Chip

iTrader: (3)

I doubt the two engines are still knocking about for him to hand me to have a look at, I doubt the budget still exists to pay for the resources I would use to find out, and I doubt that he is still alive either unless his death in 2005 was a rumour, so thats a fairly good selection of reasons.

Benni

Makes sense I guess. By the way, I wasn't being funny at all, was just curious.

Benni.

Benni

You never know - He might do a Dirty Den and turn up at an RSOC meet.

Benni.

foreigneRS

what RSOC meet did dirty den turn up at?

morph

iTrader: (1)

I am disappointed that with the VAST knowledge you have...that you are not able to contact him! no matter if he is dead or alive! why don't you hold a seyounce and see if he will speek to you! maybe you could bring him back and show him the ways!
I'm sure cosworth will have several orginal engines still around so that shouldn't be a problem.
who knows maybe we could have COSWORTH renamed to CHIPSWORTH!

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Morph, dead engines I can often reserect depending on the reason for death, but dead people I cant.

LINCOLN

iTrader: (1)

Ahhh the mythical hundredth of a thou (as in 0.00001 inch) - wow that REALLY is accurate (and unobtainable!)

Chip - know what you meant but you are always a stickler for things being correct.

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Thats the sort of tolerance that modern F1 heads are machined to as far as im aware.

I can get the actual accuracy numbers off a mate of mine who has access to that data from the Mclaren team probably but im sure it was in that ballpark when we spoke about it before.

LINCOLN

iTrader: (1)

Fark me then! Must be machined in a vacuum and on a footing 50ft deep of concrete (or marble)

Chip

iTrader: (3)

LOL

Not in a vacuum but extremely accurate on computer controlled mills that even account for temperature etc as part of the software.

My mate supplies them with the machines, and the normal tolerance for the machine is stupidly close anyway, but they do their own internal QA on it and when it gets to within a tenth of the normal tolerance, they scrap the machine (well pass it off to elsewhere within mercedes, I think they go to the SLR team in fact)

Properly mental stuff the accuracy of modern F1 engines, COS and WORTH would be gobsmacked to see how things are done today, they were literally only halfway between the stone age and modern day in terms of the engineering resources available to them in the 60s/70s, computers have revolutionised what is possible.

When I build engines i try to work to a tenth of a thou tolerance on most things, like piston to bore clearance or journal size etc, luckily I have access to a friend who can accurately measure at this level, as my own basic equipment doesnt allow me to where as his is continually calibrated etc.

panelbeater

is this thread still going on!!! lol

Chip

iTrader: (3)

By definition any thread you reply to is still going on, so that is a strange question as the act of you replying in itself is a continuation.

But yes, to answer your question, there are still interesting things being discussed in amongst all the troll posts like your one.

rst-g

I only wanted to know which was better LOL good read tho!!

panelbeater

jesus chip don't get out of your pram at me! did you not read the ''lol'' and take it in the wrong context???

Benni

He didn't. He came back from the dead. Regardless of where he turns up, if he had faked his own death, he has still done the same thing as Den.This is why I said, he might do a Dirty-Den AND, the and is the turning point. AND, turn up at a meet.

Benni.

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Why on earth would you think I was out of my pram?
Something seemed to confuse you, so I attempted to answer your query, no prams involved.

Chip

iTrader: (3)

To summarise, I think most people are in agreement that both methods have their advantages.

If you had to use ONLY one method though, then my personal opinion is that for racing where the key thing is the full throttle power, then use a set of rollers, and if its for a road car where the key thing is that it actually drives pleasantly, then road map it.

so essentially its application specific which is the most useful of the two methods.

yappstar

Well this went downhill.

I'll make an attempt to ask questions that will bring it back on topic (horror of horrors)

1. Is it a generally held belief that JUST a RR map will not be as drivable on the road as JUST a "Live" Map (ie one that is done on the road)?

2. I see christians point abut being able to hold load sites more accurately using a dyno, but can somebody please explain to me EXACTLY why that hold an advantage over a road map where you apparently cannot do this?

3. If I mapped a car on the road, and an identical one on the dyno (for fuck sake just humor this point, i KNOW they will never be truly identical) but I had more power from the dyno map compared to the road map, at a cost of some drivability, would the dyno mapped car need to be tweaked for say track use, where WOT is often used and the engine is at high revs fairly consistently?

PS dont even say it, i know full well the difference between WOT and high revs, I just cant map very well.

