Torque of the Devil RR Day - 6th Oct
Well that was an eye opening read for a sunday morning 
07-10-2007, 09:06 AM
#83
on a totaly seperate note, christan was totaly a different fella from what i was expecting him to be, he looked like he's just walked out of a marks and sparks catalog 
but he was also well spoken and very modest about what he was expecting
nice to have met you mate
and sorry for having to shoot of without saying good bye to everyone other than radders
but he was also well spoken and very modest about what he was expecting
nice to have met you mate
and sorry for having to shoot of without saying good bye to everyone other than radders
07-10-2007, 09:16 AM
#84
Originally Posted by zippyobrien
Christian and Beccy
i had the pleasure of having the rolling road forms when radders went out with dingy,
how come you only predicted 250bhp? i no alot of people got figures well below what they thought, perhaps, due to high figures in the past (although dingy loosing 150bhp is a bit painful)
not picking, just curiouse?
whilst on the subject of oyur car, the new manifold and screamer pipe set up looks awsome, wish had enough time to see it run,
i had the pleasure of having the rolling road forms when radders went out with dingy,
how come you only predicted 250bhp? i no alot of people got figures well below what they thought, perhaps, due to high figures in the past (although dingy loosing 150bhp is a bit painful)
not picking, just curiouse?
whilst on the subject of oyur car, the new manifold and screamer pipe set up looks awsome, wish had enough time to see it run,
I estimated 250bhp with tongue-in-cheek. I knew what it was going to make because I had run it on our Dyno Dynamics Dyno only 4 or 5 hours earlier. I didn't really want to make a realistic estimate.
Thanks for your comments. I'm pleased with how the conversion has worked out. Still plenty of tidying up to do, but it's getting there!!
Originally Posted by Chip-3Door
Euan, whatever your car did on a conservative mapbased on estimates of what it would encounter in the real world based on knowledge gained about it from a rolling road, it could almost certainly have done slightly better if tweaked in the real world.
That's the point Karl is making, getting 95% of the way there on a set of rollers isnt a problem, its that last couple of degrees that you can only dial in with any confidence by doing so "live"
That's the point Karl is making, getting 95% of the way there on a set of rollers isnt a problem, its that last couple of degrees that you can only dial in with any confidence by doing so "live"
We can add 2 degress then overlay the graph with the last one, seeing which points in the RPM range (if any) that the extra timing actually made any difference. We can then add of timing to the parts that it is needed and remove from those parts where it made no difference, achieving optimum effect without running unnecessary timing advance.
I am genuinely interested in how optimum timing is achieved on the road.
Originally Posted by dojj
on a totaly seperate note, christan was totaly a different fella from what i was expecting him to be, he looked like he's just walked out of a marks and sparks catalog
but he was also well spoken and very modest about what he was expecting
nice to have met you mate and sorry for having to shoot of without saying good bye to everyone other than radders
but he was also well spoken and very modest about what he was expecting
nice to have met you mate
and sorry for having to shoot of without saying good bye to everyone other than radders Must be a Norfolk thing, you met Mike R??
"Like he's just walked out of a Salon"
Nice to have met you too. Was a good day.
07-10-2007, 09:21 AM
#85
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A big thank you from the Torque of the Devil staff and myself to everyone who participated yesterday, I had a great day and it was wonderfull to see such a wide variety of cars.
some people where obviously upset at the figures they recieved on our dyno but I believe them to be as accurate as possible without removing the engine from the car and bolting it on an engine dyno, and we have a very recent certificate of calibration on the wall for all to see.
we all have our own thoughts on chassis dyno/engine dyno mapping and chassis dyno vs road mapping but in my experience people who do their mapping on the road don't have a chassis dyno, i disagree that cars mapped on the road will have the correct airflow through the intercooler and radiator etc, especially when they are modified and fitted with oversize intercoolers partially restricting air flow to water radiators and modified grilles/spotlamps etc deflecting airflow, a vehicle that participated yesterday had an oil cooler situated behind both its intercooler and water radiator, obviously a packaging issue and "better than not having one at all" but by no means ideal.
as has been mentioned before, a chassis dyno is a great tool for comparing tuning changes, who is to say if any of them read correctly or not?, they can only estimate the engine output, stick to the one you always use to see what tuning improvements work or not, thats the only way to go in my opinion.
