Torque of the Devil RR Day - 6th Oct
#121
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Originally Posted by Christian and Beccy
Originally Posted by AlexF
you measure torque and rpm
you calculate bhp
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you calculate bhp
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#122
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Originally Posted by Christian and Beccy
Originally Posted by Charlie Chalk
Originally Posted by AlexF
Originally Posted by Daviet
funny that most of the cars that lost power probably had 3 letters on the back of there cars
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#123
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Originally Posted by Charlie Chalk
Originally Posted by AlexF
Originally Posted by Daviet
funny that most of the cars that lost power probably had 3 letters on the back of there cars
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or rst???
LOL
#125
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Originally Posted by dingy
![](http://www.derbyshire-rsoc.co.uk/images/totd/Torque-of-the-Devil-RR-Graph-KIA.jpg)
Comparing Rolling roads is crazy...
Examples...
320 @ wheels at AVA - t34 slow LOL 405 on dyno and 380 @ fly in car
435 @ wheels at nobles and 561 @ fly T4 @ 31psi.....(boost from there dataloggin)
Now at TOTD it made 380@wheels and 450 @ fly but failed to hold boost and only ran 27psi...
Took radders out on road and checked boost - same as when it ran at nobles..
My runs @ totd had far to many variables and to many changes from 400 to 430 to 410 to 440 to 450.....Car remains the same just how the operator decided to run the car up... so am taking the figure with a pinch of salt cause the boost is down etc...also my graph shows it was run in 3rd and it was run up in 4th - gary @ apt mentioned this could be a possible 10-15-20bhp difference in the overall power...
Going on that and the lack of the 4 to 5 psi could explain the loss in power.
4x4 cars seem to have better readings than 2wd's also having looked at lloyds figure - made 50bhp more than mine at a part run with a very simular engine and i think less boost...
Also why did billiecabs make less power over night....and claimed to be hiting the boost limit....nothing had changed on the car...
Euan, just for the record i don't think your car would make 500bhp at the fly here going on what mine made at the wheels at AVA....very interesting though and am coming up to AVA early next year to have a power run
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#126
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Originally Posted by AlexF
Originally Posted by Charlie Chalk
Originally Posted by AlexF
Originally Posted by Daviet
funny that most of the cars that lost power probably had 3 letters on the back of there cars
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or rst???
LOL
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#127
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Originally Posted by dingy
[img]
Also why did billiecabs make less power over night....and claimed to be hiting the boost limit....nothing had changed on the car...
Also why did billiecabs make less power over night....and claimed to be hiting the boost limit....nothing had changed on the car...
#128
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Originally Posted by AndyRST
Originally Posted by dingy
[img]
Also why did billiecabs make less power over night....and claimed to be hiting the boost limit....nothing had changed on the car...
Also why did billiecabs make less power over night....and claimed to be hiting the boost limit....nothing had changed on the car...
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#129
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Originally Posted by AndyRST
Originally Posted by dingy
[img]
Also why did billiecabs make less power over night....and claimed to be hiting the boost limit....nothing had changed on the car...
Also why did billiecabs make less power over night....and claimed to be hiting the boost limit....nothing had changed on the car...
Ambient temp gets corrected tho ?
#131
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Originally Posted by AndyRST
Originally Posted by dingy
[img]
Also why did billiecabs make less power over night....and claimed to be hiting the boost limit....nothing had changed on the car...
Also why did billiecabs make less power over night....and claimed to be hiting the boost limit....nothing had changed on the car...
Its now a reliable car with good power......
Thanks Chris for your magic, out 'little' chat and suprising me with what you said after ny RR run yesterday
![Wink](https://passionford.com/forum/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif)
Also thanks to Radders for organising the whole event, good to see Lee again and out 'heated' chat with Radders
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#132
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Originally Posted by Christian and Beccy
Dingy's run shows an Intake temp of 36° against an Ambient temp of 22°, that will have corrected the power upwards slightly if anything. ![Wink](https://passionford.com/forum/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif)
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Originally Posted by miller3
Originally Posted by AndyRST
Originally Posted by dingy
[img]
Also why did billiecabs make less power over night....and claimed to be hiting the boost limit....nothing had changed on the car...
