ajamesc

I see your point dont get me wronge but at the end of the day an innocent man had lost his sight doing his job and others had been harmed and others threatened so i dont agree with u as it had gone on for too long and they were obviously looking to take him alive so he could be held accountable for what he had done! hence the taser

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Err, you do agree with me then, as thats what I have been saying all along too, I think you must have misread something somewhere that I wrote, so apologies if it was confusingly worded.

dangerousbrian

i cant see what the fuss is about. he killed an innocent man and the other shootings so should deserve to die imo..hes getting a lot of support up here in the north east it seems because of his hatred for the police, which seems to be the 'in thing', so that must say something at least..if they wanted to really wanted to keep him alive, then i cant see why they didnt just wait for him to fall asleep?

arch

Just because it's not been authorised by the Home Office, does not mean it cannot lawfully be used.

Lets not forget, TASER is the very first method/means of gaining an element of control. It comes before non compliant handcuffs/knee strikes/punches/kicks and way before baton.

As to wait for him to fall asleep, no mate, this would never happen. The police have the control, not the suspect. What would have happened of they had been there for a further 14 hours, then he just took the cowards way out and shot himself anyway?Or a million and one other things that 'may' have happened whilst they were all sat there, having the mexican stand off.

What if they had let his long lost brother talk to him, the one he hadn't had contact with for years and years. How do the police know that seeing his brother wouldn't have sent him off on one. Who knew what their relationship had been like? What if he had shot his brother?

Strikes me that the bloke wasn't a nutter, just a very dangerous man by virtue of the fact he was alone with a nothing to lose, and had access to a firearm with idiot mates who would help him out. He was a man who committed appalling crimes on innocent folk but hadn't got the bottle to man up and stand in front of a jury of his peers to answer for his crimes(like an awful lot of 'hard men' I have met in the last twenty years).

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Thats what I was expecting. The original comment appeared to be trying to imply otherwise.


Agreed, just being a cowardly aggressive cunt who pushes women about isnt a diagnosed medical condition.

Fiddy

Agreed, if he hadnt shot his ex, her fella, and a plod, neither he, nor the plod, would have been in that position, so it was definitely the result of his actions. its just all these, ' just shoot the cunt' reactions a lot have had that worries me.

i personally think its good there is an investigation, and IF, any of the firearms deployed were uncalled for, it will help make the situation more clear in future incidents, im sure no one wants the police to have a shoot first, ask questions later mentality, although in this case, thats not been brought into the equation, we all seen they tried to negotiate with him for 6 hours, its just when it did come to a conclusion, were the tasers being fired a contributory factor into him pulling the trigger on himself, and if so, imho, that needs to be addressed.

ajamesc

I quoted on the wronge reply lol i was on about the use on the taser and the police being held accountable for useing it

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Its a shame that the police seem to be oblivious to the fact that if they continue to treat innocent members of the public like criminals left right and chelsea that it degrades the amount of support that the public have for them.
Sure there will always be a small element who hate the police just because they are an authority figure, but there are far more people these days (like myself) who have no faith left in the police in general just because of the way that the police act, its SO rare to find one who is actually up for treating the public with any respect IME
Still a few good ones left, but getting rarer all the time, and thats only going to make it harder to have the public on side.
It would be a lot easier to respect members of a police service, than of a police force, and whichever way they choose to name it, I know which we currently have!


A tired and irritable lunatic with a shotgun isnt a great prospect IMHO, I dont think there is much chance he would have fallen asleep without starting shooting first, at either himself or the police.

Chip

iTrader: (3)

I only said *IF* it was an illegal weapon, I didnt actually expect that to be the case, so I think you took my reply out of context.

Psycho Warren

iTrader: (5)

ex-sailor (ooo-errr missus) but thats just nit picking.

so because you in your 38 years have only seen 4 coppers go down and a lot of copper abuse means they must ALL be bad and that abuse of powers by cops mostly goes unpunnished???

