Martin-Hadland

iTrader: (2)

Find the hidden 'reyland' stamp!!

Its Dave

iTrader: (4)

Yes that would be good, what you like with a set of spanners

Will drop you a PM

Miller 3

iTrader: (4)

I fix lorries for a living Dave so i should be ok lol

J1mbo

iTrader: (1)

chip, that is a basic requirments of after market ecu's nowasdays isnt it ?!

also, is the autronic valve better than air/air ?

ive mapped t6 boost maps and the control was perfect, (on air injectors) it stays exactly where you want it

also, didnt the indy cars use air injectors ?

they were set to hold for example 6.8psi as the blow off valve would go off at 7psi and obviously empty the system so losing ground to the other cars surely you cant get more precise than this



dave, theres a pm on your way

Its Dave

iTrader: (4)

Replyed

Andy_R

iTrader: (3)

Impressive power Dave, hope all go's well and your enjoying it in car before long. Its been a long haul! I'm sure it will be worth the wait though.

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Kind of, several of them dont implement it very well though, the autronic is extremely configurable on the boost control side you can 3d map it against anything you want.

J1mbo

iTrader: (1)

cool, ill have to take a peek at your nova's autronic some time

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Martin-Hadland

iTrader: (2)

Come on Chip we need to know exactly what it can take into account of for boost contol so we can compare

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Any parameter the ecu can see, compared against any other parameter the ecu can see, then if you wish you can take the resultant value, and use it as an input to another table.

So for example, you can map the boost so its based on throttle angle and rpm, but then you can also vary it according to intake temp as well if you wish.


If you do it throttle angle and rpm based, it means you can make it so that you have a curve at each setpoint, so that you get a totally flat torque curve.

So you could have 25% throttle = 250lbft all the way up
50% throttle = 350lbft all the way up
75% throttle = 450lbft all the way up
The 100% throttle being as much as its got.

To get 350lbft all the way up, you might have 1 bar at some rpm points, and 1.3 rpm at others, and everything in between.


Or if you want to just have a fixed amount of boost per throttle angle you can do that instead.


On Robs astra for example, it has boost related to throttle angle, but at the top of the rev range where the VE is starting to drop off, it increases the boost slightly to compensate to keep the torque curve as flat as possible.

J1mbo

iTrader: (1)

i think its rather like pectel

im guessing so correct me chip, autronic had one "page" to do all the boost control

eg boost related throttle boost related revs, so the can all be mapped in correlation with each other

pectel has different screens, it can be mapped boost/throttle and boost/revs

just not at the same time, they have seperate mapping screens ?

Chip

iTrader: (3)

The autronic is very flexible, you can setup one page (table is a better term for it in this context though TBH mate) so that it has an output which is a number off a 3d table based on 2 parameters, and instead of using this value directly, you can put it into a variable within the ecu, you can then use that as a direct input on another table.
So they arent just corrections, you can acutally build up a 4d or 5d table if you wish.

Its this use of user definable variables that exist purely within the software (ie they have no physical pin) that can be the output from one table and then input to another, that is particuarly flexible.

J1mbo

iTrader: (1)

this does sound all good, but necessary ???

wouldnt the basic boost control like boost/revs and boost/throttle angle be enough ?

what have you mapped your boost in connection with ? throttle and rpm or have you gone in depth with yours ?

jim

Chip

iTrader: (3)

This isnt quite a definitive list as I couldnt screen grab any bigger resolution on this laptop, but this shows some of the available parameters.
(in fact it shows a little over a quarter of the available choices for each axis)



You can set any one to be X axis, then any one to be the Y axis.

You can then take the output from that table if you wish, and use it as an input to another table as the X axis, and the Y axis could then be the output from a further 3D table with two other physical or software parameters on it.

It really is more or less infinately flexible in this respect.

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Ive not mapped my car yet mate, still got to put the new gearbox in it yet.

When I do so though, I will map it based on a combination of 4 values
Water temp (so I dont get full boost until the engine is up to temp)
A switch in the car (so I can choose a high or low resolution for the throttle)
TPS (this will essentially be combined with the switch to form the user request element of the table, so i'll have one table TPS versus the Switch with an output from that to give the torque request essentially)
RPM (as different boost is required at different rpm points in order to give a particular torque value)

J1mbo

iTrader: (1)

ahh i see, thought you had mapped it !

they seem a good choice of things to choose

just one complaint,

your terminology when explaining things could be a little more user friendly
im (only !) just about getting all of it

Chip

iTrader: (3)

TBH mate, im trying my best to explain it in laymans terms, but its not very easy to do so in a post on the internet without it going on for hundreds of lines and then you'll just not bother to read it all, so im trying to pitch it at a level you should just about get.

