Beware Broadspeed capri !!!!! NOT
24-09-2009, 08:06 PM
#121
PassionFord Post Whore!!
That's what happened with mnine as recently as June.
24-09-2009, 08:14 PM
#129
I've found that life I needed.. It's HERE!!
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 1,249
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
To me this is an easy concept which most RS nuts I reckon would agree with....
I also beleive that if an RS500 is missing it's original special 205 block then they too have lost some of their providence albeit no where near the same amount as the shell!
24-09-2009, 08:16 PM
#131
FFS i have never heard such utter shite on any post on passionford
Please go do your homwork and come back when you have a single clue what you are talking about
I have been in the bodyshop trade all my life before starting the spares business and have reshelled hundreds of cars due to damage and not once has any of them NOT retained its origonal chassie number
and im not getting arsey i just cant grasp how you think a car that has a new shell isnt fit to carry its same chassie number
Please go do your homwork and come back when you have a single clue what you are talking about
I have been in the bodyshop trade all my life before starting the spares business and have reshelled hundreds of cars due to damage and not once has any of them NOT retained its origonal chassie number
and im not getting arsey i just cant grasp how you think a car that has a new shell isnt fit to carry its same chassie number
Last edited by Mr RS500; 24-09-2009 at 08:18 PM.
24-09-2009, 08:19 PM
#132
I've found that life I needed.. It's HERE!!
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 1,249
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It's the fantasy of it being 'touched' by the Tickford workers while it goes through the Tickford factory along with the unique parts being fitted....
Surely, else it's nothing special at all....or am I missing the point of what the RS500 is all about ?
24-09-2009, 08:23 PM
#134
As the RS500 registrar I really think you miss what the big deal with the RS500 is....
It's the fantasy of it being 'touched' by the Tickford workers while it goes through the Tickford factory along with the unique parts being fitted....
Surely, else it's nothing special at all....or am I missing the point of what the RS500 is all about ?
It's the fantasy of it being 'touched' by the Tickford workers while it goes through the Tickford factory along with the unique parts being fitted....
Surely, else it's nothing special at all....or am I missing the point of what the RS500 is all about ?
Now im not trying to say what they did wasnt great and a credit to the workers there but it isnt like a hand built from scratch car is it
and as for me missing the point mate , if i wasnt passionate about the 500 i wouldnt own 3 of them and sertainly wouldnt be the registrar
Last edited by Mr RS500; 24-09-2009 at 08:25 PM.
24-09-2009, 08:28 PM
#135
PassionFord Post Whore!!
From the DVLA website a moment ago:
Vehicle identification number
This is a legal requirement for all vehicles used on the public highway to carry a vehicle identity number (VIN). This may be lost when a vehicle is substantially rebuilt, particularly in the case of kit vehicles where the chassis or bodyshell may not have been stamped by the manufacturer. In such circumstances the DVLA local office will allocate a replacement VIN. The DVLA local office will issue an authorisation letter and registration will not take effect until the Agency receives confirmation that the vehicle has been stamped with the correct identity.
Registration of vehicles without identity
The following procedures must be followed when making application for the registration and first licensing of a vehicle without identity:
- you should use your nearest DVLA local office
- applications from outside a DVLA local office's catchment area will be refused
- you will be asked to produce documentation confirming your name and address, the link below gives more information
- you will be asked to produce official receipts from identifiable suppliers for the components used in a rebuild. The authenticity of receipts may be checked. They will be stamped by the DVLA local office before return
All vehicles without identity (VIN and registration mark) will be inspected by DVLA and referred to the police. Applicants who rebuild vehicles and can prove the origins of the components need not be concerned. However, if the police believe a vehicle to be stolen DVLA will refuse to register and it may be impounded.
24-09-2009, 08:29 PM
#136
I've found that life I needed.. It's HERE!!
