RR or live map???
11-05-2009, 07:03 AM
#6
Here we go again LOL.
Both mine (171mph 350bhp CVH) and Gary's (700bhp Evo) are mapped 100% on the Rolling Road. Ross W's Evo was mapped 100% on the Rolling Road too, that made 775bhp and won the MLR 30-130 event this year. Also, Ken's LS2 V8 200SX, which made 665bhp (65bhp above the 'bullshit' American figure we never expected to hit!!) a few weeks ago was mapped totally on the Rollers too. Very few of our cars have any road mapping atall.
You cannot effectively map big power cars on the road, it's always a comprimised map. Whereas on the Dyno, you can force the engine into all kinds of different load scenario's to make sure that it is as safe as it needs to be. There is just as much chance of the load varying on the road with headwinds, hills etc.
This is bound to turn into a multi-page thread. LOL.
Both mine (171mph 350bhp CVH) and Gary's (700bhp Evo) are mapped 100% on the Rolling Road. Ross W's Evo was mapped 100% on the Rolling Road too, that made 775bhp and won the MLR 30-130 event this year. Also, Ken's LS2 V8 200SX, which made 665bhp (65bhp above the 'bullshit' American figure we never expected to hit!!) a few weeks ago was mapped totally on the Rollers too. Very few of our cars have any road mapping atall.
You cannot effectively map big power cars on the road, it's always a comprimised map. Whereas on the Dyno, you can force the engine into all kinds of different load scenario's to make sure that it is as safe as it needs to be. There is just as much chance of the load varying on the road with headwinds, hills etc.
This is bound to turn into a multi-page thread. LOL.
11-05-2009, 07:07 AM
#7
Also, 'live mapping' occurs both on the road and the rollers. Let's get the definition straight. The term 'live map' means to write to an ECU 'live', in other words the entries you make have an immediate effect. Alot of management systems (particularly OEM ones) don't allow this, you have to do a run, make the changes to a table, then burn the data to a chip (or Eprom). That isn't live mapping, whether it happens on the Rollers or the road.
Any ECU that can be written to and the changes take effect as they happen is being 'live mapped', whether it happens on the road, rollers, engine dyno or wherever.
Any ECU that can be written to and the changes take effect as they happen is being 'live mapped', whether it happens on the road, rollers, engine dyno or wherever.
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11-05-2009, 07:19 AM
#8
PassionFord Post Troll
I'm with Cristian on this one.
You need the quantitive feedback that a dyno gives you to determine optimum ignition advance.
I have mapped all my cars on the road and they all drive well, but if i had the cash to buy a dyno that is where they would be mapped.
You need the quantitive feedback that a dyno gives you to determine optimum ignition advance.
I have mapped all my cars on the road and they all drive well, but if i had the cash to buy a dyno that is where they would be mapped.
11-05-2009, 09:35 AM
#12
The problem with a road map, is you CANNOT do the job properly on some cars.
If you road map a car, all you can do is end up a safety margin away from detonation.
Now on a turbo car, typically that will be the optimum for power, but on many N/A cars you will see peak torque long before detonation occurs, and potentially it will then drop off as you further increase the ignition timing before det occurs too.
So consequently its impossible to map for peak torque/power without a mechanism for accurately measuring the power output through the rev range.
The same is true for mixture, there is not a magic value that works to give you the best power in all circumstances, sure there is a theoritical max, but in practice often slightly richer or slightly leaner than that can be the optimum for certain engines.
This also cannot be got through road mapping as you cant measure accurately enough what the power output is to know which is the optimum.
Again, on a turbo car, not really an issue as the final value after mapping tends to be dictated more by safety than by what would give every last BHP.
With all that said, I personally believe that you cannot achieve proper drivability on a set of rollers, the last thing I always do when road mapping a car is to ask the person in question to drive it how they normally drive it, to make absolutely sure that it is perfectly mannered for their use of the car, Im not convinced you can do that on the rollers.
So IMHO the only way to get the optimum results, especially if talking about a variety of cars, is a combination of the two.
If you road map a car, all you can do is end up a safety margin away from detonation.
Now on a turbo car, typically that will be the optimum for power, but on many N/A cars you will see peak torque long before detonation occurs, and potentially it will then drop off as you further increase the ignition timing before det occurs too.
So consequently its impossible to map for peak torque/power without a mechanism for accurately measuring the power output through the rev range.
The same is true for mixture, there is not a magic value that works to give you the best power in all circumstances, sure there is a theoritical max, but in practice often slightly richer or slightly leaner than that can be the optimum for certain engines.
