Yums Dyno Day Today **Result's page 2 & 3**
#204
B1mbo
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And so it should be, Mark invested nearly twenty seconds of his time entering the values for it. ![Surprised](https://passionford.com/forum/images/smilies/bigcry.gif)
It can do a LOT better than that mate, that was literally just to get it into the right ballpark.
In the car it can also be set so that you get boost based on throttle angle, which can make it VERY easy to drive, even with such monster power, none of the normal cossie problems of you give it 25% throttle and once its spooled you get full boost anyway!
The boost control on SM4 is just superb!
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It can do a LOT better than that mate, that was literally just to get it into the right ballpark.
In the car it can also be set so that you get boost based on throttle angle, which can make it VERY easy to drive, even with such monster power, none of the normal cossie problems of you give it 25% throttle and once its spooled you get full boost anyway!
The boost control on SM4 is just superb!
chip, that is a basic requirments of after market ecu's nowasdays isnt it ?!
also, is the autronic valve better than air/air ?
ive mapped t6 boost maps and the control was perfect, (on air injectors) it stays exactly where you want it
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also, didnt the indy cars use air injectors ?
they were set to hold for example 6.8psi as the blow off valve would go off at 7psi and obviously empty the system so losing ground to the other cars
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dave, theres a pm on your way
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Last edited by J1mbo; 22-04-2009 at 10:41 PM.
#211
*** Sierra RS Custard ***
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So for example, you can map the boost so its based on throttle angle and rpm, but then you can also vary it according to intake temp as well if you wish.
If you do it throttle angle and rpm based, it means you can make it so that you have a curve at each setpoint, so that you get a totally flat torque curve.
So you could have 25% throttle = 250lbft all the way up
50% throttle = 350lbft all the way up
75% throttle = 450lbft all the way up
The 100% throttle being as much as its got.
To get 350lbft all the way up, you might have 1 bar at some rpm points, and 1.3 rpm at others, and everything in between.
Or if you want to just have a fixed amount of boost per throttle angle you can do that instead.
On Robs astra for example, it has boost related to throttle angle, but at the top of the rev range where the VE is starting to drop off, it increases the boost slightly to compensate to keep the torque curve as flat as possible.
#212
B1mbo
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i think its rather like pectel
im guessing so correct me chip, autronic had one "page" to do all the boost control
eg boost related throttle boost related revs, so the can all be mapped in correlation with each other
pectel has different screens, it can be mapped boost/throttle and boost/revs
just not at the same time, they have seperate mapping screens ?
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#213
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i think its rather like pectel
im guessing so correct me chip, autronic had one "page" to do all the boost control
eg boost related throttle boost related revs, so the can all be mapped in correlation with each other
pectel has different screens, it can be mapped boost/throttle and boost/revs
just not at the same time, they have seperate mapping screens ?![Top](https://passionford.com/forum/images/smilies/smile011.gif)
im guessing so correct me chip, autronic had one "page" to do all the boost control
eg boost related throttle boost related revs, so the can all be mapped in correlation with each other
pectel has different screens, it can be mapped boost/throttle and boost/revs
just not at the same time, they have seperate mapping screens ?
![Top](https://passionford.com/forum/images/smilies/smile011.gif)
The autronic is very flexible, you can setup one page (table is a better term for it in this context though TBH mate) so that it has an output which is a number off a 3d table based on 2 parameters, and instead of using this value directly, you can put it into a variable within the ecu, you can then use that as a direct input on another table.
So they arent just corrections, you can acutally build up a 4d or 5d table if you wish.
Its this use of user definable variables that exist purely within the software (ie they have no physical pin) that can be the output from one table and then input to another, that is particuarly flexible.
#214
B1mbo
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The autronic is very flexible, you can setup one page (table is a better term for it in this context though TBH mate) so that it has an output which is a number off a 3d table based on 2 parameters, and instead of using this value directly, you can put it into a variable within the ecu, you can then use that as a direct input on another table.