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 1,249
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I would agree if tickford built them from scratch , but all they did was drive a brand new std 3 door into the workshop rip the engine out / fit another one then change bumpers /spoilers etc etc
Now im not trying to say what they did wasnt great and a credit to the workers there but it isnt like a hand built from scratch car is it
Now im not trying to say what they did wasnt great and a credit to the workers there but it isnt like a hand built from scratch car is it
However, I can understand that in some peoples eyes the fantasy is worth paying for.
Hence why I feel if you take the fantasy away they are worth no more than a normal three or the value of it's parts....
So you tell my why you think RS500's are worth so much more over a three door with identical parts ?
24-09-2009, 08:29 PM
#137
The reason this is not the case is because the id (and V5) are assigned to a shell.
I had an intresting chat with my father who has has been in the police for 32 years. I the eyes of the law, swapping shell ids is very naughty whether the cars are stolen or not.
24-09-2009, 08:30 PM
#139
ok this is how i used to check when i was buying and selling cosworths,xr's,and other high performance fords back in the late 80's and right thru the 90's.
i knew what a genuine floorpan looked like,i knew what genuine ford floor undersealer looked like,i knew what when i lifted the flap up to see the floor stamp the numbers should look like,and i knew what the paint or primer ford used on the floor inside around the stamp looked like.
i would have a proper good look at it and if it didn't look like what i remember seeing them brand new looking like or it was a cover up job a lesser person would be happy with i would walk away.
i used to see loads of tampered with floor pans as i bought and sold them and i always checked the floor pans.
i would buy them if they had no stamp where they were supposed to be and no evidence of tampering as the new ford shells would be just smooth metal,i knew they had been reshelled and as they were hpi clear that told me a new shell had been used.
its all very well saying you would rather have a rare genuine ford thats been reshelled into a body shell that lesser models use,i would argue that a real good rare ford is one thats never been fucking neglected and gone to shit in the first place or badly damaged therefore not needing a replacement bodyshell because the other one is knackered and uneconomical to repair.
i have seen so many rs's over the years that have dodgy id,the wrong id,the right id and the wrong shell,and welded up and buggered about so much they would be dangerous in a good hit. it all makes a good original unrestored car with panels and floor stamps untampered with the best cars.
cheeRS
24-09-2009, 08:31 PM
#140
From the DVLA website a moment ago:
Vehicle identification number
This is a legal requirement for all vehicles used on the public highway to carry a vehicle identity number (VIN). This may be lost when a vehicle is substantially rebuilt, particularly in the case of kit vehicles where the chassis or bodyshell may not have been stamped by the manufacturer. In such circumstances the DVLA local office will allocate a replacement VIN. The DVLA local office will issue an authorisation letter and registration will not take effect until the Agency receives confirmation that the vehicle has been stamped with the correct identity.
Registration of vehicles without identity
The following procedures must be followed when making application for the registration and first licensing of a vehicle without identity:
Vehicle identification number
This is a legal requirement for all vehicles used on the public highway to carry a vehicle identity number (VIN). This may be lost when a vehicle is substantially rebuilt, particularly in the case of kit vehicles where the chassis or bodyshell may not have been stamped by the manufacturer. In such circumstances the DVLA local office will allocate a replacement VIN. The DVLA local office will issue an authorisation letter and registration will not take effect until the Agency receives confirmation that the vehicle has been stamped with the correct identity.
Registration of vehicles without identity
The following procedures must be followed when making application for the registration and first licensing of a vehicle without identity:
- you should use your nearest DVLA local office
- applications from outside a DVLA local office's catchment area will be refused
- you will be asked to produce documentation confirming your name and address, the link below gives more information
- you will be asked to produce official receipts from identifiable suppliers for the components used in a rebuild. The authenticity of receipts may be checked. They will be stamped by the DVLA local office before return
please show me where it says if a vehicle is reshelled due to heavy damage and repaired by an authorised repair center it must have a new chassie number
all that says is if the ID is lost , like in the case of a kit car etc , if you are reshelling a legit car because of damage etc the chassie number isnt lost is it
Last edited by Mr RS500; 24-09-2009 at 08:38 PM.