That sounds like something id expect off one of the teenagers at the charity i work at "why are the pigs picking on me?" "because you vandalise cars and steal things"

yes but who kicked off first?? the criminal/drunk idiot usually. once you kick off the police have no choice but to use force to detain you. Its simple logic that to restrain and control you then more force is needed than the criminal gives out. Pretty simple really.

If they cant take shit/dont like shit then dont give it to the cops in the first place.
oh really?? Its about personal choices. I grew up on a council estate until 14 so i know what CHAVS are thanks!! But i agree the name has been popularised by the media and overused to include all teenage unruley behaviour etc. When i refer to CHAVs i refer to scum, or people who act like scum as it makes no difference, you are what you are as you say, unless you decide to change.

People have choices. even some poor kid from a poor area with shit parents. Yes he might not have the same opportunity when young but he still has choices. he can CHOOSE to work or commit crime. He can CHOOSE to work for minimum wage in maccyD's then study on the side to better himself. He can CHOOSE to hang around in gangs and intimidate people etc.

Its all about the choices someone makes. And its the person who makes those choices who should take responsibility for their actions. Society and the government doesnt make teen tearaways act the way they do. they choose to behave that way.

If certain people dont like the fact society looks down on them and considers them oxygen thiefs/CHAVs/scum/dole scroungers/pikeys etc etc then dont behave that way.

and if these people are soo badly damaged by their upbringing that they cannot behave in a civilised manor and cannot abide by the law then maybe prison IS the best place for them to protect the rest of us.
yeah funny isnt it that they think they are hard yet cant take the punnishment. surely a "hard man" can take it???

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Surely you would have to be hard AND totally stupid, to actually WANT to do time?

I dont think that avoiding wanting to do time makes someone weak which is the implication in some of the posts in this thread, although I agree that killing themselves to avoid it does.

Psycho Warren

iTrader: (5)

well you have to be pretty fucking stupid to be a criminal and get caught in the first place
depends on why they are avoiding it. You could argue that avoiding taking responsibility for your own actions is in itself a sign of weakness/cowardice.

or you could go down the route that many criminals just dont give a shit about anyone but themselves, feel no guilt/concience etc so of course they wouldnt be "weak" per se. Although in those cases you could argue they are bordering on sociopathic behaviour.

DanW@FastFord

iTrader: (1)

I'm properly amazed that so many people have sided with him. Not least because he was a known police informant. And there was me thinking that all 'grasses' were scum.

Psycho Warren

iTrader: (5)

@ Dan

i do find the whole grass thing funny.

cant those retards understand that reporting criminals will in the long run make their area better as the scum eventually get locked up?

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Indeed, the fucking irony of it

DanW@FastFord

iTrader: (1)

It's not just irony, it's bare-faced hypocrisy on a massive, massive scale!

Chip

iTrader: (3)

No, the irony is that they are too stupid to realise they are hypocrits

joffy

iTrader: (1)

John Charles De menezes is a good example, what would have happened if the police had let him run on to the train and he was a suicide bomber?? If he had killed 50 people and injured how ever many other then how much more would you be slating the police??

DanW@FastFord

iTrader: (1)

Totally.

And what if Moat had started shooting at the homes around him. Then there would be cries of "why didn't the police take him down first?".

The police are in an extremely difficult position in situations like these, as there will always be two sides, and there will be bad press whatever they do.

In my opinion - if you've got a gun, and you're waving it about in public then you should expect to run the very real risk of being shot.

As for people boo-hooing because the Taser 'made him do it' - It was HIS finger on the trigger of HIS gun pointing at HIS own head that caused HIS death. This isn't TV where a slick talking negotiator makes them change their mind, or a sharpshooter shoots the gun out of his hand. This is real life. The man was a known violent felon, he'd shot several people, had threatened the police and deserved his own fate.

No one else is to blame for the decisions he made in his life.

packman

They get slated when they do right they get slated when they do wrong , the bloke was a danger to the public for once they did the right thing , owe yes one more thing the cowards way out !!!