This also cannot be got through road mapping as you cant measure accurately enough what the power output is to know which is the optimum.
Again, on a turbo car, not really an issue as the final value after mapping tends to be dictated more by safety than by what would give every last BHP.
With all that said, I personally believe that you cannot achieve proper drivability on a set of rollers, the last thing I always do when road mapping a car is to ask the person in question to drive it how they normally drive it, to make absolutely sure that it is perfectly mannered for their use of the car, Im not convinced you can do that on the rollers.
So IMHO the only way to get the optimum results, especially if talking about a variety of cars, is a combination of the two.
Last edited by Chip; 11-05-2009 at 09:36 AM.
11-05-2009, 09:46 AM
#13
well i'm going to have to say road mapped, cause lets face it there are some cars with big power numbers that drive shite compared to others with less of a power figure but are just as quick.
11-05-2009, 09:58 AM
#14
We monitor air temps and coolant temps and if either rise beyond an acceptable 'window', the run stops.
I'll try and do a video one day to show how accurately we can reach each and every load site on the rollers. There is ABSOLUTELY NO WAY you could ever do that on the road and only by reaching each load site accurately can you map it effectively. As soon as you begin to approach the next site in and direction, the ECU will interpolate the values. It takes a few seconds to stabilise, even on the dyno. On the road, to reach one load site accurately would take quite some distance and there may be 200 or more of these to do. Trust me, mapping on the road is comprimised.
Also, as has been said earlier, what reference do you have on the road as to whether timing changes have had an effect?
11-05-2009, 10:07 AM
#16
Everyone in favour of road mapping always picks on the size of the fan. Our fan flows 35000CFM through a tapered nozzle, to increase air-speed.
We monitor air temps and coolant temps and if either rise beyond an acceptable 'window', the run stops.
I'll try and do a video one day to show how accurately we can reach each and every load site on the rollers. There is ABSOLUTELY NO WAY you could ever do that on the road and only by reaching each load site accurately can you map it effectively. As soon as you begin to approach the next site in and direction, the ECU will interpolate the values. It takes a few seconds to stabilise, even on the dyno. On the road, to reach one load site accurately would take quite some distance and there may be 200 or more of these to do. Trust me, mapping on the road is comprimised.
Also, as has been said earlier, what reference do you have on the road as to whether timing changes have had an effect?
We monitor air temps and coolant temps and if either rise beyond an acceptable 'window', the run stops.
I'll try and do a video one day to show how accurately we can reach each and every load site on the rollers. There is ABSOLUTELY NO WAY you could ever do that on the road and only by reaching each load site accurately can you map it effectively. As soon as you begin to approach the next site in and direction, the ECU will interpolate the values. It takes a few seconds to stabilise, even on the dyno. On the road, to reach one load site accurately would take quite some distance and there may be 200 or more of these to do. Trust me, mapping on the road is comprimised.
Also, as has been said earlier, what reference do you have on the road as to whether timing changes have had an effect?
Just mapping each cell isnt good enough IMHO, its the transition between cells that is most important, its VERY rare on the road you are in one specific cell, so why focus on that when on the rollers?
I see too many tuners who think that all you have to do is fill in each number in a grid on a set of rollers and it will be mapped, when in fact its exactly this that can lead to drivability problems, far too many people out there with rolling roads have exactly the attitude that comes across in your post, and its this which leads to such shocking results a lot of the time, especially if working with an older ECU which has poor resolution in terms of the number of cell sites available to the mapper.
You could spend all day with your rollers on a 8*8 grid getting every single cell site exactly perfect on an older ecu, and it will still drive like a sack of shit if those sites arent perfectly positioned, where as if its mapped on the road by someone like stu or karl, it will drive perfectly.
This is the problem with people who get hold of rolling roads and suddenly think they are an expert just cause they have bought an expensive peice of equipment, when in fact its experience that counts.
You come across as very much "all the gear and no idea" compared to someone like Stu IMHO
11-05-2009, 10:08 AM
#17
i'm not against rr mapping as i've never had it done and i don't do that type of work or know enough to do it. but i have had one road mapped and been around a fair few that have.
11-05-2009, 10:10 AM
#18
similar specced engines chip, some always produce more an some provide less. its a fact of life. no-one can say that with x part and x things done to this and x thing done to that will produce x power its always variable. just as i said that some drive better than others.
As per my post above, its not rolling roads that are the problems, its people who dont understand tuning engines who rely on them to do the work for them.