24-09-2009, 08:33 PM
#141
ok this is how i used to check when i was buying and selling cosworths,xr's,and other high performance fords back in the late 80's and right thru the 90's.
i knew what a genuine floorpan looked like,i knew what genuine ford floor undersealer looked like,i knew what when i lifted the flap up to see the floor stamp the numbers should look like,and i knew what the paint or primer ford used on the floor inside around the stamp looked like.
i would have a proper good look at it and if it didn't look like what i remember seeing them brand new looking like or it was a cover up job a lesser person would be happy with i would walk away.
i used to see loads of tampered with floor pans as i bought and sold them and i always checked the floor pans.
i would buy them if they had no stamp where they were supposed to be and no evidence of tampering as the new ford shells would be just smooth metal,i knew they had been reshelled and as they were hpi clear that told me a new shell had been used.
its all very well saying you would rather have a rare genuine ford thats been reshelled into a body shell that lesser models use,i would argue that a real good rare ford is one thats never been fucking neglected and gone to shit in the first place or badly damaged therefore not needing a replacement bodyshell because the other one is knackered and uneconomical to repair.
i have seen so many rs's over the years that have dodgy id,the wrong id,the right id and the wrong shell,and welded up and buggered about so much they would be dangerous in a good hit. it all makes a good original unrestored car with panels and floor stamps untampered with the best cars.
cheeRS
i knew what a genuine floorpan looked like,i knew what genuine ford floor undersealer looked like,i knew what when i lifted the flap up to see the floor stamp the numbers should look like,and i knew what the paint or primer ford used on the floor inside around the stamp looked like.
i would have a proper good look at it and if it didn't look like what i remember seeing them brand new looking like or it was a cover up job a lesser person would be happy with i would walk away.
i used to see loads of tampered with floor pans as i bought and sold them and i always checked the floor pans.
i would buy them if they had no stamp where they were supposed to be and no evidence of tampering as the new ford shells would be just smooth metal,i knew they had been reshelled and as they were hpi clear that told me a new shell had been used.
its all very well saying you would rather have a rare genuine ford thats been reshelled into a body shell that lesser models use,i would argue that a real good rare ford is one thats never been fucking neglected and gone to shit in the first place or badly damaged therefore not needing a replacement bodyshell because the other one is knackered and uneconomical to repair.
i have seen so many rs's over the years that have dodgy id,the wrong id,the right id and the wrong shell,and welded up and buggered about so much they would be dangerous in a good hit. it all makes a good original unrestored car with panels and floor stamps untampered with the best cars.
cheeRS
24-09-2009, 08:36 PM
#142
So are you now saying that its only ok to do it with a new shell? If you are saying it is ok to use an old shell then you shouldnt be swapping the ids around as they are unique to the shell. If you could go around swapping shells legally, then would DVLA not allow you to just send the V5 off to change the number as you can with engine numbers?
The reason this is not the case is because the id (and V5) are assigned to a shell.
I had an intresting chat with my father who has has been in the police for 32 years. I the eyes of the law, swapping shell ids is very naughty whether the cars are stolen or not.
The reason this is not the case is because the id (and V5) are assigned to a shell.
I had an intresting chat with my father who has has been in the police for 32 years. I the eyes of the law, swapping shell ids is very naughty whether the cars are stolen or not.
I changed a shell ( used ) with full agreement from DVLA as i could prove the LEGIT history of the used shell , thats the difference
But when reshelling into a brand new shell the only id you have is the one from the damaged car , and AS SAID why dont brand new shells come with there own ID if thats how it is supposed to be done
24-09-2009, 08:37 PM
#143
PassionFord Post Whore!!
This may be lost when a vehicle is substantially rebuilt... where the chassis or bodyshell may not have been stamped by the manufacturer.