Skotie jay

ok this issue is getting on my tits. if this was America they would of shot him b4 he thought bout shooting himself. They tried to save this idiots life. at most if he had lived he'd of ended up get life maybe twice but that would of only give him 50 yrs in pen. This guy was obviously disturbed, an wouldn't of thought twice bout shooting an innocent but to top it off people support this idiot!! But whats more annoying to me is if he'd give himself up he'd of gone to a mental home not prison on grounds of being mentally unstable. Yes the police was warned he might do summat nasty but how many people threaten some one after being stuck in a cell!! What also gets up my nose is the fact people are praising him on facebook but would they be praising him if he had shot some one they knew i doubt it. like warren said we live in a society that to many idiots are thinking that they are gangsters an big men because the sell a bit of weed or coke an can bully people. this kind of thing makes me sick an people need to grow up an get a job an be a useful member of society insted of sitting on fb an thinking they hit men pfft make me sick

Chopshop85

iTrader: (4)

I think the police should have shot him and let him bleed out wherever he dropped. Gets the job done and sends a message.

The police mess about too much trying to do "the right thing" for criminals for the reason that they get blamed for sh*t like this that doesnt even matter.

As soon as you take someone elses life. f*ck your human rights, you just lost them.

Skotie jay

totally agree to many politically correct pricks in this country

charlie luciano

iTrader: (3)

The fact was that in fact he wasn't a suicide bomber bet yet he was still gunned down by the police and nobody in the force was held accountable, it was just a case of 'oh sorry it was mistaken identity'


Luciano

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Everyone makes mistakes, even people who are making life and death decisions, it was a pretty easy mistake to make in the circumstances, and if he wasnt running from the police because he was here as an illegal immigrant on an expired visa then he wouldnt have got shot.
Im not saying that makes it right, it doesnt, but the blame doesnt lie squarely with the police for mistaking someone who lived where a suspected terrorist lived and looked like the suspected terrorist and then ran away from them when they tried to stop him, for being a terrorist.

I would have shot him too if I was them!

If they hadnt shot him and he was the terrorist that it seemed very likely he was, dozens of innocents could have been killed.

Psycho Warren

iTrader: (5)

thing is what you would want as appropriate "accountability" just wont happen now or ever.

it was a catalogue of mistakes by a lot of people. no one mistake was solely responsible for his death so theres pretty much no hope of any criminal charges and slim chance of anything other than professional warnings etc. who would you bring manslaughter charges against??? coorporately?? is it fair that the head of the met gets locked up for something he had no control over? no of course not. so all the courts could do is fine the police or award compo etc to the family. so a criminal court case just wastes more tax payers money and achieves nothing.

JonnyBravo

Considering what was going on at the time if a armed Police Officer or infact a few of them told him to stop where he was then he should of, doing the off raised suspicion and as already mentioned above what would of been said IF he was a suicide bomber ?

I agree it seemed a bit of a harsh way to go but he did ask for it and if it was the USA he probably wouldn't of got as far as he did anyway.

As for this guy, well he did shoot himself after all, with his own gun, that was pointing at his own head, what on earth did anyone expect to happen.

I don't believe if he had of survived he deserved a life sentence, he deserved to be executed which infact he did a good job of himself !

mrjenrst

Yes i did. But his post was a contradiction, he even admitted it

mrjenrst

no it doesnt at all. If mr smith from grass street goes to the 5-0 to report someone 90% of the time its ignored.
Now if mr dodgy goes and say's i can give you all the info on mr shady etc but you leave me the fuck alone! What do you think will happen?

Psycho Warren

iTrader: (5)

you cynic

im sure the police take credible reports seriously for serious crimes.

foreigneRS

it's probably just as rare for the police to find a member of the public that treats them with respect.

the way the police service operate generally by consent rather than force is wrong imo - they need to be allowed to toughen up to get more respect

JonnyBravo

Exactly, you know in the US not to mess with them wether your in the right or wrong, people know this and tend to be more on their side.

mrjenrst

Mate its what happens