calling all zetec turbo people!
13-12-2009, 08:24 PM
#41
Advanced PassionFord User
you can get a t34 with stage 5 internals that will do a genuine 600bhp from america somewhere! same physical size as a t34 turbo
cheers paul
cheers paul
13-12-2009, 08:27 PM
#42
Advanced PassionFord User
i aint bigging the silvertop up hes asking for pros and cons which i have said about both engines , but my engine is provern , what you done with the zetec engine , oh yeh fook all and seeing as ian howell is the best zetec tuner in the country by a mile then i will listen to people who have achieved something not just talked shit ,
this is coming from a man who said that he didnt think ian was a good engineer lol.
we will race mate when my cars finished to see which is fastest
cheers paul
this is coming from a man who said that he didnt think ian was a good engineer lol.
we will race mate when my cars finished to see which is fastest
cheers paul
13-12-2009, 08:33 PM
#43
Advanced PassionFord User
true ian is a good tuner but alot of it comes from what people in states been doing for years and what has your engine proved exactly that strapped to a dyno it done this and that i believe for a engine to prove something it has to make it into an engine bay and be abused if it's done these things now please put up it's times and topspeed run
perhaps 1/4 miles tho 
13-12-2009, 08:35 PM
#44
PassionFord Post Whore!!
both engines responed well to being heavily modified and turbo'd.
silver top engine has far bigger mains caps which makes the bottom end slightly stronger as standard.
the black top engine has a baffled sump as standard , very slightly better flowing head until you have the area six ultimate head then theres hardly no difference , people will say rod ratio etc but just get rods to suit your needs.
oil pumps are a massive issue and the black top has had billet gears made so they are very strong
also you can buy billet mains caps for the black top but theres some machining work involved.
all these parts will cost more money on top and can be expensive.
when i asked ian howell which engine he preferes he says the silver top and hes the man to listen to
silver top engines have come up with the numbers etc and theres more silvertops running big bhp than blacktops
sunnys 460+bhp silvertop
mine 522bhp silvertop
dan arrowsmiths 536bhp silvertop
paul johnsons 500+bhp silvertop bottom end / blacktop head (major work mating the 2 together)
will gallops 660bhp blacktop (rallycross unlimited budget not what the average person can afford)
i think theres not alot in it but the blacktop is readily available
hope this helps
cheers paul
silver top engine has far bigger mains caps which makes the bottom end slightly stronger as standard.
the black top engine has a baffled sump as standard , very slightly better flowing head until you have the area six ultimate head then theres hardly no difference , people will say rod ratio etc but just get rods to suit your needs.
oil pumps are a massive issue and the black top has had billet gears made so they are very strong
also you can buy billet mains caps for the black top but theres some machining work involved.
all these parts will cost more money on top and can be expensive.
when i asked ian howell which engine he preferes he says the silver top and hes the man to listen to
silver top engines have come up with the numbers etc and theres more silvertops running big bhp than blacktops
sunnys 460+bhp silvertop
mine 522bhp silvertop
dan arrowsmiths 536bhp silvertop
paul johnsons 500+bhp silvertop bottom end / blacktop head (major work mating the 2 together)
will gallops 660bhp blacktop (rallycross unlimited budget not what the average person can afford)
i think theres not alot in it but the blacktop is readily available
hope this helps
cheers paul
13-12-2009, 08:40 PM
#46
Advanced PassionFord User
thats what i meant by times i.e0-60 1/4mile or 0-100 as said above most figures above are all dyno stuff and i prefer it when they actually get abused as this really proves an engine
13-12-2009, 08:41 PM
#47
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13-12-2009, 08:48 PM
#49
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thanks mate
13-12-2009, 09:34 PM
#52
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13-12-2009, 09:44 PM
#53
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13-12-2009, 09:56 PM
#54
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13-12-2009, 10:16 PM
#56
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13-12-2009, 10:20 PM
#57
Advanced PassionFord User
true ian is a good tuner but alot of it comes from what people in states been doing for years and what has your engine proved exactly that strapped to a dyno it done this and that i believe for a engine to prove something it has to make it into an engine bay and be abused if it's done these things now please put up it's times and topspeed run
what i will do then rick is tell harvey and ahmed to get rid of the dyno as its shit and tell the 2 best tuners in the business that they dont know a solid engine when they test them because you say so lol. what about ag cossie engine that went on the dyno and theres nowt wrong with that in the car!.