24-09-2009, 08:42 PM
#144
IT ISNT LOST THO IS IT
its on the damaged shell FFS Why cant you grasp it on the old shell so you simply stamp the old number into the new shell and destroy the old shell
Please please please go to your local bodyshop tommorrow and ask them and then come back
24-09-2009, 08:48 PM
#145
PassionFord Post Whore!!
So let's just say you are right (and I know that bodyshops do what you say, with new shells, but doing doesn't make it right) why then would DVLA not just allow me to stamp the VIN from my donor into my new shell and get on with it as a 1991 car, instead of a 2009 car?
I had owned both cars for years, and the donor had been registered to me for years so plainly nothing hooky going on, but still they insisted on issuing a new VIN and getting confirmation that the new number had been stamped in before registering the car.
I had owned both cars for years, and the donor had been registered to me for years so plainly nothing hooky going on, but still they insisted on issuing a new VIN and getting confirmation that the new number had been stamped in before registering the car.
24-09-2009, 08:52 PM
#146
So let's just say you are right (and I know that bodyshops do what you say, with new shells, but doing doesn't make it right) why then would DVLA not just allow me to stamp the VIN from my donor into my new shell and get on with it as a 1991 car, instead of a 2009 car?
I had owned both cars for years, and the donor had been registered to me for years so plainly nothing hooky going on, but still they insisted on issuing a new VIN and getting confirmation that the new number had been stamped in before registering the car.
I had owned both cars for years, and the donor had been registered to me for years so plainly nothing hooky going on, but still they insisted on issuing a new VIN and getting confirmation that the new number had been stamped in before registering the car.
Because you didnt reshell lets just say , a 1.3 escort into a brand new 1.3 escort shell did you . without reading back didnt you reshellwith a different shell compared to the donour car ?
and you arnt a registered authorised repair center either
this is the key factor , registered repair centers can reshell cars legaly and have stamp kits Bloke in his council garage cant without DVLA aproval and without them inspecting after and stamping the shell for you
Last edited by Mr RS500; 24-09-2009 at 08:54 PM.
24-09-2009, 09:02 PM
#148
funny how we have gone from a ralph broad capri to cozzies here 
With the greatest of respect we are typing here about reshelling cars that have a id stamped in the floor or innerwings from new,and cars that didn't cos that was how it was with fords pre 70's and modified old cars from nos shells and kit cars where the regs are different now to the late 80's and 90's.
the dvla changes its tune every now and then, i personally do not have a problem with a rs500 or a fookin fiesta fiasco 1.1 that had a new body shell to repair accident damage wether back when they were new or much later as service shells get hanging around.
i do have a problem with reshelling a car with a second hand shell thats had its own id removed.
and i certainly have a problem with using a non genuine shell and making it look like one just to keep a valuable car going,that really in my book is down to greed,its worth good money in good condition so lets cobble it !!!
With the greatest of respect we are typing here about reshelling cars that have a id stamped in the floor or innerwings from new,and cars that didn't cos that was how it was with fords pre 70's and modified old cars from nos shells and kit cars where the regs are different now to the late 80's and 90's.
the dvla changes its tune every now and then, i personally do not have a problem with a rs500 or a fookin fiesta fiasco 1.1 that had a new body shell to repair accident damage wether back when they were new or much later as service shells get hanging around.
i do have a problem with reshelling a car with a second hand shell thats had its own id removed.
and i certainly have a problem with using a non genuine shell and making it look like one just to keep a valuable car going,that really in my book is down to greed,its worth good money in good condition so lets cobble it !!!
24-09-2009, 09:09 PM
#154
Regular Contributor
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 260
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This is an area which traditionally causes a lot of disagreement and is a bit of a can of worms.
What is legal and what complies with DVLA requirements are not necessarily the same.