lastly thank you to Gary and Christian from APT for attending the day, its so nice to see other tuners showing up at days like these. both of your cars are truly awesome and show the full extend of the time and effort you have put in to make them what they are, top work lads.
chris.
some people where obviously upset at the figures they recieved on our dyno but I believe them to be as accurate as possible without removing the engine from the car and bolting it on an engine dyno, and we have a very recent certificate of calibration on the wall for all to see.
we all have our own thoughts on chassis dyno/engine dyno mapping and chassis dyno vs road mapping but in my experience people who do their mapping on the road don't have a chassis dyno, i disagree that cars mapped on the road will have the correct airflow through the intercooler and radiator etc, especially when they are modified and fitted with oversize intercoolers partially restricting air flow to water radiators and modified grilles/spotlamps etc deflecting airflow, a vehicle that participated yesterday had an oil cooler situated behind both its intercooler and water radiator, obviously a packaging issue and "better than not having one at all" but by no means ideal.
as has been mentioned before, a chassis dyno is a great tool for comparing tuning changes, who is to say if any of them read correctly or not?, they can only estimate the engine output, stick to the one you always use to see what tuning improvements work or not, thats the only way to go in my opinion.
lastly thank you to Gary and Christian from APT for attending the day, its so nice to see other tuners showing up at days like these. both of your cars are truly awesome and show the full extend of the time and effort you have put in to make them what they are, top work lads.
chris.
07-10-2007, 09:24 AM
#86
Originally Posted by Chris@torque of the devil
A big thank you from the Torque of the Devil staff and myself to everyone who participated yesterday, I had a great day and it was wonderfull to see such a wide variety of cars.
some people where obviously upset at the figures they recieved on our dyno but I believe them to be as accurate as possible without removing the engine from the car and bolting it on an engine dyno, and we have a very recent certificate of calibration on the wall for all to see.
we all have our own thoughts on chassis dyno/engine dyno mapping and chassis dyno vs road mapping but in my experience people who do their mapping on the road don't have a chassis dyno, i disagree that cars mapped on the road will have the correct airflow through the intercooler and radiator etc, especially when they are modified and fitted with oversize intercoolers partially restricting air flow to water radiators and modified grilles/spotlamps etc deflecting airflow, a vehicle that participated yesterday had an oil cooler situated behind both its intercooler and water radiator, obviously a packaging issue and "better than not having one at all" but by no means ideal.
as has been mentioned before, a chassis dyno is a great tool for comparing tuning changes, who is to say if any of them read correctly or not?, they can only estimate the engine output, stick to the one you always use to see what tuning improvements work or not, thats the only way to go in my opinion.
lastly thank you to Gary and Christian from APT for attending the day, its so nice to see other tuners showing up at days like these. both of your cars are truly awesome and show the full extend of the time and effort you have put in to make them what they are, top work lads.
chris.
some people where obviously upset at the figures they recieved on our dyno but I believe them to be as accurate as possible without removing the engine from the car and bolting it on an engine dyno, and we have a very recent certificate of calibration on the wall for all to see.
we all have our own thoughts on chassis dyno/engine dyno mapping and chassis dyno vs road mapping but in my experience people who do their mapping on the road don't have a chassis dyno, i disagree that cars mapped on the road will have the correct airflow through the intercooler and radiator etc, especially when they are modified and fitted with oversize intercoolers partially restricting air flow to water radiators and modified grilles/spotlamps etc deflecting airflow, a vehicle that participated yesterday had an oil cooler situated behind both its intercooler and water radiator, obviously a packaging issue and "better than not having one at all" but by no means ideal.
as has been mentioned before, a chassis dyno is a great tool for comparing tuning changes, who is to say if any of them read correctly or not?, they can only estimate the engine output, stick to the one you always use to see what tuning improvements work or not, thats the only way to go in my opinion.
lastly thank you to Gary and Christian from APT for attending the day, its so nice to see other tuners showing up at days like these. both of your cars are truly awesome and show the full extend of the time and effort you have put in to make them what they are, top work lads.
chris.
It was great to meet the TOTD team and catch up with you again. You have a fantastic set-up. If you're even in the Norfolk area (LOL), you're always welcome to pop in. I'm pretty handle with a kettle.
Perhaps next RR day we hold in the early spring?
07-10-2007, 09:26 AM
#87
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Thread Starter
I'm going to back Karl up completely here... Then again we have both worked in the same industry! For big power Cars live map is essential.
