Torque of the Devil RR Day - 6th Oct
06-10-2007, 07:22 PM
#41
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Originally Posted by Karl
I did'nt mean to come across as criticising, apologies if I did. especially engines that end up running ACT's at 70DegC +.
would a rolling road operator run a car then at 70degc+ atc's then?
The power fc shows inlet temps as does my act gauge but i guess not all cars have that.
my car made more power on each run as i guess the turbos were getting warmed up nicely? I had a good day!
06-10-2007, 07:22 PM
#42
Norris Motorsport
AndyRST,
I can comment because I am an experienced engineer who does know the capability of fans, especially considering I spent many years working at Jaguar in wind tunnel/RR environments.
I can comment because I am an experienced engineer who does know the capability of fans, especially considering I spent many years working at Jaguar in wind tunnel/RR environments.
06-10-2007, 07:27 PM
#44
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Originally Posted by Karl
AndyRST,
I can comment because I am an experienced engineer who does know the capability of fans, especially considering I spent many years working at Jaguar in wind tunnel/RR environments.
I can comment because I am an experienced engineer who does know the capability of fans, especially considering I spent many years working at Jaguar in wind tunnel/RR environments.
What Kw rating is that fan used today Karl ?
06-10-2007, 07:29 PM
#45
Originally Posted by AndyRST
Originally Posted by Karl
There is categorically no way a fan of that diameter could generate 150mph wind speed at the front of the car, given the size of the motor driving the fan.
Cause he knows what he is on about, just like if someone asked you why you were commenting on something related to your profession?
06-10-2007, 07:35 PM
#47
well guys i was a little down hearted today with the red escort s2 turbo as she only made 130 at the fly due to what we thought was an ignition problem it turnt out to be the wrong camshaft, so i changed it aftre the run for a proper turbo cam and christ its a different car, just wish i had done this last night 
then i would of had a better run, i'll get it booked back in asap for another power run
then i would of had a better run, i'll get it booked back in asap for another power run
06-10-2007, 07:39 PM
#48
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No not an argument just someone thinking they know better than
someone else who does actualy know what they are talking about
Karl has explained what the fan cant deliver end of, i would take Karl's
advice over any r road operator
someone else who does actualy know what they are talking about
Karl has explained what the fan cant deliver end of, i would take Karl's
advice over any r road operator
06-10-2007, 08:02 PM
#49
10K+ Poster!!
Just got back in and had a great day.
I took my mates 3 door which made 372.5hp and 375lb ft which is bang on.
Act's were perfect on the 3 door whilst I watched it, if anyone else monitored their car there feel free to mention what they were running.
Maybe when Dingys car was run it was maybe pushed to the limit but he seemed happy with them trying to find the fault.
Good day all round, thanks to Radders (you miserable cunt) for organzing it, Peformance Ford for the pics and Torque of the Devil for a great day.
I took my mates 3 door which made 372.5hp and 375lb ft which is bang on.
Act's were perfect on the 3 door whilst I watched it, if anyone else monitored their car there feel free to mention what they were running.
Maybe when Dingys car was run it was maybe pushed to the limit but he seemed happy with them trying to find the fault.
Good day all round, thanks to Radders (you miserable cunt) for organzing it, Peformance Ford for the pics and Torque of the Devil for a great day.
06-10-2007, 08:12 PM
#51
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Thread Starter
Originally Posted by simon170
That fan in mental, with all four wheels locked it still nearly pushes its self long.
Andy,
Karl is right matey.
