El Dude

Hiya Folks...

newbie here ... just thought i'd share my experiences with Nitrous and more specifically...Wizards Of Nos!

as i wander round different forums it's staggering how much mis-information is knocking around about this subject people need to take a fresh look at the systems available these days as the progressive delivery achievable really is fantastic!!..

here is the thread of mine copied over from Pumapeople....Trevor Langfield himself (NozWizard) has also come onboard himself to answer a few questions and set the record straight on a few details...

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Wow! Where do I begin!….

Anyway, just got my car back from WON HQ yesterday They really have done a great job with my car. I was very fussy with them about the neatness of the job and they really do offer an excellent fitting service. I didn't want the car to be 'Bling Bling' afterwards, and so 'subtle' was the theme (if that's possible with Nitrous lol)

Before we get started on the details, I'd just like to say that this thread isn't intended primarily as a 'Big Up' for WON systems, what I would really like to do is educate people that are scared and ignorant about Nitrous and hopefully show you that this stuff is not to be labelled 'the killer of all engines' and fact the research and development that has been put into RELIABLE Solenoids/pulsoids and progressive controllers, is such that the delivery of Nitrous can be VERY accurately monitored and delivered.

I had no real idea what to expect when picking the car up from WON as i had never been in a car with it fitted... My impression of Nitrous was that when it was activated you would pinned back in your chair and propelled into oblivion like Clarkson driving the Ariel Atom or something .. I had all these things going round in my head about how I was going to negotiate between driving and activating and de-activating the system and whether it was going to be a clumsy and dangerous experience.... I really had no idea just how smoothly and progressively this system could actually delivered.... and with regards to arming the system, this was not at all the nerve racking experience i thought.... the system can be left on ready and easily activated with a full throttle 'kick down' as and when you want....

Over to the equipment...

Max Extreme progressive controller ( more technical info here... http://www.noswizard.com/images/pdf/...reme_text.html )

I won't attempt to cover this completely as it has features cababilities beyond my comprehension at the moment ....I think to sum up briefly, the keys features are..... You can setup incremental power delivery for every gear, and time the delivery accuratly to within every tenth of a second ... within each gear you have 5 power level stages...after you have set your required power curve you then choose the time span of the delivery for that gear... .... As you can imagine this is a little complicated at first but extremely accurate in fine tuning the system to your cars exact capabilities.
The Max will also monitor (with appropriate transducer kit fitted) your pressure from the bottle, your fuel pressure and your battery voltage.. safe parameters are then set in the controller and if your system doesn't meet the parameters, IT WILL NOT ACTIVATE!...simple as that!..... The Max also has a built in throttle position sensor and rpm monitoring, so again, you can set up the Nitrous to only deliver within the rev range that YOU specify (not a good idea to hit the rev limiter when still delivering Nitrous)... And when linked to the throttle pot sensor wiring, again, the system will only activate when at (or near) FULL throttle...

This is one of the features that really has to be experienced to be believed! When driving back from WON, I left the system on constantly, there was no flicking on and off like I thought there would be, it's all VERY controllable, you can actually drive the car quite enthusiastically without the nitrous kicking in at all, then when you press the pedal a little further ....then you feel the WON experience

The Max will also control your bottle heater too... you specify the parameters you want (950psi) and the bottle heater will kick in and out to bring the bottle up to pressure, as it will drop when delivering the Nitrous. In the cooler months of the year the bottle will be too cold for use ( mine was around 550psi this morning at 5 DegC) and so a bottle heater installed will enable better use all year round.... in fact, I would go as far as saying don't waste your time NOT fitting one, as it will be a very frustrating process trying to get up to the right psi all the time and you just won't get the same results!..

More details of the Max can be found at the Wizards Web Site

WON Pulsoids..

Wons Pulsoids are a totally unique quality and design.. They are gaurenteed for life and gaurenteed NOT to fail... In Fact, as Trev has pointed out, EVERY PIECE of WON equipment is garaunteed not to fail!... Please note, if you buy some of the kit second hand off EBAY (as i did) the pulsoids MUST be checked and serviced before fitting so that warrenty on them (on your vehicle) is restored..