A good mapper should understand enough to realise the limitations of a rolling road and always include a testdrive as part of the map, IMHO you cant possibly claim a car is mapped and ready to drive if you havent driven it to test it is finished correctly.
Last edited by Chip; 11-05-2009 at 10:12 AM.
11-05-2009, 10:14 AM
#19
well i think we'll agree to dis-agree on that one! i've had new cars on the jig measured up with no damage what so ever and all measured up with differences, they all came off the same production line at the factory. its called variables
11-05-2009, 10:21 AM
#20
If you blueprint an engine you manage those variables more accurately to the point that they arent variables anymore they are fixed values.
If you dont even understand the basics, it may be better to just read threads rather than write in them for a while IMHO thats what I always do if its a subject I know nothing about.
11-05-2009, 10:29 AM
#21
Chip, I don't have any flag to wave on here, we do next-to-no Ford mapping.
You can't map inbetween the cells, all you can do is take into account how the ECU interpolates and map the values of the cells accordingly. Thats what I was getting at.
Compared to being able to do neither on the road. You certainly can't hit a cell accurately, let alone consider interpolation.
All that said, VERY detailed and faultless mapping takes OEM months with teams of mappers, so it's all a comprimise anyway to suggest you can do the same in one day (or in the case of most tuner alot less).
We spend alot more time than most on the off-boost mapping and achieve good driveability. We usually keep a car thats having a full-map for 2 days at least so that we can check it right through the heat cycle too. Remember I get to see alot of maps and compare them to standard default maps and it never ceases to amaze me how many so-called tuners do nothing to the map other than idle and full power.
You can't map inbetween the cells, all you can do is take into account how the ECU interpolates and map the values of the cells accordingly. Thats what I was getting at.
Compared to being able to do neither on the road. You certainly can't hit a cell accurately, let alone consider interpolation.
All that said, VERY detailed and faultless mapping takes OEM months with teams of mappers, so it's all a comprimise anyway to suggest you can do the same in one day (or in the case of most tuner alot less).
We spend alot more time than most on the off-boost mapping and achieve good driveability. We usually keep a car thats having a full-map for 2 days at least so that we can check it right through the heat cycle too. Remember I get to see alot of maps and compare them to standard default maps and it never ceases to amaze me how many so-called tuners do nothing to the map other than idle and full power.
11-05-2009, 10:39 AM
#22
Its repositioning the cells in order to better account for the natural VE curve of the engine that is critical when mapping a lower resolution map, and you absolutely cannot do that by just mapping held values, you need to drive the thing!
Compared to being able to do neither on the road. You certainly can't hit a cell accurately, let alone consider interpolation.
All that said, VERY detailed and faultless mapping takes OEM months with teams of mappers, so it's all a comprimise anyway to suggest you can do the same in one day (or in the case of most tuner alot less).
We spend alot more time than most on the off-boost mapping and achieve good driveability. We usually keep a car thats having a full-map for 2 days at least so that we can check it right through the heat cycle too. Remember I get to see alot of maps and compare them to standard default maps and it never ceases to amaze me how many so-called tuners do nothing to the map other than idle and full power.
11-05-2009, 10:44 AM
#23
Chip, unlike most others, we spent 2 years road-mapping before investing in a Dyno, so we have experience of both and can therefore comment on both. Most road mappers only have experience of that.
We were discussing at that time Road vs Dyno mapping and just because I referred to mapping each individual cell, doesn't mean thats all we do.
You really are a tit, Chip. I don't know why anybody else bothers to have an opinion, when you are clearly the oracle. Well, you and Tabetha.
We were discussing at that time Road vs Dyno mapping and just because I referred to mapping each individual cell, doesn't mean thats all we do.
You really are a tit, Chip. I don't know why anybody else bothers to have an opinion, when you are clearly the oracle. Well, you and Tabetha.
11-05-2009, 10:49 AM
#24
So what elso do you then then?
You really are a tit, Chip. I don't know why anybody else bothers to have an opinion, when you are clearly the oracle. Well, you and Tabetha.
I am quite happy for people to scrutinise what I am saying and reply accordingly, if you arent then forums arent really for you and you should stick to just spouting technical half truths at customers who know no better than to take your word for it, but a technical discussion isnt the place for such sales pitch nonsense IMHO and I make no apologies for picking you up on it.
If you want to join in with useful info then do so, if you want to join in with half truths then expect them to be criticised as they are of little or no value to people trying to learn this forum IMHO where as I make sure that my posts are, by only commenting on things I know about, and by commenting accurately when I do so.