The process a manufactures uses when developing a new (or even an existing engine) is similar this one:
DYNO
The 1st engines cost Ł100k plus each! You cannot afford to loose too many of these so an environment where you have complete and utter control of the engine is essential.
There are several evolutions (or Batches as ford like to call them) until the engine is starting to so what it needs to, in terms of power, fuel econo and emissions.
ROLLING ROAD
This is where you start to test the engine to see what effect the car itself has on the engine. You are now simulating real air/coolant flow.
This basically gets you 95% of the way there but thats all. Even at Ford where there is a rolling road that can give you a real 100+mph head wind over the entire car and control the temp from +30 to -30 degrees C not to mention atmospheric pressure control!!
For example you simply cannot assess what the throttle response feels like from the drivers seat.
LIVE MAPPING
The final step - if you like the polish to make it shine. You now have the real air flow through the coolers and air flow through the engine.
Where this fits in with aftermarket:
You have to remember guys that people who map are not starting from scratch. There is still the original map (plus of course experience) to go on.
You also have to consider what they are mapping for... typically power with a hint towards economy. No one cares about emissions, other than the very very easy MOT test.
If I has my way I would use a RR and then Live Map LOL!
Alex
The process a manufactures uses when developing a new (or even an existing engine) is similar this one:
DYNO
The 1st engines cost Ł100k plus each! You cannot afford to loose too many of these so an environment where you have complete and utter control of the engine is essential.
There are several evolutions (or Batches as ford like to call them) until the engine is starting to so what it needs to, in terms of power, fuel econo and emissions.
ROLLING ROAD
This is where you start to test the engine to see what effect the car itself has on the engine. You are now simulating real air/coolant flow.
This basically gets you 95% of the way there but thats all. Even at Ford where there is a rolling road that can give you a real 100+mph head wind over the entire car and control the temp from +30 to -30 degrees C not to mention atmospheric pressure control!!
For example you simply cannot assess what the throttle response feels like from the drivers seat.
LIVE MAPPING
The final step - if you like the polish to make it shine. You now have the real air flow through the coolers and air flow through the engine.
Where this fits in with aftermarket:
You have to remember guys that people who map are not starting from scratch. There is still the original map (plus of course experience) to go on.
You also have to consider what they are mapping for... typically power with a hint towards economy. No one cares about emissions, other than the very very easy MOT test.
If I has my way I would use a RR and then Live Map LOL!
Alex
07-10-2007, 10:34 AM
#95
Originally Posted by Paul Ripley
Guys are the figures from a Engine dyno usually higher then a rolling road dyno?
That said, Dyno Dynamics have tested engines out of the car and then installed and claim to have the most accurate system for estimating flywheel figures.
Additionally, there is nothing to suggest that an Engine Dyno is actually accurate anyway. There are as many Engine Dyno's spitting out bullshit figures as there are Chassis Dyno's.
07-10-2007, 10:35 AM
#97
10K+ Poster!!
Originally Posted by Chip-3Door
Euan, whatever your car did on a conservative mapbased on estimates of what it would encounter in the real world based on knowledge gained about it from a rolling road, it could almost certainly have done slightly better if tweaked in the real world.
That's the point Karl is making, getting 95% of the way there on a set of rollers isnt a problem, its that last couple of degrees that you can only dial in with any confidence by doing so "live"
That's the point Karl is making, getting 95% of the way there on a set of rollers isnt a problem, its that last couple of degrees that you can only dial in with any confidence by doing so "live"
07-10-2007, 10:37 AM
#98
Originally Posted by Christian and Beccy
Originally Posted by AlexF
Originally Posted by Christian and Beccy
Perhaps next RR day we hold in the early spring?
07-10-2007, 10:41 AM
#100
I accept that sometimes there are discrepancies in the off-boost side of things that can be improved on the road, but even that is rare and in all honesty, if you have to go out in a car and spnd an hour or so driving around whilst subtle 'fussy' changes are made to the driveability map, then thats fine IMO.
On the DD Dyno, we can use a combination of Throttle control and the Dyno retarder to allow us to hit an exact cell-site on a map, hold it there (bang in the middle of the site, so that we know where we are in terms of interpolation too) and adjust it to get the fuelling spot on. If the customer is paying enough to cover it, we can also monitor actual measured power at that point (tractive effort) and adjust timing until we find what figure gives the most power. OK, so it isn't practical to write the high RPM on-boost parts of the map in this way, but the method I mentioned earlier is perfectly adequate for that.
