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3door hubs.. are they worth fitting???

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Old 29-05-2008, 02:39 PM
  #41  
Dan
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Originally Posted by lamb chops
nope cant find it mike, post a link please
I've just looked too!
Old 29-05-2008, 02:42 PM
  #42  
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Well I found it INSTANTLY you lazy fuckers .

Do an advanced search, my name, general discussion and "ultimate" as the key word .
Old 29-05-2008, 02:43 PM
  #43  
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Originally Posted by Mike Rainbird
Well I found it INSTANTLY you lazy fuckers .

Do an advanced search, my name, general discussion and "ultimate" as the key word .
I did, and found this!

Originally Posted by Mike Rainbird
Not that I've given it any thought

Technical Specification:
ENGINE:

Type: Ford-Cosworth YBB
Capacity: 2280cc
Bore / Stroke: 93.00mm/82.00mm
Compression ratio: 7.4:1
Max. power: 465bhp @ 7050rpm @ 27 PSI.
Torque @ max. power: 355lb.ft
Max. torque: 400lb.ft @ 5000rpm @ 30 PSI.
Power @ max. torque: 360bhp
Specific output: 232.5 bhp per litre.
Power / weight ratio: 400bhp/tonne.
Cylinders: Four, in-line (4 x 4 pistons).
Cylinder head: Works spec large ported 4x4 head (Nick Waples) with "secret profile" cams.
Block: Cast iron 4 x 4 (200 Series), WRC tri-metallic head gasket, long-studded, with fully balanced bottom end (including longer steel rods), Farndon crank, custom spec lower compression height pistons and high pressure oil pump.
Valve gear: Four valves per cylinder, operated by belt-driven twin overhead camshafts and solid lifters operated by Cosworth DFV valve springs.
Fuel and ignition: Pectel T6, Pectel monitor, water injection, Ford Motorsport leads, coil-pack / wasted spark system, AGPS 071 plugs, Mountune roller barrel intake, four 650cc injectors and Bosch 5 bar MAP sensor. Specially programmed ISS (Intercooler Spray System) chip live mapped on engine dyno using Ford Motorsport air injectors for the boost control.
Cooling: Pro-Alloy header tank, 4x4 thermostat, housing and water pump, Pro-Alloy double thickness alloy radiator and swirl pot. Laminova oil cooler (water cooled). Big wing (5˝ litre) baffled sump and WRC crankcase breather kit with braided hosing.
Induction: K&N panel filter inside a modified air box with Bailey RS500 lid and turbo pipe, SCS spec T38 turbo, Spec-R damper bracket and genuine RS500 horse-shoe damper, -31 actuator, Pro-Alloy "wide-boy RS 500" air to air intercooler and Bailey piston type recirculating dump valve.
Installation: Front, longitudinal.
Exhaust: Magnex twin 2ź" system with 4" tail pipe.


TRANSMISSION:
Type:
Front-engine, rear-wheel-drive.
Gearbox: Tremec 6-speed
Diff: Ford Motorsport 9" with 3.64:1 CWP


WHEELS & TYRES:
Wheels:
Compomotive TH2 cast alloy - front 7˝" x 17", ET37mm, rear 8" x 17" ET40
Tyres:
Front:
215/40ZR17, Dunlop DZ02G cut slicks
Rear: 235/40ZR17, Dunlop DZ02 cut slicks


SUSPENSION:
Front:
Independent by LEDA adjustable 2˝" coilovers with 350lb springs. Macpherson struts, three-door Cosworth hubs and track control arms, set to 2° negative camber, 0" 20' toe in. Standard 28mm anti-roll bar with polyurethane bushes and Grp A three piece strut brace.
Rear: Independent, by semi-trailing arms, LEDA adjustable 2ź" coilovers with 171lb springs and Escort Cosworth 22mm anti-roll bar. Ream beam replaced with an Ahmed Bayjoo modified (Grp A) 6°
item, rose jointed and fully adjustable set to 1.5° negative camber and 0' 20" toe-in. Polyurethane rear axle bushes and Sparco rose jointed rear strut brace.

Rear bumpsteer:
Bump
60mm - 0.030" toe in
50mm - 0.023" toe in
40mm - 0.015" toe in
30mm - 0.009" toe in
20mm - 0.005" toe in
10mm - 0.003" toe in
0.0mm - 0.000" toe in
Droop
10mm - 0.001" toe out
20mm - 0.002" toe out
30mm - 0.003" toe out

INTERIOR:
Front: Recaro carbon SP2 race seats.
All carpet, sound deadening and rear seats stripped out.
Carbon door cards.
Stack ST8130P dash
Boost pressure gauge - APEXi 2.5 bar
Defi Exhaust Gas Temperature gauge
Defi water temp gauge
Electric sunroof conversion.
Manual over-ride on fan control.
3 stage switchable boost - 1 to 2.5 bar
Momo carbon fibre gear knob.
4 x 4 gator.
Water injection light.
Pectel Monitor mounted in air vents.
Flocked dash.