Last edited by Chip; 11-05-2009 at 10:52 AM.
11-05-2009, 10:52 AM
#25
Chip, if I said I had built my engine but had only discussed tightening the main bearing caps up, would that suggest that I left the big-ends loose?
There is an awful lot of pre-calibration that happens before the car even goes near the dyno (or the road, in that case). It's not relevant to a discussion about road vs dyno mapping. Is it?
There is an awful lot of pre-calibration that happens before the car even goes near the dyno (or the road, in that case). It's not relevant to a discussion about road vs dyno mapping. Is it?
11-05-2009, 10:53 AM
#26
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Christian, slightly off topic - have you had an MR2 turbo, very high spec, in your place at some point for a map and he went away very un happy and went and got it done again somewhere else? I could be wrong just that i was speakin to my mate last weekend!
11-05-2009, 10:55 AM
#27
There is an awful lot of pre-calibration that happens before the car even goes near the dyno (or the road, in that case). It's not relevant to a discussion about road vs dyno mapping. Is it?
11-05-2009, 10:57 AM
#28
The only MR2 Turbo I can recall having worked on was a Blue one that had the head-gasket replaced.
We can't really map them and are open and honest about that as we only have a frontal fan and won't map on the road.
I'd appreciate it if you could find the details out and clear this one up, it makes us look bad. I know for a fact that we haven't mapped an MR2.
11-05-2009, 11:00 AM
#29
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Not that I know of?
The only MR2 Turbo I can recall having worked on was a Blue one that had the head-gasket replaced.
We can't really map them and are open and honest about that as we only have a frontal fan and won't map on the road.
I'd appreciate it if you could find the details out and clear this one up, it makes us look bad. I know for a fact that we haven't mapped an MR2.
The only MR2 Turbo I can recall having worked on was a Blue one that had the head-gasket replaced.
We can't really map them and are open and honest about that as we only have a frontal fan and won't map on the road.
I'd appreciate it if you could find the details out and clear this one up, it makes us look bad. I know for a fact that we haven't mapped an MR2.
11-05-2009, 11:06 AM
#32
LOTS of rolling road operators, are as ignorant to proper road mapping and its advantages over a set of rollers as Christian comes across as being with his replies in this thread
Disclaimer: which I would just like to state might be in his case because he is choosing to pretend to be clueless when he isnt, as apparently from his reply above that may be the case so I dont want to say for certain he doesnt know what he is doing, but that certainly comes across like its the case here
There are loads of rolling road operators out there who think that tuning a car is just about having a grid of required values in front of you, and once you have filled them in you have finished your job.
They totally miss the effects of moving between the cells and the fact that most of the time when you are driving a car you are NOT doing so on a held load site, in fact about the only time that you are is when driving on cruise control on a perfectly flat road.
11-05-2009, 11:08 AM
#33
On a turbo car, changing the boost changes the VE, so you dont need to better the map for existing VE values in order to improve things, you just need to put a half decent value again the new VE.
Which is why even fairly clueless people can get reasonable gains on most turbo cars when mapping them!
11-05-2009, 11:25 AM
#34
I assume you were totally unable to comprehend my comment about budget then.
If you blueprint an engine you manage those variables more accurately to the point that they arent variables anymore they are fixed values.
If you dont even understand the basics, it may be better to just read threads rather than write in them for a while IMHO thats what I always do if its a subject I know nothing about.
If you blueprint an engine you manage those variables more accurately to the point that they arent variables anymore they are fixed values.
If you dont even understand the basics, it may be better to just read threads rather than write in them for a while IMHO thats what I always do if its a subject I know nothing about.
11-05-2009, 11:41 AM
#37
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It depends entirely on the application, for example a Vauxhall 2.0 16v XE engine comes from the factory with a very good map on it, if you dont change any mechanical parts at all to change the VE of the engine, then remapping it is more or less pointless, the gains will be tiny.
On a turbo car, changing the boost changes the VE, so you dont need to better the map for existing VE values in order to improve things, you just need to put a half decent value again the new VE.
Which is why even fairly clueless people can get reasonable gains on most turbo cars when mapping them!
On a turbo car, changing the boost changes the VE, so you dont need to better the map for existing VE values in order to improve things, you just need to put a half decent value again the new VE.
Which is why even fairly clueless people can get reasonable gains on most turbo cars when mapping them!
11-05-2009, 11:50 AM
#38
Most modern N/A cars there is very little to gain though from a remap alone from what I have seen, as the maps are generally good anyway.
11-05-2009, 12:08 PM
#39
Testing the future