Also why did billiecabs make less power over night....and claimed to be hiting the boost limit....nothing had changed on the car...
Ambient temp gets corrected tho ?
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LOL - Not going to get involved in any of the politics here, sure this post will run for a while though!
Christian - If you can do another one after xmas we'd love to come along to that, was an excellent day last time, I'll have two new toys to blow up too!
Karl - Hello mate, and of course Tim and Ollie have an invite
- You keep evolving the cars, we'll keep seeing how that evolution makes them quicker!
Radders and Chris at TOTD - Sorry I couldn't make it myself but sounds like everyone still had a great day. Thanks again for putting the event on!
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Christian - If you can do another one after xmas we'd love to come along to that, was an excellent day last time, I'll have two new toys to blow up too!
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Karl - Hello mate, and of course Tim and Ollie have an invite
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Radders and Chris at TOTD - Sorry I couldn't make it myself but sounds like everyone still had a great day. Thanks again for putting the event on!
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#138
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Originally Posted by Christian and Beccy
OK, I will suggest some dates soon. Perhaps Feb/March time? ![Wink](https://passionford.com/forum/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif)
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I will come....the fucking gas and 40psi
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#139
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Can i just say...
I am very pleased with how the car performs and regardless of the figures today. I don't believe its less than 500bhp to be honest but everyones car appeared to be down on power.
Thanks for to TOTD staff and Radders....also good to speak to nick @ pf
and everyone else i spoke to......especially the legend that is john nutter...
I am very pleased with how the car performs and regardless of the figures today. I don't believe its less than 500bhp to be honest but everyones car appeared to be down on power.
Thanks for to TOTD staff and Radders....also good to speak to nick @ pf
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#140
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Originally Posted by AndyRST
Originally Posted by dingy
Originally Posted by Chris@torque of the devil
some people where obviously upset at the figures they recieved on our dyno but I believe them to be as accurate as possible without removing the engine from the car and bolting it on an engine dyno, and we have a very recent certificate of calibration on the wall for all to see.
chris.
chris.
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#141
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Originally Posted by dingy
![](http://www.derbyshire-rsoc.co.uk/images/totd/Torque-of-the-Devil-RR-Graph-KIA.jpg)
Comparing Rolling roads is crazy...
Examples...
320 @ wheels at AVA - t34 slow LOL 405 on dyno and 380 @ fly in car
435 @ wheels at nobles and 561 @ fly T4 @ 31psi.....(boost from there dataloggin)
Now at TOTD it made 380@wheels and 450 @ fly but failed to hold boost and only ran 27psi...
Took radders out on road and checked boost - same as when it ran at nobles..
My runs @ totd had far to many variables and to many changes from 400 to 430 to 410 to 440 to 450.....Car remains the same just how the operator decided to run the car up... so am taking the figure with a pinch of salt cause the boost is down etc...also my graph shows it was run in 3rd and it was run up in 4th - gary @ apt mentioned this could be a possible 10-15-20bhp difference in the overall power...
Going on that and the lack of the 4 to 5 psi could explain the loss in power.
4x4 cars seem to have better readings than 2wd's also having looked at lloyds figure - made 50bhp more than mine at a part run with a very simular engine and i think less boost...
Also why did billiecabs make less power over night....and claimed to be hiting the boost limit....nothing had changed on the car...
Euan, just for the record i don't think your car would make 500bhp at the fly here going on what mine made at the wheels at AVA....very interesting though and am coming up to AVA early next year to have a power run
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Less boost mean less power.
Who would come to AVA if i orginised a rolling road day?