tell me what youve done then rick as iam genuinely interested
crazycage i dont know what your prob is with me as if you read my post i gave my opinion on both engines good and bad , and iam also very close friends with ian and talk to him all the time , iam also sure that ian had to relocate the belt pulley so it either a silvertop head or the other way round , since then ian has told me that a local firm close to paul built his last engine so i dont know if it changed since then , and i forgot sunnys engine of the list
cheers paul
13-12-2009, 11:11 PM
#60
Advanced PassionFord User
Oh, and by the way, if the engines going in a Mk3 Fiesta you'll have to do a bit of work on the top engine mount with a black top as the belt tensioner will be touching it.
14-12-2009, 09:17 AM
#62
PassionFord Post Whore!!
total understand where your coming from mate but when your engine stands you at Ł10,000 plus and your trying to build a car from scratch unfortunatly thinks take time and yes iam after some good top speed runs and 1/4 mile times. as for dyno pulls this is the most accurate way of testing an engine for bhp and torque.
what i will do then rick is tell harvey and ahmed to get rid of the dyno as its shit and tell the 2 best tuners in the business that they dont know a solid engine when they test them because you say so lol. what about ag cossie engine that went on the dyno and theres nowt wrong with that in the car!.
tell me what youve done then rick as iam genuinely interested
crazycage i dont know what your prob is with me as if you read my post i gave my opinion on both engines good and bad , and iam also very close friends with ian and talk to him all the time , iam also sure that ian had to relocate the belt pulley so it either a silvertop head or the other way round , since then ian has told me that a local firm close to paul built his last engine so i dont know if it changed since then , and i forgot sunnys engine of the list
cheers paul
what i will do then rick is tell harvey and ahmed to get rid of the dyno as its shit and tell the 2 best tuners in the business that they dont know a solid engine when they test them because you say so lol. what about ag cossie engine that went on the dyno and theres nowt wrong with that in the car!.
tell me what youve done then rick as iam genuinely interested
crazycage i dont know what your prob is with me as if you read my post i gave my opinion on both engines good and bad , and iam also very close friends with ian and talk to him all the time , iam also sure that ian had to relocate the belt pulley so it either a silvertop head or the other way round , since then ian has told me that a local firm close to paul built his last engine so i dont know if it changed since then , and i forgot sunnys engine of the list
cheers paul
i dont have a prob with anyone wanting to build a silvertop its there cash and there car but the blacktop is just a better base to start from.
all mep done on pauls engine was rebore it and not very good one at that.
and as for you wanting to race rick or prick as you call him 4x4 v's fwd on the 1/4 mile is not a fair race imo.
Last edited by crazycage; 14-12-2009 at 09:18 AM.
14-12-2009, 09:38 AM
#63
Too many posts.. I need a life!!
Right so if i read this right, the best to build would be using a silver top bottom end with a blacktop head. the reason i ask is that i am building a zetec turbo myself and i have a set of pec rods and pistons to fit the silver top. But if i am going to get a better flowing head from the blacktop should i use that?This would save me the cost of porting the silver top head as i am only looking at running 300bhp.
Can this be done then and if so what cost or problems would i face. Plus would it still be as reliable as it would be to use the correct paired heads. Im very interested in hearing an outcome to this as it could save me money and give me a better engine in the process.
cheers adam
Can this be done then and if so what cost or problems would i face. Plus would it still be as reliable as it would be to use the correct paired heads. Im very interested in hearing an outcome to this as it could save me money and give me a better engine in the process.
cheers adam
14-12-2009, 10:08 AM
#64
Personally what would I run if I was to build another engine.