Bigger is Better (for a change... )...Definitely worth while getting the big bottle! (11LB)...not just because it won't need filling every two minutes but also the pressure is far more consistent and will deliver more consistent performance for longer!

my bottle is mounted on an MDF board, then covered with a new carpet and a cutout made so only the support area sticks out...WON did a very neat fit on this..

Nylon line + Nylon Versus braided

It's quite common to see a mixture of blue and red nylon line with WON kits. I had mine installed with Black line as I felt it looked more hidden. Also as you will see in the pictures, I asked for the Pulsoids to be mounted underneath the battery box area which does look VERY tidy and hidden away. The crossfire injector is then mounted neatly underneath the large pipe in between the airbox and inlet manifold... Don't get Trev started on Braided line... a lot of 'other' kits do use braided line which can be VERY problematic for Nitrous use.... WON's unique spec small bore NYLON line delivers optimum performance and does not need purging!.. (much more on this subject on the WON forum..)

Jet size

Mine is currently installed with 50hp jets... At the moment this seems more than adequate to add a huge amount of fun to the puma, and with the different delivery options on the Max, this can be very easily tweaked to be very subtle or quite aggressive, so I don't think I'll be moving up jet sizes any time soon..

My assessment of the power delivery so far is that it feels very much more like the FRS now instead of the FRP and actually when on the lower delivery settings, the power increase can be extremely smooth and subtle... As a track day setting, I could really see a 25shot being great fun all the way the track, even on cornering.(with the controller)

My Helix clutch has certainly taken a bit more hammering this morning.. I wouldn't like to say how long the standard one would be lasting...

That's enough for now I think.... NozWizard will pick up on this thread and answer any technical questions that people have…. (sorry Trev if this write up is a little basic 'laymans' terms)...





Here's the max.. it's in a slightly awkward place, the ideal place i guess would be where the Radio is, but thats not an option for me.... when i get more familiar with the controls i guess i won't need to mess with them as much...







Here is the 11lb bottle with heater wrap fitted and transducer to report back to the max



No need to cut into your fuel line!... the valve on the fuel rail can be tapped into...



Bit of a none event this piccy...as the pulsoids have been neatly hidden away... you can just make out the crossfire injector on the left of the intake and a bit of the fuel pulsoid and transducer...



some technical info here.... http://www.noswizard.com/technical.php?osC...59eea9d1d25011f

pee vee

cool car. always fancied a racing puma.

welcome to the site!

alan12112

Looks good mate - who are you insured with?

JonnyBravo

Welcome to PF, I'm a huge fan of the racing Puma, certainly a stunning looking car.

Can't knock Trevs work, Chip me and many others can't get enough of the WON kits.

Looks like a pukka setup he has installed for you too

El Dude

Cheers...

FRP is quite a nice drive without the Nitrous... but now it has a bit more muscle on the straights too...

just poking around this site abit.... it's HUGE!...

Chris

RickyLee53

My mate's got the same kit on his racing puma, randomly he's also painted the writing on the tyres white as well.

Must be something the hairdressers do

El Dude

Cheers.... nice to get a welcome on a new site...

I'll try and get Trev over here too... he has some very interesting posts... lol

Yeah, well pleased with it... the Max controller really is a neat bit of kit and can be tailored to suit very High end systems or more moderatly powered car like the Puma... i went for this mainly because of all the extra safty features...

Regards

Chris

El Dude

really, that is quite a coincidence...

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Trev's a legend with nitrous, compelte mine of information on it, there genuinely isnt anyone better about nitrous on the planet IMHO

He has his own forum where people can chat to him anyway though:
http://www.nitrous-advice.org

Mike C

iTrader: (1)

This is just what I wanted to see. Needed some good advice on Nitrous

Rod-Tarry

Im afraid Nitrous is generally seen as cheating on this Forum & I suppose im to blame for that. Have used Trevs system for many years & am currently running 200bhp direct port but in my case 'pushed' with 1500psi of Nitrogen the only street legal car to run this system it supplies 250+ extra horses.
I expect Ant & not Trev sorted you out as Trev is far too rich to get involved .

Mike C

iTrader: (1)

With the reg plate "N20 CYA", I'd look a bit of a tit without nitrous, lol

JonnyBravo

Shit me Rod, I forgot you were the first person using nitrous on here lol

I have nothing against anyone using nitrous to get the results, as much as you seem to go on at times your car isn't exactly shy without the nitrous which I think people forget.