BRAKES:
Front:
AP Racing 355mm (14") grooved and and ventilated discs wth aluminium bell. AP Racing CP5555 6-pot callipers and stainless-steel stainless-steel braided hoses.
Rear: AP Racing 315mm (12.4") grooved and ventilated discs wth aluminium bell. AP Racing CP5200 4-pot callipers and stainless-steel braided hose.
System: Hydraulic, dual-circuit with vacuum servo assistance and Teves ABS.


STEERING:
Type:
Power-assisted rack-&-pinion.
Lock-to-lock: 2.4 turns


BODY / CHASSIS:
Type:
Pressed-steel monocoque, based on conventional Sierra, in four-door saloon style. Bonnet, boot, wings and bumpers replaced with light-weight GRP items.
Chassis construction: In steel, as part of monocoque
Dimensions:
Length:
4490mm Width: 1700mm [b/]Height:[/b] 1377mm Wheelbase: 2609mm Front track: 1450mm Rear track: 1466mm Weight: 1162Kg*
*Weight without driver and with half tank of fuel
Old 29-05-2008, 03:27 PM
  #44  
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great work there Dan
Old 29-05-2008, 03:33 PM
  #45  
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Obviously the same could be applied to a 3dr, but as it has a structurally wonky shell to start off with, you're better off using the stiffer Sapphire shell as a base .
Old 29-05-2008, 03:48 PM
  #46  
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Mike have you included a cage in that spec at all? Or have I missed it in the above?
Old 29-05-2008, 03:56 PM
  #47  
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Probably would be a good idea, but it adds weight .

Perhaps a carbon roof and a cage would be better .
Old 29-05-2008, 04:33 PM
  #48  
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if you are using the original abs set up then there is no vacuum servo assistance

i wonder who's been copying and pasting..................

as for the 2wd/4wd front arb gubbins, with a 2wd arb on my 4wd car the handling going round corners was great, it stuck to the road like roadkill

but driving without any great gusto would see it pitching and turning and following the camber of the road with an enthusiasm that i couldn't match day to day as it was so on edge all the time it was very tiring very quick

with the same arb on a 2wd car it was much easier to find that sweet spot to go round a corner without provoking anything like understeer

with the escos rear arb though, the back end was too stiff and even the slightest amount of extra power would see the back end start to loosen up as if you'd hit a patch of black ice
Old 02-06-2008, 10:26 AM
  #49  
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Might get these 3rds hubs finally (found some for 120Ł with flanges, does it sounds right ?). Would these TCAs be ok ?

http://cgi.ebay.fr/Cosworth-2Wd-Adj-...QQcmdZViewItem

It says 2WD but not if 3rd or saph...
Old 02-06-2008, 11:51 AM
  #50  
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how can you tell a 3dr hub from a 2wd saff
got a pair of hubs for years in my shed but dont know
if 3dr or 2wd saff
Old 02-06-2008, 12:21 PM
  #51  
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saphs have a thread and a castleated nut where as 3drs have a pinch bolt, unless it says 3dr specifically then its probably just 2wd ones, i got mine from comp brake, alot of negative stuff on here about them but i have no troubles with them at all, posted and recieved within three days??
Old 02-06-2008, 12:25 PM
  #52  
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Mike,

On a saph wearing standard wheels/rubber do you know roughly the height of the rear roll centre?
Old 02-06-2008, 01:26 PM
  #53  
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so what are 3dr hubs fetching these days
Old 02-06-2008, 02:14 PM
  #54  
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Originally Posted by Garage19
Mike,

On a saph wearing standard wheels/rubber do you know roughly the height of the rear roll centre?
Obviously this information has been provided to me by Ahmed (in fact nearly all my handling knowledge has been gleaned over the years from his experience with the rally cars, plus my own experimentation after following his mantra - wax on, wax off ), and he is reluctant to have it made public knowledge.

Just out of curiousity, why do you ask? You do realise that it is the front to rear disparity that causes the main handling issues? Combine this with the horrendous bump steer of the original beam and you have a car that understeers for England .
Old 02-06-2008, 02:45 PM
  #55  
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Disparity between roll centre heights is pretty common.

You said the roll centre for the front is six inches below ground which i agree is not great but the back might have a roll centre of say four inches above which would probably be fine.

I kinda fancy drawing up a double wishbone conversion for saphs as a bit of a design excercise. Would be quite simple if i had the reference geometry of where the beam and diff mount points were.
Old 02-06-2008, 03:03 PM
  #56  
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I think you should concentrate on doing something to improve the front .
Old 02-06-2008, 04:00 PM
  #57  
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Why would i do that???

Have you already got something in the pipeline for the rear??