Alex
06-10-2007, 08:12 PM
#52
maybe you want to change your sig then rad 
it was a great day
as for the fan stuff, it was blowing plenty hard from where i could see and they could have put it right up to the bumper, but they didn't because it would have then blown all the wires and stuff all over the shop
probably
it was blowing the guys in front of it all over the place
it was a great day
as for the fan stuff, it was blowing plenty hard from where i could see and they could have put it right up to the bumper, but they didn't because it would have then blown all the wires and stuff all over the shop
probably
it was blowing the guys in front of it all over the place
06-10-2007, 08:38 PM
#54
Torque of the Devils fan is 15kw, ours is 11kw. Theirs has an open outlet and is slightly larger in diameter to ours. Ours has a 'nozzle' on the front which increases air speed. They are both very good fans. OK, so perhaps not as good as those in the multi-million pound test faclities belonging to top manufacturers, but then we (speaking for most tuners) aren't expecting to cram 15 hours of relentless map-writing into 9 hour days. That fan is more than adequate for power runs and for mapping, both coolant temps and air temps can be monitored, if they begin the get out of an acceptable range, the car is given a break. Simple.
For those that doubt the figures generated today, I for one hope TOTD's dyno under-reads (I really don't think it does) as my little 1600 made 295bhp consistently over at least 3 runs at just over 20psi. Gary's Evo made between 605-615bhp over 3 runs at 26psi of boost.
I had a bit of drama leading up to the event. Last night whilst giving the RST a bit of a checkover for the low boost run I had intended, the head showed signs of passing water so at 7.00 this morning I was at work swapping head-bolts. At 8.00 I put it on our Dyno, where it made between 290 and 300bhp, then we drove to TOTD where it made 295bhp!! Can't ask for more consistent results than that!!
Great day, nice one Radders for organising it and big-up to the TOTD team (can't believe how many of you there are!!)
For those that doubt the figures generated today, I for one hope TOTD's dyno under-reads (I really don't think it does) as my little 1600 made 295bhp consistently over at least 3 runs at just over 20psi. Gary's Evo made between 605-615bhp over 3 runs at 26psi of boost.
I had a bit of drama leading up to the event. Last night whilst giving the RST a bit of a checkover for the low boost run I had intended, the head showed signs of passing water so at 7.00 this morning I was at work swapping head-bolts. At 8.00 I put it on our Dyno, where it made between 290 and 300bhp, then we drove to TOTD where it made 295bhp!! Can't ask for more consistent results than that!!
Great day, nice one Radders for organising it and big-up to the TOTD team (can't believe how many of you there are!!)
06-10-2007, 08:54 PM
#55
I didnt mean to put any doubt on the day it just seemed to me that a few of the specs of the cars seemed a fair bit down on power.. Yes it was a good day and cant fault Mr Todd and the boys one bit in fact thay are all very nice people indeed Just cant see how dingy could loose over 100 hp in a week and a few others too Nutter etc ... But thay did change some sort of temp sensor on the dyno whilst dingys car was on there but i left as thay was doing this so i don't no what the out come was
But as a whole i was impressed with the set up and staff and i no that are very capable people
But as a whole i was impressed with the set up and staff and i no that are very capable people
06-10-2007, 09:12 PM
#56
Norris Motorsport
Just to clarify folks, I was in no way criticising torque of the devil. I was simply commenting on the problems associated with RR's and in no way was singling out TOTD.
Christian, as much as I consider you a friend, I totally disagree about mapping a car on a RR. You simply CANNOT map a turbocharged car running high boost levels on a RR. You cannot sustain enough cooling adequately to maintain both ACT's, load, radiated cooling and of course extraction cooling caused by air flow both under and over the car. You also cannot create the necessary pressure differentials required to allow airflow through the radiator and intercooler matrix, as you would on a high speed run in the real world.
RR's are great diagnostic machines for fault finding and a good tool for checking out the effect of things such as cam timing, etc, but you cannot map a highly boosted turbo engine correctly.
Christian, as much as I consider you a friend, I totally disagree about mapping a car on a RR. You simply CANNOT map a turbocharged car running high boost levels on a RR. You cannot sustain enough cooling adequately to maintain both ACT's, load, radiated cooling and of course extraction cooling caused by air flow both under and over the car. You also cannot create the necessary pressure differentials required to allow airflow through the radiator and intercooler matrix, as you would on a high speed run in the real world.