On the DD Dyno, we can use a combination of Throttle control and the Dyno retarder to allow us to hit an exact cell-site on a map, hold it there (bang in the middle of the site, so that we know where we are in terms of interpolation too) and adjust it to get the fuelling spot on. If the customer is paying enough to cover it, we can also monitor actual measured power at that point (tractive effort) and adjust timing until we find what figure gives the most power. OK, so it isn't practical to write the high RPM on-boost parts of the map in this way, but the method I mentioned earlier is perfectly adequate for that.
07-10-2007, 10:46 AM
#103
Originally Posted by Charlie Chalk
Originally Posted by Christian and Beccy
Originally Posted by AlexF
Originally Posted by Christian and Beccy
Perhaps next RR day we hold in the early spring?
07-10-2007, 10:50 AM
#105
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Originally Posted by Charlie Chalk
Originally Posted by boXXer
Originally Posted by Charlie Chalk
Originally Posted by boXXer
i'll pop down.
You done the Mk1
07-10-2007, 11:23 AM
#108
PassionFord Post Troll
Originally Posted by Chris@torque of the devil
some people where obviously upset at the figures they recieved on our dyno but I believe them to be as accurate as possible without removing the engine from the car and bolting it on an engine dyno, and we have a very recent certificate of calibration on the wall for all to see.
chris.
chris.
07-10-2007, 11:25 AM
#110
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Originally Posted by AlexF
C&B...
you can't measure power..... on a RR!
you can't measure power..... on a RR!
07-10-2007, 11:27 AM
#111
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Originally Posted by dingy
Originally Posted by Chris@torque of the devil
some people where obviously upset at the figures they recieved on our dyno but I believe them to be as accurate as possible without removing the engine from the car and bolting it on an engine dyno, and we have a very recent certificate of calibration on the wall for all to see.
chris.
chris.
07-10-2007, 11:29 AM
#112
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Originally Posted by AndyRST
Originally Posted by AlexF
C&B...
you can't measure power..... on a RR!
you can't measure power..... on a RR!
Alex is correct, even though he's nit picking!
07-10-2007, 11:35 AM
#113
PassionFord Post Whore!!
funny that most of the cars that lost power probably had 3 letters on the back of there cars
so the cars that didnt magically lose power on the rollers yesterday would yous expect to make lots more power with a better fan??
so the cars that didnt magically lose power on the rollers yesterday would yous expect to make lots more power with a better fan??
07-10-2007, 11:36 AM
#114
PassionFord Post Troll
Comparing Rolling roads is crazy...
Examples...
320 @ wheels at AVA - t34 slow LOL 405 on dyno and 380 @ fly in car
435 @ wheels at nobles and 561 @ fly T4 @ 31psi.....(boost from there dataloggin)
Now at TOTD it made 380@wheels and 450 @ fly but failed to hold boost and only ran 27psi...
Took radders out on road and checked boost - same as when it ran at nobles..
My runs @ totd had far to many variables and to many changes from 400 to 430 to 410 to 440 to 450.....Car remains the same just how the operator decided to run the car up... so am taking the figure with a pinch of salt cause the boost is down etc...also my graph shows it was run in 3rd and it was run up in 4th - gary @ apt mentioned this could be a possible 10-15-20bhp difference in the overall power...
Going on that and the lack of the 4 to 5 psi could explain the loss in power.
4x4 cars seem to have better readings than 2wd's also having looked at lloyds figure - made 50bhp more than mine at a part run with a very simular engine and i think less boost...
Also why did billiecabs make less power over night....and claimed to be hiting the boost limit....nothing had changed on the car...
Euan, just for the record i don't think your car would make 500bhp at the fly here going on what mine made at the wheels at AVA....very interesting though and am coming up to AVA early next year to have a power run
07-10-2007, 11:37 AM
#115
PassionFord Post Troll
Originally Posted by Daviet
funny that most of the cars that lost power probably had 3 letters on the back of there cars
so the cars that didnt magically lose power on the rollers yesterday would yous expect to make lots more power with a better fan??
so the cars that didnt magically lose power on the rollers yesterday would yous expect to make lots more power with a better fan??
Alexf?
Billie Cab ?