Well I am building what would be deemed a new engine again after my oil pump failure. The complete bottom end set up was scrapped.
Thankfully the head at best is salvageable, this will have new valves and train fitted though to freshen it up.
Oil pump IS the weak point. Silver top or Black top!
Even if the Billet gearing is fitted . Im 99% sure Sazybk's failed early in 2009. He is running huge HP and revs but a fails a fail in my book.
Back to the points raised however.
Black top silver top for and against.
Well that depends how far you want to get involved.
I am sticking with a silver top head as it Is what I have, this is also what zetec boy has too and a few others.
If this was to have failed in mine/damaged I probably would have gone for a black top spec.
WHY????
I like the added security of the extra tensioner on these. It makes sense if your revving high and the solid lifters too.
After one engine that cost me a fortune, caution is my latest HOBBY!
Im not needing to rev HIGH or anywhere near 8k. Peak power if I remember is around 7250rpm on my last spec.
Main caps will they fail wont they fail If you have best part of Ł1500-2000 in a bottom end the price of some caps and an up rated pump are mere pocket change!
Im not messing around this time and the dry sump option is the way forward. With an array of early warning lights and gauges for oil pressure.
The biggest hurdle I had to address was the issue of boost control with an internally gated turbo. Hopefully the external waste gate set up will sort this out.
In summary
You need to decide on the power output of your engine and what revs it pulls too.
This being the key decider of any spec.
Silvertop / Blacktop / SVT/ST170 They all have weak points just need to address the key issues to HOPEFULLY rule out these failings.
Whichever engine you go for they are in essence the same things .
Well I am building what would be deemed a new engine again after my oil pump failure. The complete bottom end set up was scrapped.
Thankfully the head at best is salvageable, this will have new valves and train fitted though to freshen it up.
Oil pump IS the weak point. Silver top or Black top!
Even if the Billet gearing is fitted . Im 99% sure Sazybk's failed early in 2009. He is running huge HP and revs but a fails a fail in my book.
Back to the points raised however.
Black top silver top for and against.
Well that depends how far you want to get involved.
I am sticking with a silver top head as it Is what I have, this is also what zetec boy has too and a few others.
If this was to have failed in mine/damaged I probably would have gone for a black top spec.
WHY????
I like the added security of the extra tensioner on these. It makes sense if your revving high and the solid lifters too.
After one engine that cost me a fortune, caution is my latest HOBBY!
Im not needing to rev HIGH or anywhere near 8k. Peak power if I remember is around 7250rpm on my last spec.
Main caps will they fail wont they fail If you have best part of Ł1500-2000 in a bottom end the price of some caps and an up rated pump are mere pocket change!
Im not messing around this time and the dry sump option is the way forward. With an array of early warning lights and gauges for oil pressure.
The biggest hurdle I had to address was the issue of boost control with an internally gated turbo. Hopefully the external waste gate set up will sort this out.
In summary
You need to decide on the power output of your engine and what revs it pulls too.
This being the key decider of any spec.
Silvertop / Blacktop / SVT/ST170 They all have weak points just need to address the key issues to HOPEFULLY rule out these failings.
Whichever engine you go for they are in essence the same things .
14-12-2009, 11:18 AM
#66
Too many posts.. I need a life!!
So is there STILL no uprated oil pump for the silver top engine?. I would of hoped by now something would of been made due to the demand of them!