RR's are great diagnostic machines for fault finding and a good tool for checking out the effect of things such as cam timing, etc, but you cannot map a highly boosted turbo engine correctly.
06-10-2007, 09:12 PM
#57
Had a great day, huge thanks to the Torque of the Devil team for being so accomodating for me, nutter and dingy 
Karl has warned me before about running on any rolling road and it's something we all do at our own risk but we end up going anyway for the fun of it - the drive there and back is best
Am proud of my car and it does what it does and i love it
Great to see everyone again - looking forward to Brands
Karl has warned me before about running on any rolling road and it's something we all do at our own risk but we end up going anyway for the fun of it - the drive there and back is best
Am proud of my car and it does what it does and i love it
Great to see everyone again - looking forward to Brands
06-10-2007, 09:19 PM
#58
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karl, you have you ideas and we have ours
im not knocking you!!!(hell who else would give us cvh advice
..thanks again)
but we have mapped loads of cars on our dyno that have never been live mapped on road
yes some are prob left safe as it be madness to take so close to edge but depends on what customers needs are
mine as never had map altered on road as theres no need
im not knocking you!!!(hell who else would give us cvh advice
..thanks again)but we have mapped loads of cars on our dyno that have never been live mapped on road
yes some are prob left safe as it be madness to take so close to edge but depends on what customers needs are
mine as never had map altered on road as theres no need
Originally Posted by Karl
Just to clarify folks, I was in no way criticising torque of the devil. I was simply commenting on the problems associated with RR's and in no way was singling out TOTD.
Christian, as much as I consider you a friend, I totally disagree about mapping a car on a RR. You simply CANNOT map a turbocharged car running high boost levels on a RR. You cannot sustain enough cooling adequately to maintain both ACT's, load, radiated cooling and of course extraction cooling caused by air flow both under and over the car. You also cannot create the necessary pressure differentials required to allow airflow through the radiator and intercooler matrix, as you would on a high speed run in the real world.
RR's are great diagnostic machines for fault finding and a good tool for checking out the effect of things such as cam timing, etc, but you cannot map a highly boosted turbo engine correctly.
Christian, as much as I consider you a friend, I totally disagree about mapping a car on a RR. You simply CANNOT map a turbocharged car running high boost levels on a RR. You cannot sustain enough cooling adequately to maintain both ACT's, load, radiated cooling and of course extraction cooling caused by air flow both under and over the car. You also cannot create the necessary pressure differentials required to allow airflow through the radiator and intercooler matrix, as you would on a high speed run in the real world.
RR's are great diagnostic machines for fault finding and a good tool for checking out the effect of things such as cam timing, etc, but you cannot map a highly boosted turbo engine correctly.
06-10-2007, 09:31 PM
#60
Yes Karl, as Gary said, thanks for your help last night!! 
I do feel that the Road vs RR mapping thing is a 2-sided coin that has been covered again and again. I agree that it is possible that the perfect conditions may not be achievable on the RR or even engine dyno, but in all honesty, the perfect conditions cannot be achieved on the road either. You can't tell me that holding a laptop in the passenger seat of a 500bhp Cossie or a 300bhp RST, you are really certain that the map gets 100% of your attention and that every detail is perfect when finished? We have been there and weighed up the pro's and con's and the Dyno won for us and we certainly don't regret it. I would be keen to know how many people who own Dyno's truly believe that road-mapping is the better way.
Anyway, that's off topic!! LOL.
I do feel that the Road vs RR mapping thing is a 2-sided coin that has been covered again and again. I agree that it is possible that the perfect conditions may not be achievable on the RR or even engine dyno, but in all honesty, the perfect conditions cannot be achieved on the road either. You can't tell me that holding a laptop in the passenger seat of a 500bhp Cossie or a 300bhp RST, you are really certain that the map gets 100% of your attention and that every detail is perfect when finished? We have been there and weighed up the pro's and con's and the Dyno won for us and we certainly don't regret it. I would be keen to know how many people who own Dyno's truly believe that road-mapping is the better way.