So they arent just corrections, you can acutally build up a 4d or 5d table if you wish.
Its this use of user definable variables that exist purely within the software (ie they have no physical pin) that can be the output from one table and then input to another, that is particuarly flexible.
So they arent just corrections, you can acutally build up a 4d or 5d table if you wish.
Its this use of user definable variables that exist purely within the software (ie they have no physical pin) that can be the output from one table and then input to another, that is particuarly flexible.
this does sound all good, but necessary ???
wouldnt the basic boost control like boost/revs and boost/throttle angle be enough ?
what have you mapped your boost in connection with ? throttle and rpm or have you gone in depth with yours ?
jim
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#215
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This isnt quite a definitive list as I couldnt screen grab any bigger resolution on this laptop, but this shows some of the available parameters.
(in fact it shows a little over a quarter of the available choices for each axis)
![](http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y251/chip-3door/misc/x-axis-sm4.jpg)
You can set any one to be X axis, then any one to be the Y axis.
You can then take the output from that table if you wish, and use it as an input to another table as the X axis, and the Y axis could then be the output from a further 3D table with two other physical or software parameters on it.
It really is more or less infinately flexible in this respect.
(in fact it shows a little over a quarter of the available choices for each axis)
![](http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y251/chip-3door/misc/x-axis-sm4.jpg)
You can set any one to be X axis, then any one to be the Y axis.
You can then take the output from that table if you wish, and use it as an input to another table as the X axis, and the Y axis could then be the output from a further 3D table with two other physical or software parameters on it.
It really is more or less infinately flexible in this respect.
Last edited by Chip; 22-04-2009 at 11:26 PM.
#216
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Ive not mapped my car yet mate, still got to put the new gearbox in it yet.
When I do so though, I will map it based on a combination of 4 values
Water temp (so I dont get full boost until the engine is up to temp)
A switch in the car (so I can choose a high or low resolution for the throttle)
TPS (this will essentially be combined with the switch to form the user request element of the table, so i'll have one table TPS versus the Switch with an output from that to give the torque request essentially)
RPM (as different boost is required at different rpm points in order to give a particular torque value)
#217
B1mbo
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Ive not mapped my car yet mate, still got to put the new gearbox in it yet.
When I do so though, I will map it based on a combination of 4 values
Water temp (so I dont get full boost until the engine is up to temp)
A switch in the car (so I can choose a high or low resolution for the throttle)
TPS (this will essentially be combined with the switch to form the user request element of the table, so i'll have one table TPS versus the Switch with an output from that to give the torque request essentially)
RPM (as different boost is required at different rpm points in order to give a particular torque value)
When I do so though, I will map it based on a combination of 4 values
Water temp (so I dont get full boost until the engine is up to temp)
A switch in the car (so I can choose a high or low resolution for the throttle)
TPS (this will essentially be combined with the switch to form the user request element of the table, so i'll have one table TPS versus the Switch with an output from that to give the torque request essentially)
RPM (as different boost is required at different rpm points in order to give a particular torque value)
ahh i see, thought you had mapped it !
they seem a good choice of things to choose
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just one complaint,
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your terminology when explaining things could be a little more user friendly
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im (only !) just about getting all of it
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#218
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TBH mate, im trying my best to explain it in laymans terms, but its not very easy to do so in a post on the internet without it going on for hundreds of lines and then you'll just not bother to read it all, so im trying to pitch it at a level you should just about get.
Terms like "user request" seem pretty obvious to me TBH, its what the user wants, ie a bit of acceleration or a lot to put it in REALLY simple terms, lol
Terms like "user request" seem pretty obvious to me TBH, its what the user wants, ie a bit of acceleration or a lot to put it in REALLY simple terms, lol
#220
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TBH, if people have no experience of mapping or some other form of calibration or programming of computer software, they have very little odds of understanding it off a few forum posts, they would be better off reading a book on the subject I would imagine.
Some things are a bit too big a subject for a forum thread IMHO
Some things are a bit too big a subject for a forum thread IMHO
#223
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Ok mate.