#143
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Originally Posted by dingy
Originally Posted by Daviet
funny that most of the cars that lost power probably had 3 letters on the back of there cars
so the cars that didnt magically lose power on the rollers yesterday would yous expect to make lots more power with a better fan??![Surprised](https://passionford.com/forum/images/smilies/bigcry.gif)
![Surprised](https://passionford.com/forum/images/smilies/bigcry.gif)
![Surprised](https://passionford.com/forum/images/smilies/bigcry.gif)
so the cars that didnt magically lose power on the rollers yesterday would yous expect to make lots more power with a better fan??
![Surprised](https://passionford.com/forum/images/smilies/bigcry.gif)
Alexf?
Billie Cab ?
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1, chris has never run an auto car on the rollers bfore (other than 2 big heavy mosnter cars) so there was no actual real data he could have compared against, there was no way he could have seen where the power losses could have come from or how the graph could have been interpreted
2, auto cars don't respond very well on the rollers, i've been to a few with an auto (the 24V) and the differences are quite remarkable
120 @ the wheels = 240 at the fly?
then, the next time the car was run it made 140 @ the wheels = 180 at the fly
3, the graph ewssentially reproduced exactly the same resluts as the car would do on the road, no power below 2000 rpm and suddenly coming alive after about 4000 rpm right up till the 6500 rpm red line
4, some people said the cat did smell a bit offs o a blockage in there might have contributed to the poor resluts of 90@the wheels and 112 or so at the fly
as far as i could make out, alex was of the onion that either bmw vastly over inflated their figures or that the rollers were wrong, but, again, wihtout another car there to compare it against, there is no way to tell one way or the other
don't know about cab
so there we have it, i'm happy with the way the car performs out on the road and, unlike some others, i took the printout and didn't query it, i on;y wanted to see what the car put out and to make up the numbers, if there had been space i would have bought the vito along, which is supposed to make 110 brake
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#147
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[quote="dingy"]![](http://www.derbyshire-rsoc.co.uk/images/totd/Torque-of-the-Devil-RR-Graph-KIA.jpg)
Comparing Rolling roads is crazy...
Examples...
320 @ wheels at AVA - t34 slow LOL 405 on dyno and 380 @ fly in car
435 @ wheels at nobles and 561 @ fly T4 @ 31psi.....(boost from there dataloggin)
Now at TOTD it made 380@wheels and 450 @ fly but failed to hold boost and only ran 27psi...
Took radders out on road and checked boost - same as when it ran at nobles..
My runs @ totd had far to many variables and to many changes from 400 to 430 to 410 to 440 to 450.....Car remains the same just how the operator decided to run the car up... so am taking the figure with a pinch of salt cause the boost is down etc...also my graph shows it was run in 3rd and it was run up in 4th - gary @ apt mentioned this could be a possible 10-15-20bhp difference in the overall power...
Going on that and the lack of the 4 to 5 psi could explain the loss in power.
4x4 cars seem to have better readings than 2wd's also having looked at lloyds figure - made 50bhp more than mine at a part run with a very simular engine and i think less boost...
Also why did billiecabs make less power over night....and claimed to be hiting the boost limit....nothing had changed on the car...
The reasons for the variables in the power of your car were explained at the time, we think the air injectors may have been responsible for freaking out the air temp sensor, we changed the sensor for you and its position and cured that, checked straps etc many times and still the car showed no more than 450 odd bhp, obviously people will lean towards believing the higher power figure from another dyno no matter how innacurate that may have been, 126 bhp transmission loss on the noble dyno for a 2wd car?, jesus.
Billie cabrio's car was overboosting when tested, this was not "claimed" as you put it, it was - period, this did not happen the night before or i would have never been able to tune it, air density effects boost pressure and must have tipped it over the boost limit threshold.
Can't wait for the next dyno day!, i love em!
![](http://www.derbyshire-rsoc.co.uk/images/totd/Torque-of-the-Devil-RR-Graph-KIA.jpg)
Comparing Rolling roads is crazy...
Examples...