Anyway, that's off topic!! LOL.
06-10-2007, 09:33 PM
#62
Norris Motorsport
Hi C,
Yes I hope so, as long as Oli and Tim get an invite. We were told this year by Fast Ford we could not run as Oli's car had appeared last year in the mag. LOL
Yes I hope so, as long as Oli and Tim get an invite. We were told this year by Fast Ford we could not run as Oli's car had appeared last year in the mag. LOL
06-10-2007, 10:00 PM
#64
10K+ Poster!!
Originally Posted by Karl
Just to clarify folks, I was in no way criticising torque of the devil. I was simply commenting on the problems associated with RR's and in no way was singling out TOTD.
Christian, as much as I consider you a friend, I totally disagree about mapping a car on a RR. You simply CANNOT map a turbocharged car running high boost levels on a RR. You cannot sustain enough cooling adequately to maintain both ACT's, load, radiated cooling and of course extraction cooling caused by air flow both under and over the car. You also cannot create the necessary pressure differentials required to allow airflow through the radiator and intercooler matrix, as you would on a high speed run in the real world.
RR's are great diagnostic machines for fault finding and a good tool for checking out the effect of things such as cam timing, etc, but you cannot map a highly boosted turbo engine correctly.
Christian, as much as I consider you a friend, I totally disagree about mapping a car on a RR. You simply CANNOT map a turbocharged car running high boost levels on a RR. You cannot sustain enough cooling adequately to maintain both ACT's, load, radiated cooling and of course extraction cooling caused by air flow both under and over the car. You also cannot create the necessary pressure differentials required to allow airflow through the radiator and intercooler matrix, as you would on a high speed run in the real world.
RR's are great diagnostic machines for fault finding and a good tool for checking out the effect of things such as cam timing, etc, but you cannot map a highly boosted turbo engine correctly.
My car has been entirely mapped on the rollers with no trouble what so ever.
06-10-2007, 10:15 PM
#66
Norris Motorsport
Chaps,
I did'nt say you can't map a car on the RR, just that you cannot create the correct environment to map the car properly. Obviously some RR are better than others.
Ok just to give a very laymans term example................
How do you simulate that winter morning Bruntingthorpe top speed run at 170mph+ with air temps of 5degC on a RR? Answer is you can't, you have to go to Bruntingthorpe and map the car!
Forgot to mention in answer to C's earlier question about how you live map on the road, well actually I do a lot of data logging then return to the workshop and review the work over a cuppa, revise and go out again, etc.
Remember also that an engine makes 3% more power for every 10DegC air temp reduction, but this also requires the correct ignition timing and fueling. Unless mapped in these conditions in the real world, the RR map will be a different set of conditions, not necessarily wrong for those conditions on the RR, but potentially a long way from the maximum power and hence fuel/ignition requirments that would be seen on the winter mornings bruntingthorpe top speed run.
Are you confident your fuel system can cope with the extra 10 - 20% power increase you may have on that runway, or that your ignition top line is safe for that sustained 40 second run???
I did'nt say you can't map a car on the RR, just that you cannot create the correct environment to map the car properly. Obviously some RR are better than others.
Ok just to give a very laymans term example................
How do you simulate that winter morning Bruntingthorpe top speed run at 170mph+ with air temps of 5degC on a RR? Answer is you can't, you have to go to Bruntingthorpe and map the car!
Forgot to mention in answer to C's earlier question about how you live map on the road, well actually I do a lot of data logging then return to the workshop and review the work over a cuppa, revise and go out again, etc.
Remember also that an engine makes 3% more power for every 10DegC air temp reduction, but this also requires the correct ignition timing and fueling. Unless mapped in these conditions in the real world, the RR map will be a different set of conditions, not necessarily wrong for those conditions on the RR, but potentially a long way from the maximum power and hence fuel/ignition requirments that would be seen on the winter mornings bruntingthorpe top speed run.