The front end would be a lot trickier than the rear to sort. Not much room for anything but a mac strut. Front uprights are alot harder to fabricate than the rear ones as they don't have a bolt on bearing carrier.
Old 02-06-2008, 04:08 PM
  #58  
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Originally Posted by Garage19
Why would i do that???

Have you already got something in the pipeline for the rear??

The front end would be a lot trickier than the rear to sort. Not much room for anything but a mac strut. Front uprights are alot harder to fabricate than the rear ones as they don't have a bolt on bearing carrier.
No I haven't, as every man and his dog does something for the rear (6° rear beams to full WRC rear ends like you are suggesting, so why bother being just another company to chose one of these from ? NO-ONE does anything for the front (bar the full Grp A / WRC magnesium set-up), hence why I suggested it .
Old 02-06-2008, 04:15 PM
  #59  
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Ok, so if you had to name the aspects of the front end you would like improved, what would they be?
Old 02-06-2008, 04:22 PM
  #60  
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Mike,

I didn't think you had adjustable toe on the rear of your old Sapphire?
Old 03-06-2008, 07:36 AM
  #61  
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Originally Posted by Garage19
Ok, so if you had to name the aspects of the front end you would like improved, what would they be?
Improve the roll center to bring the axis more level and resolve the bump steer issues at the same time .

James,
I had my inner arms slotted and then Chris Woods fixed them in position after setting the geometry.
Old 03-06-2008, 08:55 AM
  #62  
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Originally Posted by Mike Rainbird
Improve the roll center to bring the axis more level and resolve the bump steer issues at the same time .
That would require designing a new upright and changing the steering arm location on the upright or moving the rack.

Problem with that is fabricatiing an up right for a mac strut is a pain and casting one requires big investment and high end cost or volume.
Old 03-06-2008, 09:15 AM
  #63  
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Originally Posted by Garage19
That would require designing a new upright and changing the steering arm location on the upright or moving the rack.

Problem with that is fabricatiing an up right for a mac strut is a pain and casting one requires big investment and high end cost or volume.
I realise that, hence why everyone just concentrates on the back end, which is a bit pointless, as only making the rear acceptible is only curing half the problem - and only the 3dr / RS500 has a decent front end . You should be copying the Grp A / WRC front end, but making them suitable for standard dampers . Obviously this would require machining from billet (I think someone on this site has done the rears, so is defo an option?).
Old 03-06-2008, 09:21 AM
  #64  
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Just found them:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ESCORT-WRC-GRP...2em118Q2el1247

I thought he had done them for the rear, but these are front ones. Absolute work of art!
Old 03-06-2008, 09:38 AM
  #65  
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Originally Posted by Garage19
That would require designing a new upright and changing the steering arm location on the upright or moving the rack.
i've seen some ally front hubs designed for kit cars i think that have a bolt on arm for the steering rack so that they are suitable for steering racks mounted either in front or behind. maybe they could be adapted, but don't know how strong they are?

those hubs are beautiful mike
Old 03-06-2008, 10:11 AM
  #66  
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Nick,

They are cortina geometry uprights. Problem is they are not suitable for a mac strut.
Old 03-06-2008, 10:25 AM
  #67  
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Originally Posted by Garage19
Nick,

They are cortina geometry uprights. Problem is they are not suitable for a mac strut.
course they are doug if i'd thought about it for a second, i would have realised that
Old 03-06-2008, 10:25 AM
  #68  
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Originally Posted by Garage19
Nick,

They are cortina geometry uprights. Problem is they are not suitable for a mac strut.
But surely the design could be adapted to use the macpherson strut, but with the Grp A pick-up points etc, so that the TCA is mounted at an inclined angle further down the hub like on a 3dr?

An ideal set up:



















Old 03-06-2008, 10:34 AM
  #69  
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Originally Posted by Mike Rainbird
Not that I've given it any thought

Technical Specification:
ENGINE:

Type: Ford-Cosworth YBB
Capacity: 2280cc
Bore / Stroke: 93.00mm/82.00mm
Compression ratio: 7.4:1
Max. power: 465bhp @ 7050rpm @ 27 PSI.
Torque @ max. power: 355lb.ft
Max. torque: 400lb.ft @ 5000rpm @ 30 PSI.
Power @ max. torque: 360bhp
Specific output: 232.5 bhp per litre.
Power / weight ratio: 400bhp/tonne.
Cylinders: Four, in-line (4 x 4 pistons).
Cylinder head: Works spec large ported 4x4 head (Nick Waples) with "secret profile" cams.
Block: Cast iron 4 x 4 (200 Series), WRC tri-metallic head gasket, long-studded, with fully balanced bottom end (including longer steel rods), Farndon crank, custom spec lower compression height pistons and high pressure oil pump.
Valve gear: Four valves per cylinder, operated by belt-driven twin overhead camshafts and solid lifters operated by Cosworth DFV valve springs.
Fuel and ignition: Pectel T6, Pectel monitor, water injection, Ford Motorsport leads, coil-pack / wasted spark system, AGPS 071 plugs, Mountune roller barrel intake, four 650cc injectors and Bosch 5 bar MAP sensor. Specially programmed ISS (Intercooler Spray System) chip live mapped on engine dyno using Ford Motorsport air injectors for the boost control.
Cooling: Pro-Alloy header tank, 4x4 thermostat, housing and water pump, Pro-Alloy double thickness alloy radiator and swirl pot. Laminova oil cooler (water cooled). Big wing (5˝ litre) baffled sump and WRC crankcase breather kit with braided hosing.
Induction: K&N panel filter inside a modified air box with Bailey RS500 lid and turbo pipe, SCS spec T38 turbo, Spec-R damper bracket and genuine RS500 horse-shoe damper, -31 actuator, Pro-Alloy "wide-boy RS 500" air to air intercooler and Bailey piston type recirculating dump valve.
Installation: Front, longitudinal.
Exhaust: Magnex twin 2ź" system with 4" tail pipe.


TRANSMISSION:
Type:
Front-engine, rear-wheel-drive.
Gearbox: Tremec 6-speed
Diff: Ford Motorsport 9" with 3.64:1 CWP


WHEELS & TYRES:
Wheels:
Compomotive TH2 cast alloy - front 7˝" x 17", ET37mm, rear 8" x 17" ET40
Tyres:
Front:
215/40ZR17, Dunlop DZ02G cut slicks
Rear: 235/40ZR17, Dunlop DZ02 cut slicks


SUSPENSION:
Front:
Independent by LEDA adjustable 2˝" coilovers with 350lb springs. Macpherson struts, three-door Cosworth hubs and track control arms, set to 2° negative camber, 0" 20' toe in. Standard 28mm anti-roll bar with polyurethane bushes and Grp A three piece strut brace.
Rear: Independent, by semi-trailing arms, LEDA adjustable 2ź" coilovers with 171lb springs and Escort Cosworth 22mm anti-roll bar. Ream beam replaced with an Ahmed Bayjoo modified (Grp A) 6°
item, rose jointed and fully adjustable set to 1.5° negative camber and 0' 20" toe-in. Polyurethane rear axle bushes and Sparco rose jointed rear strut brace.

Rear bumpsteer:
Bump
60mm - 0.030" toe in
50mm - 0.023" toe in
40mm - 0.015" toe in
30mm - 0.009" toe in
20mm - 0.005" toe in
10mm - 0.003" toe in
0.0mm - 0.000" toe in
Droop
10mm - 0.001" toe out
20mm - 0.002" toe out
30mm - 0.003" toe out

INTERIOR:
Front: Recaro carbon SP2 race seats.
All carpet, sound deadening and rear seats stripped out.
Carbon door cards.
Stack ST8130P dash
Boost pressure gauge - APEXi 2.5 bar
Defi Exhaust Gas Temperature gauge
Defi water temp gauge
Electric sunroof conversion.
Manual over-ride on fan control.
3 stage switchable boost - 1 to 2.5 bar
Momo carbon fibre gear knob.
4 x 4 gator.
Water injection light.
Pectel Monitor mounted in air vents.
Flocked dash.


BRAKES:
Front:
AP Racing 355mm (14") grooved and and ventilated discs wth aluminium bell. AP Racing CP5555 6-pot callipers and stainless-steel stainless-steel braided hoses.
Rear: AP Racing 315mm (12.4") grooved and ventilated discs wth aluminium bell. AP Racing CP5200 4-pot callipers and stainless-steel braided hose.
System: Hydraulic, dual-circuit with vacuum servo assistance and Teves ABS.


STEERING:
Type:
Power-assisted rack-&-pinion.
Lock-to-lock: 2.4 turns


BODY / CHASSIS:
Type:
Pressed-steel monocoque, based on conventional Sierra, in four-door saloon style. Bonnet, boot, wings and bumpers replaced with light-weight GRP items.
Chassis construction: In steel, as part of monocoque
Dimensions:
Length:
4490mm Width: 1700mm [b/]Height:[/b] 1377mm Wheelbase: 2609mm Front track: 1450mm Rear track: 1466mm Weight: 1162Kg*
*Weight without driver and with half tank of fuel


How many saff owners are now going.................. click, save as
Old 03-06-2008, 10:46 AM
  #70  
foreigneRS
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Originally Posted by Mike Rainbird
But surely the design could be adapted to use the macpherson strut, but with the Grp A pick-up points etc, so that the TCA is mounted at an inclined angle further down the hub like on a 3dr?

An ideal set up:
a macpherson strut will never be ideal you can't make a silk purse from a sow's ear, but that does look good
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