Terms like "user request" seem pretty obvious to me TBH, its what the user wants, ie a bit of acceleration or a lot to put it in REALLY simple terms, lol

J1mbo

iTrader: (1)

i would read it chip as im intriqued in things like this !

i also understand it, im just thinking of others who want to read and understand, but your doing a good job lol

Chip

iTrader: (3)

TBH, if people have no experience of mapping or some other form of calibration or programming of computer software, they have very little odds of understanding it off a few forum posts, they would be better off reading a book on the subject I would imagine.
Some things are a bit too big a subject for a forum thread IMHO

Chip

iTrader: (3)

PS

And if its just mainly for your benefit, Id be better off chatting to you about it on the phone or over a pint, far easier than all this typing, lol

J1mbo

iTrader: (1)

yeah for my benefit tbh, im still learning LOL

next time the nova is out ill have to come have a chat about the mapping on autronic, it seems to be much different to what im used to and its interesting to learn about the different ways each company does things

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Ok mate.

Fingers crossed the nova's hardware lets me make use of it, as ultimately you are always limited by that!
For example on Rob's astra, the boost control was perfect on his old manifold, but when he got a different spec one and a different turbo hotside, he now finds he gets boost creep at the top end, and there is nothing I can do about it as it does it even when running wastegate spring pressure, so is obviously limited by the wastegate outlet on the manifold's flow potential, no ecu can change that, so it might be a while before I have bugs like that ironed out on my car, as I obvously dont yet know what they will be as ive never had it running hard enough to find out yet.

MikeR

I thought your was done a few years back?

Mike

yappstar

This page is awesome, nice one chip and jim, good convo

saph4be

CHIP well worded i can understand that quite well interesting stuff

Rick

Chip, i mentioned this on another post but not sure if you saw it.

I haven't used the 3d boost control yet but i can see a flaw with it at the moment. Cruising in 5th, i can give a small amount of thottle, the boost comes in slowly but isn't limited, this is great for overtaking on the motorway when you don't want to blast past.

With a throttle vs rpm map, you are going to lose this. If I were to set 20% throttle to a bar of boost, i'm going to need to be heavier on the throttle - it will likely make the car feel flatter. Also, what about spool up? A big turbo, 2nd gear and you want boost asap, but not 'full' boost. So, you limit the boost using only 50% throttle - which is great, but 50% throttle is going to increase lag slightly. You could of course use full throttle, then as soon as it kicks come back off, but this ckind of defeates the object and doesn't help the 5th gear driveability issue.

The Apexi AVCR seems to be the better solution if it works in practice - gear based and rpm bases boost - keep your foot in and everything is done for you.

Rick.

foreigneRS

in your motorway scenario the boost that you would get is 'limited' anyway by the throttle. i don't see a difference

and your 2nd gear scenario, if you want boost asap then why aren't you using full throttle?

Rick

Boosr isn't limited by the throttle enough in 5th gear. because the engine is loaded, it's very easy to make boost on part throttle - this isn't going to be the same on all engine specs.

Full throttle will lead to max boost and just spin up the wheels.

Rick.

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Rick, the autronic can do gear/speed based boost anyway, you have RPM set points at which the map switches, so it sounds like you just arent using it correctly if you are failing to achieve that, in the same way that I mentioned you can change the resolution based on a switch, you can change it based on a gear/speed if you wish.
So in that scenario, you would simply use the 2nd half of the throttle travel only, so 50% throttle would be your low boost, and 100% would be your highest boost, and you can still choose any point in between it just involves smaller movements of the throttle.

But yes you are correct that if doing it the way you mention on a basic 3d map and you want quick spool but then only small boost, you simply push your foot down further to aid spool then back off to the boost that you want. Which works fine anyway IME

Im not aware of anything at all that the apexi can do which the autronic cant.

Rick

Chip, i've not even looked at it yet - if it does gear based than that's all good

Chip

iTrader: (3)

It can do ANYTHING based mate if you want

But gears are explicitly catered for via the map switching, you set 3 setpoints of speed to swap between them, have a look at the boost setpoint options in the menu.

Rod-Tarry

Mines set at 'balls out' for all scenarios . Cant believe all this limiting caper surely if you stick an air-pump on your engine you need to use it not limit it.

Chip

iTrader: (3)

If you had ever done a trackday, you might realise the importance of limiting the amount of power that you have when coming out of a bend, if your tyres are already very near to their grip limit through cornering forces, there is very little left to accelerate with initially. Especially in a non 4wd car.

So a progressive power delivery is very important.

If all you want to do is bang up and down an airfield in a straight line though, im sure you are correct that balls out is the way to go.

CossieRich

iTrader: (1)

Chip,

Before i pester Mark. Can my vipec do that boost v rpm stuff?

foreigneRS

the old turkey skin will be at risk from fire though. can you get a nomex nad sack cover?

Chip

iTrader: (3)

I would imagine given the people involved in writing the Vipec software that it has similar functions but Ive not ever mapped one and only ever had a brief look at the software, will have a proper look sometime for you mate, as not got it on my work pc only my laptop.

CossieRich

iTrader: (1)

cheers Chippa

Mark Shead

Head back on, New sump on and ready tomorrow

Mark

Its Dave

iTrader: (4)

Wow nice one Mark


See you tomorrow


Cheers