Are you confident your fuel system can cope with the extra 10 - 20% power increase you may have on that runway, or that your ignition top line is safe for that sustained 40 second run???
06-10-2007, 10:20 PM
#68
Norris Motorsport
Datalogging mate for cars that are very quick. Also remember that I drive fast cars flat out for several hours everyday, and thus am pretty aquinted with driving and mapping at high speeds!
Edit: LOL in case he's reading may I also add that Oli is also quite fearless during mapping!! It's not a job for the faint hearted!
Edit: LOL in case he's reading may I also add that Oli is also quite fearless during mapping!!
It's not a job for the faint hearted!
06-10-2007, 10:22 PM
#69
In that case Karl, I don't know how you have survived this long!!
When we mapped on the road, we usually had Gary driving and me mapping. 2 people that know and trust each other beyond that which can be achieved from Customer driving, mapper mapping. I still say there is a skill to driving a car that is being mapped, just as there is a skill to mapping it.
When we mapped on the road, we usually had Gary driving and me mapping. 2 people that know and trust each other beyond that which can be achieved from Customer driving, mapper mapping. I still say there is a skill to driving a car that is being mapped, just as there is a skill to mapping it.
06-10-2007, 10:23 PM
#70
10K+ Poster!!
Karl, Im in no way qualified to disagree with what your saying BUT your statement above said that you CANNOT map high boost turbo charged cars on the rollers.
This is not my experience.
This is not my experience.
06-10-2007, 10:24 PM
#71
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does that mean karl you go to brunters and map a car for the 4 seasons of the year
mine is mapped with air temp corrections for ignition and fuelling
these prob arnt 100% as we only have a few days to map but are so close it wont cause a problem
you know as well as i do O/E mapping takes hours to do someone quoted elise mapping took 6 month with 3 teams of guys mapping in 8 hour shifts
we get no time at all
mine is mapped with air temp corrections for ignition and fuelling
these prob arnt 100% as we only have a few days to map but are so close it wont cause a problem
you know as well as i do O/E mapping takes hours to do someone quoted elise mapping took 6 month with 3 teams of guys mapping in 8 hour shifts
we get no time at all
06-10-2007, 10:28 PM
#72
Norris Motorsport
Christian, I agree it is not a job I take lightly. It requires skill and nerves, but as with all things it gets easier with time and experience.
Rapid cossie, you are playing my words. By cannot I mean you CANNOT simulate the correct conditions which is potentially dangerous. Obviously you can map any car on a RR physically. (i.e by cannot i mean "cannot correctly" not "cannot physically")
Another good example is how many cars do you see being tested live at brunters during top speed runs....................errr most of them. Why would we do this if we were confident with our RR map?
Rapid cossie, you are playing my words. By cannot I mean you CANNOT simulate the correct conditions which is potentially dangerous. Obviously you can map any car on a RR physically. (i.e by cannot i mean "cannot correctly" not "cannot physically")
Another good example is how many cars do you see being tested live at brunters during top speed runs....................errr most of them. Why would we do this if we were confident with our RR map?
06-10-2007, 10:30 PM
#73
10K+ Poster!!
Originally Posted by Karl
Christian, I agree it is not a job I take lightly. It requires skill and nerves, but as with all things it gets easier with time and experience.
Rapid cossie, you are playing my words. By cannot I mean you CANNOT simulate the correct conditions which is potentially dangerous. Obviously you can map any car on a RR physically. (i.e by cannot i mean "cannot correctly" not "cannot physically")
Another good example is how many cars do you see being tested live at brunters during top speed runs....................errr most of them. Why would we do this if we were confident with our RR map?
Rapid cossie, you are playing my words. By cannot I mean you CANNOT simulate the correct conditions which is potentially dangerous. Obviously you can map any car on a RR physically. (i.e by cannot i mean "cannot correctly" not "cannot physically")
Another good example is how many cars do you see being tested live at brunters during top speed runs....................errr most of them. Why would we do this if we were confident with our RR map?