320 @ wheels at AVA - t34 slow LOL 405 on dyno and 380 @ fly in car
435 @ wheels at nobles and 561 @ fly T4 @ 31psi.....(boost from there dataloggin)
Now at TOTD it made 380@wheels and 450 @ fly but failed to hold boost and only ran 27psi...
Took radders out on road and checked boost - same as when it ran at nobles..
My runs @ totd had far to many variables and to many changes from 400 to 430 to 410 to 440 to 450.....Car remains the same just how the operator decided to run the car up... so am taking the figure with a pinch of salt cause the boost is down etc...also my graph shows it was run in 3rd and it was run up in 4th - gary @ apt mentioned this could be a possible 10-15-20bhp difference in the overall power...
Going on that and the lack of the 4 to 5 psi could explain the loss in power.
4x4 cars seem to have better readings than 2wd's also having looked at lloyds figure - made 50bhp more than mine at a part run with a very simular engine and i think less boost...
Also why did billiecabs make less power over night....and claimed to be hiting the boost limit....nothing had changed on the car...
The reasons for the variables in the power of your car were explained at the time, we think the air injectors may have been responsible for freaking out the air temp sensor, we changed the sensor for you and its position and cured that, checked straps etc many times and still the car showed no more than 450 odd bhp, obviously people will lean towards believing the higher power figure from another dyno no matter how innacurate that may have been, 126 bhp transmission loss on the noble dyno for a 2wd car?, jesus.
Billie cabrio's car was overboosting when tested, this was not "claimed" as you put it, it was - period, this did not happen the night before or i would have never been able to tune it, air density effects boost pressure and must have tipped it over the boost limit threshold.
Can't wait for the next dyno day!, i love em!
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#148
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Originally Posted by BillyCabrio
Originally Posted by AndyRST
Originally Posted by dingy
[img]
Also why did billiecabs make less power over night....and claimed to be hiting the boost limit....nothing had changed on the car...
Also why did billiecabs make less power over night....and claimed to be hiting the boost limit....nothing had changed on the car...
Its now a reliable car with good power......
Thanks Chris for your magic, out 'little' chat and suprising me with what you said after ny RR run yesterday
![Wink](https://passionford.com/forum/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif)
Also thanks to Radders for organising the whole event, good to see Lee again and out 'heated' chat with Radders
![Surprised](https://passionford.com/forum/images/smilies/bigcry.gif)
![Surprised](https://passionford.com/forum/images/smilies/bigcry.gif)
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#149
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[quote="Chris@torque of the devil"]
![](http://www.derbyshire-rsoc.co.uk/images/totd/Torque-of-the-Devil-RR-Graph-KIA.jpg)
Comparing Rolling roads is crazy...
Examples...
320 @ wheels at AVA - t34 slow LOL 405 on dyno and 380 @ fly in car
435 @ wheels at nobles and 561 @ fly T4 @ 31psi.....(boost from there dataloggin)
Now at TOTD it made 380@wheels and 450 @ fly but failed to hold boost and only ran 27psi...
Took radders out on road and checked boost - same as when it ran at nobles..
My runs @ totd had far to many variables and to many changes from 400 to 430 to 410 to 440 to 450.....Car remains the same just how the operator decided to run the car up... so am taking the figure with a pinch of salt cause the boost is down etc...also my graph shows it was run in 3rd and it was run up in 4th - gary @ apt mentioned this could be a possible 10-15-20bhp difference in the overall power...
Going on that and the lack of the 4 to 5 psi could explain the loss in power.
4x4 cars seem to have better readings than 2wd's also having looked at lloyds figure - made 50bhp more than mine at a part run with a very simular engine and i think less boost...
Also why did billiecabs make less power over night....and claimed to be hiting the boost limit....nothing had changed on the car...
The reasons for the variables in the power of your car were explained at the time, I went to great lengths to remove any doubt the car was run correctly, we think the air injectors may have been responsible for freaking out the air temp sensor, we changed the sensor for you and its position and cured that, checked straps etc many times and still the car showed no more than 450 odd bhp, obviously people will lean towards believing the higher power figure from another dyno no matter how innacurate that may have been, 126 bhp transmission loss on the noble dyno for a 2wd car?, jesus.