Fingers crossed the nova's hardware lets me make use of it, as ultimately you are always limited by that!
For example on Rob's astra, the boost control was perfect on his old manifold, but when he got a different spec one and a different turbo hotside, he now finds he gets boost creep at the top end, and there is nothing I can do about it as it does it even when running wastegate spring pressure, so is obviously limited by the wastegate outlet on the manifold's flow potential, no ecu can change that, so it might be a while before I have bugs like that ironed out on my car, as I obvously dont yet know what they will be as ive never had it running hard enough to find out yet.
Fingers crossed the nova's hardware lets me make use of it, as ultimately you are always limited by that!
For example on Rob's astra, the boost control was perfect on his old manifold, but when he got a different spec one and a different turbo hotside, he now finds he gets boost creep at the top end, and there is nothing I can do about it as it does it even when running wastegate spring pressure, so is obviously limited by the wastegate outlet on the manifold's flow potential, no ecu can change that, so it might be a while before I have bugs like that ironed out on my car, as I obvously dont yet know what they will be as ive never had it running hard enough to find out yet.
#224
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#227
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Chip, i mentioned this on another post but not sure if you saw it.
I haven't used the 3d boost control yet but i can see a flaw with it at the moment. Cruising in 5th, i can give a small amount of thottle, the boost comes in slowly but isn't limited, this is great for overtaking on the motorway when you don't want to blast past.
With a throttle vs rpm map, you are going to lose this. If I were to set 20% throttle to a bar of boost, i'm going to need to be heavier on the throttle - it will likely make the car feel flatter. Also, what about spool up? A big turbo, 2nd gear and you want boost asap, but not 'full' boost. So, you limit the boost using only 50% throttle - which is great, but 50% throttle is going to increase lag slightly. You could of course use full throttle, then as soon as it kicks come back off, but this ckind of defeates the object and doesn't help the 5th gear driveability issue.
The Apexi AVCR seems to be the better solution if it works in practice - gear based and rpm bases boost - keep your foot in and everything is done for you.
Rick.
I haven't used the 3d boost control yet but i can see a flaw with it at the moment. Cruising in 5th, i can give a small amount of thottle, the boost comes in slowly but isn't limited, this is great for overtaking on the motorway when you don't want to blast past.
With a throttle vs rpm map, you are going to lose this. If I were to set 20% throttle to a bar of boost, i'm going to need to be heavier on the throttle - it will likely make the car feel flatter. Also, what about spool up? A big turbo, 2nd gear and you want boost asap, but not 'full' boost. So, you limit the boost using only 50% throttle - which is great, but 50% throttle is going to increase lag slightly. You could of course use full throttle, then as soon as it kicks come back off, but this ckind of defeates the object and doesn't help the 5th gear driveability issue.
The Apexi AVCR seems to be the better solution if it works in practice - gear based and rpm bases boost - keep your foot in and everything is done for you.
Rick.
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Chip, i mentioned this on another post but not sure if you saw it.
I haven't used the 3d boost control yet but i can see a flaw with it at the moment. Cruising in 5th, i can give a small amount of thottle, the boost comes in slowly but isn't limited, this is great for overtaking on the motorway when you don't want to blast past.
With a throttle vs rpm map, you are going to lose this. If I were to set 20% throttle to a bar of boost, i'm going to need to be heavier on the throttle - it will likely make the car feel flatter. Also, what about spool up? A big turbo, 2nd gear and you want boost asap, but not 'full' boost. So, you limit the boost using only 50% throttle - which is great, but 50% throttle is going to increase lag slightly. You could of course use full throttle, then as soon as it kicks come back off, but this ckind of defeates the object and doesn't help the 5th gear driveability issue.
The Apexi AVCR seems to be the better solution if it works in practice - gear based and rpm bases boost - keep your foot in and everything is done for you.
Rick.