A brand new shell can retain the identity of the donor vehicle and as Paul says that's why it comes unstamped because it is a service item. The problem comes in that there is no uniform way to stamp in the 17 digit chassis number. In other words, it's up to the individual bodyshop to use punches of their preferred size and character style. Personally, I would stamp the strut top (legal requirement to have a stamped in number) and leave the floor pan untouched so it can be seen in the future that the vehicle has been reshelled with a brand new replacement bodyshell.
Ringing doesn't have to involve a stolen shell. If I chopped out the chassis numbers from two escorts (both of which I own) and swopped them over, both would be ringers as they are purporting to be something they are not but neither would be stolen.
It is not illegal to ring a car, that is, apply the identity of one car to another (or use a second hand shell to reshell a car if you like). There is no specific offence of ringing. To use my escort example above, both would be ringers but neither would be illegal. If I reshelled a 3 door cosworth with a second hand base shell, that would not be illegal in itself. However (and most importantly), it would not comply with DVLA requirements and would mean the car should go on a Q plate. Even if the base model id is retained, interestingly, it should still be on a q plate as it is a radically altered vehicle (came out the factory as a base and ended up as cosworth spec). There is also a possibility of a deception offence under the Theft Act when selling them on because the ringed base model is being presented as a cosworth when in fact it is not. If it is clearly stated that it has been reshelled with a second hand shell, then there is no deception.
So it is perfectly possible for something to be legal which does not meet the DVLA requirements for id retention. It just means that there is a risk to any future owner that the DVLA could find out and require it to go on a q plate.
Martin is right though - regardless of what the DVLA accepted on the particular occasion mentioned, it was not in accordance with their policy and the car should have had a q plate irrespective of what could be proved about the origins of the second hand replacement shell. Frankly, I am amazed that they allowed it to happen and I think Paul was really lucky on that occasion. I hope it wasn't Gosforth VRO! Standards are sometimes a bit lax. For instance, I once saw the bodytype description on a V5 successfully changed from 4 door saloon to 3 door hatchback. That's how lax the DVLA were. However, it is worth noting that the DVLA cannot legalise something which is illegal and nor can the police. Take for example Durham Police's practice a few years ago of stamping cars which had had their id removed with an 18 digit DURPOL number and supporting q plate applications on that basis - just because the police allowed it could not make (in this case stolen cars) legal.
Something else which will be of interest to a few people on here (and me as an owner of one of these vehicles), if you have a cossie powered Mk3, Mk4 focus, fiesta or whatever, then it should be on a q plate because it is a radically altered vehicle according to DVLA.
Finally, whether a reshelled car is as good as a repaired original shell and whether it can still be properly described as a cosworth, RS turbo etc etc is a matter of debate and everyone has different views on the subject. However, that is completely separate to whether it is a) legal and b) complies with DVLA rules on id retention.
Neil
What is legal and what complies with DVLA requirements are not necessarily the same.
A brand new shell can retain the identity of the donor vehicle and as Paul says that's why it comes unstamped because it is a service item. The problem comes in that there is no uniform way to stamp in the 17 digit chassis number. In other words, it's up to the individual bodyshop to use punches of their preferred size and character style. Personally, I would stamp the strut top (legal requirement to have a stamped in number) and leave the floor pan untouched so it can be seen in the future that the vehicle has been reshelled with a brand new replacement bodyshell.
Ringing doesn't have to involve a stolen shell. If I chopped out the chassis numbers from two escorts (both of which I own) and swopped them over, both would be ringers as they are purporting to be something they are not but neither would be stolen.
It is not illegal to ring a car, that is, apply the identity of one car to another (or use a second hand shell to reshell a car if you like). There is no specific offence of ringing. To use my escort example above, both would be ringers but neither would be illegal. If I reshelled a 3 door cosworth with a second hand base shell, that would not be illegal in itself. However (and most importantly), it would not comply with DVLA requirements and would mean the car should go on a Q plate. Even if the base model id is retained, interestingly, it should still be on a q plate as it is a radically altered vehicle (came out the factory as a base and ended up as cosworth spec). There is also a possibility of a deception offence under the Theft Act when selling them on because the ringed base model is being presented as a cosworth when in fact it is not. If it is clearly stated that it has been reshelled with a second hand shell, then there is no deception.
