being looked for is not just 'what do I need to change' but also 'do I understand that if I change X it will also affect Y & Z too'. Asking about harmonics is a prompt that you need to think about more than just mechanical clearance & load.
Not sure if this is any good to you, not saying it's the best reference but one that a 30 second Google search turned up, there are plenty more out there:
http://www.accessengineeringlibrary....5957_ar016.pdf
Edited to add: As with any questions of this type, what is being looked for is not just 'what do I need to change' but also 'do I understand that if I change X it will also affect Y & Z too'. Asking about harmonics is a prompt that you need to think about more than just mechanical clearance & load.
Bit more to go on now for the night shift
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I'm curious about the choice of words - note 'harmonics' NOT 'resonances'. As above, it could be a prompt, or perhaps simply a misnomer. Clearly undamped oscillators will generally resonate at their natural frequency and to a lesser extent at harmonics thereof, so perhaps it's expecting you to make that connection yourself?
I would consider not just the valve/spring/retainer/follower assembly but to include the cam itself. The force of spring/follower pushing back against the cam will be causing a small-amplitude oscillation of the cam shaft which could potentially become a larger heat/stress inducing oscillation at the cams' resonant frequencies.
However, wikipedia turns up the following ref ducati-esque desmodromic valves:
So perhaps that's what the question's after - will the springs specified resonate so as to cause valve float and what would you change to avoid it.
See-
http://www.spring-makers-resource.ne...ng-design.html
http://www.efunda.com/designstandard...signer_eqn.cfm
http://www.roymech.co.uk/Useful_Tabl...ngs_Surge.html
I would consider not just the valve/spring/retainer/follower assembly but to include the cam itself. The force of spring/follower pushing back against the cam will be causing a small-amplitude oscillation of the cam shaft which could potentially become a larger heat/stress inducing oscillation at the cams' resonant frequencies.
However, wikipedia turns up the following ref ducati-esque desmodromic valves:
Desmodromic valve drive was often justified[citation needed] by claims that springs could not close valves reliably at high speed and that the forces caused by suitably strong springs exceeded what cams could withstand. Since then[when?], valve float was analyzed and found to be caused largely by resonance in valve springs that generated oscillating compression waves among coils, much like a Slinky. High speed photography showed that at specific resonant speeds, valve springs were no longer making contact at one or both ends, leaving the valve floating[9] before crashing into the cam on closure.
For this reason, today as many as three concentric valve springs are sometimes nested inside one other; not for more force (the inner ones having no significant spring constant), but to act as snubbers to reduce oscillations in the outer spring.
An early solution[when?] to oscillating spring mass was the mousetrap or hairpin spring[10] used on Norton Manx[11] engines. These avoided resonance but were ungainly to locate inside cylinder heads. Today, Formula One racing engines use gas springs that have no resonant parts, their working parts having an insignificant mass compared to the force of their compressed gas.
Valve springs that do not resonate are progressive, wound with varying pitch or varying diameter called beehive springs[12] from their shape. The number of active coils in these springs varies during the stroke, the more closely wound coils being on the static end, becoming inactive as the spring compresses or as in the beehive spring, where the small diameter coils at the top are stiffer. Both mechanisms reduce resonance because spring force and its moving mass vary with stroke. This advance in spring design removed valve float, the initial impetus for desmodromic valve drive.
For this reason, today as many as three concentric valve springs are sometimes nested inside one other; not for more force (the inner ones having no significant spring constant), but to act as snubbers to reduce oscillations in the outer spring.
An early solution[when?] to oscillating spring mass was the mousetrap or hairpin spring[10] used on Norton Manx[11] engines. These avoided resonance but were ungainly to locate inside cylinder heads. Today, Formula One racing engines use gas springs that have no resonant parts, their working parts having an insignificant mass compared to the force of their compressed gas.
Valve springs that do not resonate are progressive, wound with varying pitch or varying diameter called beehive springs[12] from their shape. The number of active coils in these springs varies during the stroke, the more closely wound coils being on the static end, becoming inactive as the spring compresses or as in the beehive spring, where the small diameter coils at the top are stiffer. Both mechanisms reduce resonance because spring force and its moving mass vary with stroke. This advance in spring design removed valve float, the initial impetus for desmodromic valve drive.
See-
http://www.spring-makers-resource.ne...ng-design.html
http://www.efunda.com/designstandard...signer_eqn.cfm
http://www.roymech.co.uk/Useful_Tabl...ngs_Surge.html
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I suspect the reason for mentioning harmonics rather than resonance is that the frequency stimulating the part (as based on the engine operating speed & multiples of this from different parts) is generally not the issue but one of the harmonics - 3rd & 5th seem to be referenced a lot around the valve springs for example as this is the sort of frequency range where problems occur.
People tend to misuse the language, they are talking about resonance but use the word harmonics because this is the cause, when really they are thinking about the effect.
Re: springs resonating, the videos linked earlier show this as you can see the standing wave in the spring.
The last problem like this I looked at involved parts getting stimulated to resonate based on the frequencies generated by a gear-type oil pump going through certain operating speeds; the pump itself was fine but you could hear and feel what was happening elsewhere. Spectral analysis made the stimulation frequency & the problem harmonic really obvious. Fixed by introducing damping (via tuned lengths in the oil lines) at the key frequencies.
People tend to misuse the language, they are talking about resonance but use the word harmonics because this is the cause, when really they are thinking about the effect.
Re: springs resonating, the videos linked earlier show this as you can see the standing wave in the spring.
The last problem like this I looked at involved parts getting stimulated to resonate based on the frequencies generated by a gear-type oil pump going through certain operating speeds; the pump itself was fine but you could hear and feel what was happening elsewhere. Spectral analysis made the stimulation frequency & the problem harmonic really obvious. Fixed by introducing damping (via tuned lengths in the oil lines) at the key frequencies.
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