Hope they make some sense. I realise the last question might be dismissed as totally irrelevant as it is an impossible (or near enough without monumental budgets) situation.

I was just going to slag chip off, but I realised I am my own person capable of intelligent thought. And he is patient and knowledgeable enough to spend time answering questions. fair play.

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Thats my opinion yes, you can feel splutters in a car that you cant see on the gauges, and the only way to know they are there is to drive it IMHO.

If you can hold on a site, you can get the AFR to stabilise and then map it exactly so that it is correct.
This is possible on the road too, but only by using the brake to hold the car back which is obviously non ideal.
Im not convinced that it is as useful as christian thinks it is though anyway, I would sooner data log what actually happens during typical acceleration and make sure that the load sites are correct as they are passed through not as they are held.

Make it the same car and map it twice mate for the sake of the arguement

Its a bit of a tricky question to answer as it depends a lot on the car in question, as an example I map a couple of N/A cars that are used for trackdays or events, and TBH when they are driven they are only ever fully on or fully off the throttle most of the time anyway, so transition between throttle angles isnt really very important, but by comparison something like Twitchell's 400bhp or so astra its actually very important HOW it delivers the power and this can only really be achieved by trial and error actually driving it IMHO.

Chip

iTrader: (3)

LOL, yeah, any bandwagon that rolls through PF does seem to end up a bit overcrowded with idiots

Providing its during the day while im paid to be at a PC anyway, ive got endless patience, I only have less when its on my own time

foreigneRS

as long as you know if/what other enrichment might be going on, e.g. based on rate of tps change etc

natehall

iTrader: (2)

Nice

especially when they switch it off

Christian and Beccy

iTrader: (14)

But we can map each site in the way that I described, then carry out runs at various ramp rates and log the results on BOTH the laptop (normal data-logging) and the dyno software (which plots AFR, Boost, ATW power and Tractive effort). We can also see the power it's made with each change, something you could never do on the road.

For example, how do you live map a timing curve on the road? It's a genuine question by the way as I am interested. We never really found a way to optimise it as effectively as we do on the dyno when we were road mapping.

Also, as a sidenote, Detonation absolutely rings out in our workshop and with 3 of us that know what to listen for, thats another added bonus of mapping in a workshop as opposed to on the road.

morph

iTrader: (1)

So to conclude this matter....A car mapped on the Rollers...sorry LIVE mapped on the rollers with cell transitions taken into account and then fine tuned on the road is the perfect way! sounds good to me!
Is it also true that running a bigger processor in an ecu will make the mapping alot better?
and if it is true then the question is : which ecu has the faster processor?

Chip

iTrader: (3)

I agree that for chasing every last BHP, the dyno is king, but you cant tell what the car FEELS like on the dyno, slight splutters and hesitations dont show up well enough on screen but when you are in the car they are very noticeable.

Essentially the tecnnique involves lots of education guesses, an then of course det checking it, which is very hard to do for every single possible cell, so you end up having "safe guesses" in the cells which its very difficult to visit, you then except that on that rare occasion when you are on a steepdownhill at a held 5% throttle at 6000rpm, the car is less efficient than it could be.
As I also mentioned earlier in the thread too, with regards to turbo cars you can hit peak power on the road as its almost invariably at the most ignition you can get into it without det, but in the case of a very low comp or low boost turbo or an N/A car I dont beleive you can ever be confident you have made every last BHP the way you can on the rollers.


When I map a car, I know if it is detonation or not because I have det cans on, I hear only the engine and box, not the massive fan cooling the rollers or the dotmartix printer in reception or any other workshop noises, I dont beleive at all that relying on hearing det ringing around the workshop is better than wearing det cans to listen to it.

lead_foot

iTrader: (1)

In theory yes but its a better idea to get/use and ECU based upon who is mapping it rather than the speed of the processor. A mapping god using a 8x8 resolution map and basic functions will be get alot better results (drivability/power) than a some joe bloggs than knows abit about computer using a huge resolution map and make the tea while find the rest of the numbers to PI.

Sorry off topic.

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Yes or vice versa for that matter which is what I do, I map on the road, then tweak the full power stuff on the rollers, well I do where the person who's car I am mapping is concerned with every last BHP anyway, which I find most people actually are NOT really bothered about funnily enough!
"Safe" seems to be the most important thing people care about IME!

No, not true at all, providing the ECU can keep up, having more spare cycles or not on the processor is irrelevant IMHO
Its not true IMHO

I think maybe you confused resolution with processing power?