So it is perfectly possible for something to be legal which does not meet the DVLA requirements for id retention. It just means that there is a risk to any future owner that the DVLA could find out and require it to go on a q plate.
Martin is right though - regardless of what the DVLA accepted on the particular occasion mentioned, it was not in accordance with their policy and the car should have had a q plate irrespective of what could be proved about the origins of the second hand replacement shell. Frankly, I am amazed that they allowed it to happen and I think Paul was really lucky on that occasion. I hope it wasn't Gosforth VRO! Standards are sometimes a bit lax. For instance, I once saw the bodytype description on a V5 successfully changed from 4 door saloon to 3 door hatchback. That's how lax the DVLA were. However, it is worth noting that the DVLA cannot legalise something which is illegal and nor can the police. Take for example Durham Police's practice a few years ago of stamping cars which had had their id removed with an 18 digit DURPOL number and supporting q plate applications on that basis - just because the police allowed it could not make (in this case stolen cars) legal.
Something else which will be of interest to a few people on here (and me as an owner of one of these vehicles), if you have a cossie powered Mk3, Mk4 focus, fiesta or whatever, then it should be on a q plate because it is a radically altered vehicle according to DVLA.
Finally, whether a reshelled car is as good as a repaired original shell and whether it can still be properly described as a cosworth, RS turbo etc etc is a matter of debate and everyone has different views on the subject. However, that is completely separate to whether it is a) legal and b) complies with DVLA rules on id retention.
Neil
24-09-2009, 09:14 PM
#158
The last thing i will say is the used shell i used to reshell the 3 door was infact a reshell at some time and had no number stamped into it anywhere
This was the main reason DVLA allowed me to use it ,
Again , I may have been lucky but i did it honestly and with DVLA agreement and was 100% honest with the buyer who was happy to buy a superb condition 3 door at a very good price
This was the main reason DVLA allowed me to use it ,
Again , I may have been lucky but i did it honestly and with DVLA agreement and was 100% honest with the buyer who was happy to buy a superb condition 3 door at a very good price
24-09-2009, 09:17 PM
#159
Regular Contributor
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 260
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ian - I've not reread your original post as it's late now and I want my bed but did you use the same replacement shell as the original? If so, then I think DVLA got it wrong mate, you should have been able to retain the original id. If it was a different bodyshell then that's where the problem arose.
If the shell was the same then there is no need to involve DVLA at all - just get on with it and do the job! Also, you can stamp the shell yourself - there is no law which says any particular person has to do it such as a bodyshop.
If the shell was the same then there is no need to involve DVLA at all - just get on with it and do the job! Also, you can stamp the shell yourself - there is no law which says any particular person has to do it such as a bodyshop.
24-09-2009, 09:23 PM
#160
So let's just say you are right (and I know that bodyshops do what you say, with new shells, but doing doesn't make it right) why then would DVLA not just allow me to stamp the VIN from my donor into my new shell and get on with it as a 1991 car, instead of a 2009 car?
I had owned both cars for years, and the donor had been registered to me for years so plainly nothing hooky going on, but still they insisted on issuing a new VIN and getting confirmation that the new number had been stamped in before registering the car.
I had owned both cars for years, and the donor had been registered to me for years so plainly nothing hooky going on, but still they insisted on issuing a new VIN and getting confirmation that the new number had been stamped in before registering the car.
if you had a old 1991 complete sierra with a shagged shell and found a nos replacement one and reshelled the car using the nos shell i would of just fitted it all and then when looking minty mint got a new mot and carried on from there.
Sure i could try stamping the numbers in the new shells floor but that can look shit and i know i have seen it done, or if you have the receipt for your nos shell just leave it as theres your proof the cars not a wrong un and just been reshelled using a service part as it has a recipt from a ford dealer.