Due to me having the pec rods and pistons to suit the silver top engine, would these fit into the blacktop bottom end so i could run the complete blacktop engine with my uprated parts. I believe that the cranks are the same but someone correct me if im wrong! by doing this i could use the uprated oil pump and like luca said have the added tensioner. As i am only wanting to run 300bhp and be used for everyday use the engine wouldnt be subjected to the stress that alot of you guys put urs through on the track and 1/4 mile.
cheers
Due to me having the pec rods and pistons to suit the silver top engine, would these fit into the blacktop bottom end so i could run the complete blacktop engine with my uprated parts. I believe that the cranks are the same but someone correct me if im wrong! by doing this i could use the uprated oil pump and like luca said have the added tensioner. As i am only wanting to run 300bhp and be used for everyday use the engine wouldnt be subjected to the stress that alot of you guys put urs through on the track and 1/4 mile.
cheers
14-12-2009, 11:27 AM
#67
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Silvertops are tops!
Boys you really shouldnt be getting so upset and excited! I know what HAS worked for me and I know what my silvertop HAS achieved on a Dyno. As regarding the comments about the only way to test an engine is in the car, well I take my hat off to anybody who wants to hold a 500+bhp engine flat out under full load long enough for somebody to monitor all the perameters and make the adjustments.
As regarding future achievements with zetec turbos in a car, watch this space....
Boys you really shouldnt be getting so upset and excited! I know what HAS worked for me and I know what my silvertop HAS achieved on a Dyno. As regarding the comments about the only way to test an engine is in the car, well I take my hat off to anybody who wants to hold a 500+bhp engine flat out under full load long enough for somebody to monitor all the perameters and make the adjustments.
As regarding future achievements with zetec turbos in a car, watch this space....
14-12-2009, 11:32 AM
#68
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silvertop oil pump gears. there is someone getting these made from billet at the moment should be ready in jan but they will need testing!!! any takers lol.
Also i am looking into something else that doesnt stop the problem but moves the harmonic vibration further up the rev range and out of the majority of our rev ranges hence no gear shattering.can also PM for info or suggestions
Also i am looking into something else that doesnt stop the problem but moves the harmonic vibration further up the rev range and out of the majority of our rev ranges hence no gear shattering.can also PM for info or suggestions
14-12-2009, 12:04 PM
#71
My expiriance on Zetecs is as follows -
Cranks are very strong, I was running a Black top at 95mph in 5th gear when I went to snatch 4th (chasing an Evo) and fully selected 2nd!!!! I got a 2 second overrev to 12500rpm. It bent all 8 ex valves as cam pully rotated on camshaft. That was the only damage. Also using standard main bearing caps.
Cranks are very strong, I was running a Black top at 95mph in 5th gear when I went to snatch 4th (chasing an Evo) and fully selected 2nd!!!! I got a 2 second overrev to 12500rpm. It bent all 8 ex valves as cam pully rotated on camshaft. That was the only damage. Also using standard main bearing caps.
14-12-2009, 12:32 PM
#72
Advanced PassionFord User
Luke & Szybak (?) and anyone else who have had high RPM oil pump failures, what crank pulley's were you using?
To throw something else into the works, the guide and tensioner pulley on blacktops/ST170 and the possible weakness with these at high RPM.
Oh and for the silvertop fanboy's, looking at the 2 different blocks I would say that the blacktop is stronger!!
To throw something else into the works
, the guide and tensioner pulley on blacktops/ST170 and the possible weakness with these at high RPM.Oh and for the silvertop fanboy's, looking at the 2 different blocks I would say that the blacktop is stronger!!
14-12-2009, 01:14 PM
#73
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[quote=dug112y;4573813]silvertop oil pump gears. there is someone getting these made from billet at the moment should be ready in jan but they will need testing!!! any takers lol.
a billet oil pump gear will be far better than the standard sintered ones used,its just a matter of finding out how much better.
they should be tested at 9k +rpm
a billet oil pump gear will be far better than the standard sintered ones used,its just a matter of finding out how much better.
they should be tested at 9k +rpm
14-12-2009, 01:53 PM
#75
Advanced PassionFord User
a dyno wouldn't be much use, it would need to be under sustained high rpm usage for some time. Unfortunately for him I think its Will who is going to prove whether the billet gears are up to the job or not.
14-12-2009, 04:28 PM
#78
Advanced PassionFord User
cheers paul