Billie cabrio's car was overboosting when tested, this was not "claimed" as you put it, it was - period, this did not happen the night before or i would have never been able to tune it, air density effects boost pressure and must have tipped it over the boost limit threshold.
we also proved with both linsay's and john nutter's cars that a 3rd run or 4th gear run made no difference to the peak power shown.
Can't wait for the next dyno day!, i love em!
Originally Posted by dingy
![](http://www.derbyshire-rsoc.co.uk/images/totd/Torque-of-the-Devil-RR-Graph-KIA.jpg)
Comparing Rolling roads is crazy...
Examples...
320 @ wheels at AVA - t34 slow LOL 405 on dyno and 380 @ fly in car
435 @ wheels at nobles and 561 @ fly T4 @ 31psi.....(boost from there dataloggin)
Now at TOTD it made 380@wheels and 450 @ fly but failed to hold boost and only ran 27psi...
Took radders out on road and checked boost - same as when it ran at nobles..
My runs @ totd had far to many variables and to many changes from 400 to 430 to 410 to 440 to 450.....Car remains the same just how the operator decided to run the car up... so am taking the figure with a pinch of salt cause the boost is down etc...also my graph shows it was run in 3rd and it was run up in 4th - gary @ apt mentioned this could be a possible 10-15-20bhp difference in the overall power...
Going on that and the lack of the 4 to 5 psi could explain the loss in power.
4x4 cars seem to have better readings than 2wd's also having looked at lloyds figure - made 50bhp more than mine at a part run with a very simular engine and i think less boost...
Also why did billiecabs make less power over night....and claimed to be hiting the boost limit....nothing had changed on the car...
Billie cabrio's car was overboosting when tested, this was not "claimed" as you put it, it was - period, this did not happen the night before or i would have never been able to tune it, air density effects boost pressure and must have tipped it over the boost limit threshold.
we also proved with both linsay's and john nutter's cars that a 3rd run or 4th gear run made no difference to the peak power shown.
Can't wait for the next dyno day!, i love em!
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#150
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So, with Dingy's, the difference really is 55bhp at the wheels, between Nobles and TOTD. I don't think Nobles 'Flywheel' figure should even be discussed. It's toilet.
55bhp is a feasible amount to lose if the boost was lower at TOTD for whatever reason. Mine wasn't though. 20pi on the road, 20psi on our dyno, 20psi on TOTD's. Simple as.
55bhp is a feasible amount to lose if the boost was lower at TOTD for whatever reason. Mine wasn't though. 20pi on the road, 20psi on our dyno, 20psi on TOTD's. Simple as.
#151
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The reasons for the variables in the power of your car were explained at the time, we think the air injectors may have been responsible for freaking out the air temp sensor, we changed the sensor for you and its position and cured that, checked straps etc many times and still the car showed no more than 450 odd bhp, obviously people will lean towards believing the higher power figure from another dyno no matter how innacurate that may have been, 126 bhp transmission loss on the noble dyno for a 2wd car?, jesus.
Billie cabrio's car was overboosting when tested, this was not "claimed" as you put it, it was - period, this did not happen the night before or i would have never been able to tune it, air density effects boost pressure and must have tipped it over the boost limit threshold.
Billie cabrio's car was overboosting when tested, this was not "claimed" as you put it, it was - period, this did not happen the night before or i would have never been able to tune it, air density effects boost pressure and must have tipped it over the boost limit threshold.
If your saying my car is 450bhp then fine but i honestly don't think it is, due the lack of boost on your rollers. Can you explain this ?
As for billies - wasn't the bleed valve being played with
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#152
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Originally Posted by Christian and Beccy
So, with Dingy's, the difference really is 55bhp at the wheels, between Nobles and TOTD. I don't think Nobles 'Flywheel' figure should even be discussed. It's toilet.