I honestly believe ( and don't jump down my throat ) that you are in a class of your own, there are plenty of Ford tuners out there capable of building an engine to rival yours but there isn't anyone that has their heart in it like you do which is why you get little respect on here. I suspect its a different story with your friends from the Vmax ( is it called? ) community, If you want to compete in that class you need everything that is available which includes nitrous

El Dude

Ah... i see you have much 'WON' experience already....

that sounds like a beast of a system...

Your right, Ant fitted my kit... but Trevor has been invaluable in offering excellent advice etc...

El Dude

i'm confused now...

your using Nitrous or not..?

or just bought the plate in advance of a future project...


i thought the whole idea was to keep it 'under wraps' not advertise it on your reg plate.... lol

foreigneRS

presumably that's an aluminium bottle? the heater would be a lot more effective if the rest of the bottle was insulated rather than just throwing the heat into the boot

apart from that minor technicality that i would improve upon myself if it were mine, it looks good

bigchez

Nos fascintaes me! Been wondering for a while how much could you safely run on a standard yb engine? Or would it really need to be low comped? Have been thinking of getting a 50 shot......is it likely to end in tears?

glancy2081

how much would a system like this cost

El Dude

.... the heater is designed that way so it warms the gas pocket at the top of the bottle so the dense liquid undearneath is propelled at the correct pressure.... maybe further insulation will be available in the furture..?

seems to work ok tho...

i think Trev has thought about this already

this is somthing you'd need to ask Trev about.... But as a guess i'd say it was unlikely to end in tears if fitted and used correctly...

hard to say exactly... i bought some of mine second hand off ebay... then bought the controller of Wizards and paid them to fit it ....bare in mind if you buy second hands pulsoids you must get them checked and serviced by WON to retain the warrenty and ensure you will have a trouble free installation... but as a rough idea...Ł1500ish

m_nettleship

bottle heater works fine, as on my st220

El Dude

just had a little nosy on your nos thread...

did you fit the heater to cure your rich running..??

100jets seems 'enthusiastic' for a stock engine...is it running ok..?

i'm pressuming your running a progressive setup too..?

Chris

foreigneRS

not wrong at all. i've worked for 12 years as an a/c engineer where the refrigerant is in the bottle in both liquid and gas form. to get the liquid out of the bottle better, it's far better to heat the liquid and boil it off to create the gas as the massive expansion creates more pressure than just heating the gas. it obviously requires far more energy though.

you can't argue with the simple fact that the aluminium bottle will conduct a great deal of heat from the bottle warmer area to both ends where it will be dissipated to the air surrounding it (just like a radiator). insulating the whole bottle will greatly improve the efficiency of the whole system so that it uses less electrical power (which does have to come back from the engine at some point and is not free), the pressure rises quicker, and can keep up with demand better as the liquid is used. as long as you have a thermostat or pressure switch on there, then it will be better insulated - FACT

i know that they work 'fine' as they are, but it can be improved upon

of course if you really want to keep a constant pressure in the bottle to push the liquid out, you can always pressurise it with a regulated nitrogen supply

Mike C

iTrader: (1)

I WILL be using nitrous, yes, but will need some advice on the best way to run nitrous on this engine etc

Chip

iTrader: (3)

The bottles are aluminium

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Ive put 125bhp jets through my standard snotty old YB, only "issue" ive ever had is blackening some plugs when it went rich at the end of a bottle when I was hammer down at 170mph or so.

You dont need low comp, even for shots bigger than that.

El Dude

he he... trev has corrected me already.... this topic came up recently on his forum.... it seems extra insulation would be beneficial after all.. especially in the colder months i guess... i may get something made up in Alcantara to match the car....could be quite nice... lol

Chris

foreigneRS

really? so the basic laws of physics do still apply on planet earth then?

El Dude

it appears so...thank you...

Chip

iTrader: (3)

bigchez

Cool!