My car was not tested on the run way, as we were confident in how it was set up.
we were not measuring afrs when it ran at woodbridge or listening for det.
06-10-2007, 10:33 PM
#76
Norris Motorsport
Gary I so 100% agree with you, the time we get to map is pathetic relatively, and I always say to folk that to have a car mapped properly should cost 0000's if we were to spend the correct amount of time. Hence I spend the majority of my time mapping flat out to ensure reliability as for what folk are prepared to pay there simply is'nt enough time to map every scenario.
Yes I insist all cars return for a winter map, and I keep these map changes on file for all cars. Obviously the more cars you map the more trends you learn and thus can extrapolate reasonably accurate for most conditions. The main problem with cold air temps is whether the fuel system and indeed available injector duration at high rpm, is adequate for the extra power on a winter morning top speed run. Only mapping in these conditions reveals the truth.
Yes I insist all cars return for a winter map, and I keep these map changes on file for all cars. Obviously the more cars you map the more trends you learn and thus can extrapolate reasonably accurate for most conditions. The main problem with cold air temps is whether the fuel system and indeed available injector duration at high rpm, is adequate for the extra power on a winter morning top speed run. Only mapping in these conditions reveals the truth.
06-10-2007, 10:53 PM
#77
Christian and Beccy
i had the pleasure of having the rolling road forms when radders went out with dingy,
how come you only predicted 250bhp? i no alot of people got figures well below what they thought, perhaps, due to high figures in the past (although dingy loosing 150bhp is a bit painful)
not picking, just curiouse?
whilst on the subject of oyur car, the new manifold and screamer pipe set up looks awsome, wish had enough time to see it run,
alex f, i no yours was 20bhp down on what you expected, but fromt he graph, it looked like it was heading that way if it was revved to the red line isted of 1000rpm short? bit wierd that one
wa sa brilliant day though
lee
i had the pleasure of having the rolling road forms when radders went out with dingy,
how come you only predicted 250bhp? i no alot of people got figures well below what they thought, perhaps, due to high figures in the past (although dingy loosing 150bhp is a bit painful)
not picking, just curiouse?
whilst on the subject of oyur car, the new manifold and screamer pipe set up looks awsome, wish had enough time to see it run,
alex f, i no yours was 20bhp down on what you expected, but fromt he graph, it looked like it was heading that way if it was revved to the red line isted of 1000rpm short? bit wierd that one
wa sa brilliant day though
lee
06-10-2007, 11:30 PM
#78
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Originally Posted by Karl
Datalogging mate for cars that are very quick. Also remember that I drive fast cars flat out for several hours everyday, and thus am pretty aquinted with driving and mapping at high speeds!
Edit: LOL in case he's reading may I also add that Oli is also quite fearless during mapping!! It's not a job for the faint hearted!
Edit: LOL in case he's reading may I also add that Oli is also quite fearless during mapping!!
It's not a job for the faint hearted!
07-10-2007, 12:01 AM
#79
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that was actually quite a good read for a change
bloody hell karl, you must be getting old, or have more time on your hands. i used to like the im popping online to read a post ( in between mapping a car ), answer it and cause a war type post lol
bloody hell karl, you must be getting old, or have more time on your hands. i used to like the im popping online to read a post ( in between mapping a car ), answer it and cause a war type post lol
07-10-2007, 01:53 AM
#80
Euan, whatever your car did on a conservative mapbased on estimates of what it would encounter in the real world based on knowledge gained about it from a rolling road, it could almost certainly have done slightly better if tweaked in the real world.
That's the point Karl is making, getting 95% of the way there on a set of rollers isnt a problem, its that last couple of degrees that you can only dial in with any confidence by doing so "live"
That's the point Karl is making, getting 95% of the way there on a set of rollers isnt a problem, its that last couple of degrees that you can only dial in with any confidence by doing so "live"