Resolution is about the size of the table, not the speed of the processor.

More resolution generally is a good thing but would eventually get to the stage it would be so much detail that you would never bother to map it that far as time would run out.
Most modern ECU's have more than enough resolution for what I want to do I find, its only the older stuff that doesnt.

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Resolution and processing power are NOT the same thing mate.

You are replying about resolution quite accurately, but saying its ref the processor speed which it isnt.

Its more about memory than speed.

Lambchop

iTrader: (1)

After seeing the top title i was going to say a Range Rover but clearly i got the wrong end of the stick?





i PROPER laughed out loud at that and i've read it a couple of times since and it's funny as fuck

Christian and Beccy

iTrader: (14)

Chip, as much as I don't want to fuel this 'war', your reference to 'safe guesses' worries me.

In a conversation where we are discussing the most effective form of mapping, with me suggesting that we can measure VERY accurately the effectiveness of EVERY change and map to peak power, which in my experience, could very easily be a long way from detonation, you are, by your own admission suggesting that a road-mapped engine is taken to det, then backed off.

See, the thing is, thats how we used to do it when we mapped on the road, but the dyno has opened up the window of opportunity to run a car potentially at less boost than a road-mapped car for the same power and/or with a very effectively optimised timing curve.

OK, so it could be argued that you may weed out minor driveability glitches on the road, but I'd still argue that the dyno map wins in every way where power is concerned and carries the bonus that no-one gets killed or hurt for sure.

My comment about hearing det is one that you could only doubt by being here. Trust me, you can hear it SO clearly and unmistakably. If the person mapping the car doesn't hear it (unlikely), then the chances are someone else will and can take appropriate action. Call it an added perk.

LHD220Turbo

iTrader: (4)

despite all the bandwagon jumpers who feel the need to belittle people, i've found this thread really useful

i understand the basics of mapping, but amoungst the bitching there is lots of good stuff here which i didnt know about

good thread

Matt

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Christian, you will see no argument from me from your comments there, I agree with them.

Well other than I dont think its a good idea if the person making the car relies on someone who is making a cup of tea to put down the kettle and come and tell them that there is Det

The added bonus of mapping on the rollers, is that often you dont ever get to det in the first place, which I think is what you were hinted at and didnt really mention properly there.


Say an engine (like the N/A rally car I mentioned the other day) makes peak power at 30 degrees of advance, but dets only when it gets to 40 degrees.

If you start at 20 degrees on the rollers and keep winding on the ignition until you see a drop in power, you will get to 30, then when you get to 32 you will say "thats it, we have passed peak power/torque, back we go" and the engine wont have ever seen any potentially damaging detonation in the first place.

On the road I only have 2 choices with it, stop at the point where I think "it cant possibly need any more than that" or keep going right to det, neither of which is ideal.

Which is why on that particuar car we will be going to the rollers to do the WOT ignition curve as I am well aware that I absolutely CANNOT get it right on the road, and neither can anyone else.

You are also correct to be concerned about road mappers having to make "best guesses" but TBH so do you, I will really struggle to belive you if you tell me that every car that goes on your rollers you map every single cell on it to be optimum, its just not econommically viable to do so.

Christian and Beccy

iTrader: (14)

Chip, regarding your comment about the person making the tea, surely that's more reliable than expecting Maud on her way back from Sainsburys to catch up to you at the next set of traffic lights and tap on the window and say.....

"Young man, I heard mild pre-ignition when you were at around 6000rpm on that last acceleration run, now excuse me I must get on, my buns will burn"



I rest my case.

CalibreDan

My friends S14 was road mapped using a G-Meter to show up MBT and changes. Having it mapped on the rollers and compared to the unmapped run, it only picked up an additional 6bhp (IIRC, I'll get the graphs) at the top and there was a small dip in the midrange.

Obviously, the dip could have been down to the mapping, but it goes to show you CAN get fairly close on the road.

Chip

iTrader: (3)

CalibreDan, its surprising how good those G meters can be, but they do NOT allow you to hold a cell and test the power.

CalibreDan

Indeed - Was just throwing more fuel in the fire

Was quite impressed when he told me about it all though, obviously not as good as having the curve mapped on the rollers but as a set of educated guesses through the range I was surprised

Chip

iTrader: (3)

It closes the gap even more between the two yes mate, although its a lot more cumbersome to use, as you need to keep replicating the circumstances, ie equally flat road etc.