I have a WRC gasket so that should hold. It is best to use it midrange with a big boost spike or higher up? Could it cause the turbo to spin too fast if used up top, as boost has been capped now to stop this happening......

badnews

forgive me for talking out of turn but the bottle would be better mounted the other way round if your going on track at all, or even front to rear or am i missing something

m_nettleship

oh yeah just noticed that, ur bottle is facing the wrong way. Ill post u some b4 and after graphs.

but reduced feul jet, and 100 bhp jets really gives u about 65 lol.

m_nettleship

ignore the feul line on graph 2.

stock st220 at this point. with 100bhp jets, fully heated to 950psi.

progressive yes.

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Mount longitudiinally would be better, but other than that the bottle is fine where it is, its pointed the correct way in terms of the outlet pointing down and the tap end being higher.

Noswizard

Hi everyone,

Its that long since I was here last, that I'd forgotten ever being here and tried to register again - approaching old age is less than appealing.

First of all I'd like to thank Chris for his efforts to tell the world how happy he is with his system, even though in this case he was appealing mainly to the converted.

I'd also like to thank all of you who posted positive responses, especially Chip who is being far too kind and it's very gratifying to see so many happy customers.


Bigchez,

The best time to use nitrous on a turbo is to eliminate turbo lag and achieve a quicker spool up time, however nitrous is beneficial at any time the waste gate is not fully open.
Adding nitrous can cause the turbo to "briefly" over boost, because the boost rise rate is quicker than the wastegate can activate but it is only a "briefly" and is normally not a problem.


Badnews,

Whilst it's theoretically better to have the bottle mounted in line with the car (front to back rather than across), in practice it makes very little difference. There are right ways and wrong ways to mount the bottle but this isn't one of them.


Madrod,

How are things going, will you be making another attempt in the near future?
What's this about members here considering nitrous as cheating, in what way can it be considered cheating?
If it's because the bottle has to be refilled, then on that basis petrol itself should be considered cheating, because ANY statement levelled at nitrous also applies to that.
Unless someone manages to make an engine run on air alone, all internal combustion engines are going to rely on a fuel source that needs replenishing, so why is it a problem to have the oxygen source stored/supplied in the same manner.

I feel sorry for people who have to resort to that argument, as an excuse for being UNABLE to match the performance potential of nitrous and have to settle for LOWER performance, because they are missing out on so much.
One of the main reasons for such narrow minded attitudes is ignorance of how nitrous works and what it can do, which is a sad indictment of peoples reluctance to learn, because ALL the knowledge required is available on our forum.

I look forward to reading and responding to any post from anyone, who feels they can "justify" such a narrow minded, ill informed opinion.

foreigneRS

is the outlet piped internally to the bottom of the bottle so that it picks up liquid?

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Yes the pipe goes to the bottom, and to the same edge of the bottle as the outlet on the tap faces.
So you need the outlet pipe facing down (like here)

Noswizard

Hi m nettleship,

Good to see you're getting decent results from my system but it sounds like you're results are down by more than I'd expect.

Every vehicle uses nitrous to varying degrees of efficiency, as a consequence of the following factors, it is therefore impossible to predict what power output a given amount of nitrous will produce and as a consequence I emphasis the fact that our jet ratings are only theoretical;

1) All engine design factors (induction design, port shape, valve sizes, combustion chamber shape/type, etc.)

2) The compression ratio

3) The capability of the exhaust system to cope with the extra flow - there's no point putting more in than you can get out.

4) The strength of the spark

5) Transmission losses

An extreme example of this situation is a turbo engine, because unlike NA engines where we usually see a lower output figure than theoretical input figure, on turbos we usually see a higher output figure, which can be as much as double.

Can you explain your graph contents for me and do you have any with and without results on the same graph?

What jet numbers are you using?

If you'd like to post some pics of your engine bay and/or you're ever in our area, I'd be happy to check over your car, to see why you are not seeing a bigger percentage of the input power as output power.

JonnyBravo

Welcome to PF Trev (James @ Gastech)

GavStyli

neat install there
i too recently fitted a WON kit with 25 shot jet and really happy with the performance gain.
really interested in the Max Extreme progressive controller too if/when i go for a 50 shot now. Ill drop you a pm soon as id like to know how you getting on with it
my terminals at pod have increased from 98-99mph to 106-108mph, would be interesting to see how much extra power ill make on dyno-dynamics rollers, ive had 200bhp before the nos.
have to be carefull not to redline it on rollers tho