I haven't used the 3d boost control yet but i can see a flaw with it at the moment. Cruising in 5th, i can give a small amount of thottle, the boost comes in slowly but isn't limited, this is great for overtaking on the motorway when you don't want to blast past.
With a throttle vs rpm map, you are going to lose this. If I were to set 20% throttle to a bar of boost, i'm going to need to be heavier on the throttle - it will likely make the car feel flatter. Also, what about spool up? A big turbo, 2nd gear and you want boost asap, but not 'full' boost. So, you limit the boost using only 50% throttle - which is great, but 50% throttle is going to increase lag slightly. You could of course use full throttle, then as soon as it kicks come back off, but this ckind of defeates the object and doesn't help the 5th gear driveability issue.
The Apexi AVCR seems to be the better solution if it works in practice - gear based and rpm bases boost - keep your foot in and everything is done for you.
Rick.
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and your 2nd gear scenario, if you want boost asap then why aren't you using full throttle?
#229
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Boosr isn't limited by the throttle enough in 5th gear. because the engine is loaded, it's very easy to make boost on part throttle - this isn't going to be the same on all engine specs.
Full throttle will lead to max boost and just spin up the wheels.
Rick.
Full throttle will lead to max boost and just spin up the wheels.
Rick.
#230
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Chip, i mentioned this on another post but not sure if you saw it.
I haven't used the 3d boost control yet but i can see a flaw with it at the moment. Cruising in 5th, i can give a small amount of thottle, the boost comes in slowly but isn't limited, this is great for overtaking on the motorway when you don't want to blast past.
With a throttle vs rpm map, you are going to lose this. If I were to set 20% throttle to a bar of boost, i'm going to need to be heavier on the throttle - it will likely make the car feel flatter. Also, what about spool up? A big turbo, 2nd gear and you want boost asap, but not 'full' boost. So, you limit the boost using only 50% throttle - which is great, but 50% throttle is going to increase lag slightly. You could of course use full throttle, then as soon as it kicks come back off, but this ckind of defeates the object and doesn't help the 5th gear driveability issue.
The Apexi AVCR seems to be the better solution if it works in practice - gear based and rpm bases boost - keep your foot in and everything is done for you.
Rick.
I haven't used the 3d boost control yet but i can see a flaw with it at the moment. Cruising in 5th, i can give a small amount of thottle, the boost comes in slowly but isn't limited, this is great for overtaking on the motorway when you don't want to blast past.
With a throttle vs rpm map, you are going to lose this. If I were to set 20% throttle to a bar of boost, i'm going to need to be heavier on the throttle - it will likely make the car feel flatter. Also, what about spool up? A big turbo, 2nd gear and you want boost asap, but not 'full' boost. So, you limit the boost using only 50% throttle - which is great, but 50% throttle is going to increase lag slightly. You could of course use full throttle, then as soon as it kicks come back off, but this ckind of defeates the object and doesn't help the 5th gear driveability issue.
The Apexi AVCR seems to be the better solution if it works in practice - gear based and rpm bases boost - keep your foot in and everything is done for you.
Rick.
So in that scenario, you would simply use the 2nd half of the throttle travel only, so 50% throttle would be your low boost, and 100% would be your highest boost, and you can still choose any point in between it just involves smaller movements of the throttle.
But yes you are correct that if doing it the way you mention on a basic 3d map and you want quick spool but then only small boost, you simply push your foot down further to aid spool then back off to the boost that you want. Which works fine anyway IME
Im not aware of anything at all that the apexi can do which the autronic cant.
Last edited by Chip; 23-04-2009 at 11:00 AM.
#233
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#234
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So a progressive power delivery is very important.
If all you want to do is bang up and down an airfield in a straight line though, im sure you are correct that balls out is the way to go.
Last edited by Chip; 23-04-2009 at 12:46 PM.
#236
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#237
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I would imagine given the people involved in writing the Vipec software that it has similar functions but Ive not ever mapped one and only ever had a brief look at the software, will have a proper look sometime for you mate, as not got it on my work pc only my laptop.