55bhp is a feasible amount to lose if the boost was lower at TOTD for whatever reason. Mine wasn't though. 20pi on the road, 20psi on our dyno, 20psi on TOTD's. Simple as.
55bhp is a feasible amount to lose if the boost was lower at TOTD for whatever reason. Mine wasn't though. 20pi on the road, 20psi on our dyno, 20psi on TOTD's. Simple as.
Thats like saying AVA's ATW figures is bollox to.
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Dingy, surely as a man who has been involved in the tuning scene for quite a few years, you must realise that 130bhp losses from a RWD transmission is beyond belief? So, IMO, disregard the Nobles flywheel figure and accept that the boost difference was the reason for the lack of power at TOTD. Not sure why, but there is no argument IMO.
#155
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So you're saying that 130bhp loss through the 2wd transmission is acceptable??
Absofuckinglutely not.
I believe you car made 430ATW at Nobles, but the 560bhp Flywheel figure is wank. TOTD estimated 70bhp between Wheel/Flywheel, which is a perfectly reasonable transmission loss figure, so based on that I reckon your car is just about 500bhp at 31psi.
Absofuckinglutely not.
I believe you car made 430ATW at Nobles, but the 560bhp Flywheel figure is wank. TOTD estimated 70bhp between Wheel/Flywheel, which is a perfectly reasonable transmission loss figure, so based on that I reckon your car is just about 500bhp at 31psi.
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#156
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Dingy - Billies bleed valve was being adjusted, its no secret and i'm sure you were not the only person to see me do it, the reason was to try and get the boost high enough to produce good power without it overboosting.
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#157
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Originally Posted by Chris@torque of the devil
Dingy - Billies bleed valve was being adjusted, its no secret and i'm sure you were not the only person to see me do it, the reason was to try and get the boost high enough to produce good power without it overboosting. ![Pthbbbb](https://passionford.com/forum/images/smilies/smile045.gif)
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#158
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Originally Posted by Christian and Beccy
So you're saying that 130bhp loss through the 2wd transmission is acceptable??
Absofuckinglutely not.
I believe you car made 430ATW at Nobles, but the 560bhp Flywheel figure is wank. TOTD estimated 70bhp between Wheel/Flywheel, which is a perfectly reasonable transmission loss figure, so based on that I reckon your car is just about 500bhp at 31psi.![Wink](https://passionford.com/forum/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif)
Absofuckinglutely not.
I believe you car made 430ATW at Nobles, but the 560bhp Flywheel figure is wank. TOTD estimated 70bhp between Wheel/Flywheel, which is a perfectly reasonable transmission loss figure, so based on that I reckon your car is just about 500bhp at 31psi.
![Wink](https://passionford.com/forum/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif)
Put the car in a straight line with the evo say in 3rd gear and see how much it doesn't pull away from me
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Dingy, thats not the discussion. We are discussing RR figures.
I have arrived at a reasonable explanation.
Imagine if I posted a claimed figure of 400bhp, but could only prove 280 at the wheels? You'd be all over me like a rash and you know it. Mine made 250ATW for 295 at the Flywheel. A perfectly reasonable loss figure.
Yours made 380ATW for 450 at the Flywheel, again a perfectly reasonable loss figure.
Gary's made just under 500ATW for 615 at the Flywheel. Guess what? Thats reasonable too.
However, 430ATW for 561 at the Flywheel is just comedy.
I have arrived at a reasonable explanation.
Imagine if I posted a claimed figure of 400bhp, but could only prove 280 at the wheels? You'd be all over me like a rash and you know it. Mine made 250ATW for 295 at the Flywheel. A perfectly reasonable loss figure.
Yours made 380ATW for 450 at the Flywheel, again a perfectly reasonable loss figure.
Gary's made just under 500ATW for 615 at the Flywheel. Guess what? Thats reasonable too.
However, 430ATW for 561 at the Flywheel is just comedy.
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