MSD's ALS feature in Fast Ford
31-07-2007, 12:39 PM
#1
MSD's ALS feature in Fast Ford
Just read this, and it would seem Stu has missed a crucial description out of describing lag, which I'm very surprised at 
.
The first paragraph which describes "lag" should be describing "turbo spool-up" or "threshold". ALS in no way, shape or form improves the "spool up" (turbo threshold). So if you have a turbo that makes peak boost at 4000rpm, then ALS will not make that peak boost come in any earlier, as ALS switches off as soon as the throttle is pressed. So if you are under the 4000rpm spool up point and mash the throttle to the floor with the ALS engaged, it will still not make peak boost until 4000rpm (which is contrary to what Stu says in his article
).
Stu has forgotten to mention that lag is the time the turbo takes to re-spool up once you are IN the turbo's boost threshold, and this is where and what ALS has been designed for - as in when you come off the throttle in between gear changes and then reapply it (as long as you don't drop out of the boost threshold), the ALS keeps the turbine spinning so that when you reapply the throttle, the response is instant, as the ALS has done it's job of keeping the turbo spinning.
However, if you drop out of the boost threshold and try to get the turbo to come back into it, the ALS will NOT offer any improvement in this, as the energy that ALS produces is not sufficient to keep the turbo spinning at these kind of speeds. It can only maintain the momentum for a period of a couple of seconds (gear-change time), after that the turbo slows down even with the ALS engaged.
Obviously Stu's article may convince some people that ALS will offer improved spool up time and they can now fit huge turbos and make them spin up from standstill at the press of a button.
Obviously the launch control can do this, but NOT ALS
.
Discuss.
.The first paragraph which describes "lag" should be describing "turbo spool-up" or "threshold". ALS in no way, shape or form improves the "spool up" (turbo threshold). So if you have a turbo that makes peak boost at 4000rpm, then ALS will not make that peak boost come in any earlier, as ALS switches off as soon as the throttle is pressed. So if you are under the 4000rpm spool up point and mash the throttle to the floor with the ALS engaged, it will still not make peak boost until 4000rpm (which is contrary to what Stu says in his article
).Stu has forgotten to mention that lag is the time the turbo takes to re-spool up once you are IN the turbo's boost threshold, and this is where and what ALS has been designed for - as in when you come off the throttle in between gear changes and then reapply it (as long as you don't drop out of the boost threshold), the ALS keeps the turbine spinning so that when you reapply the throttle, the response is instant, as the ALS has done it's job of keeping the turbo spinning.
However, if you drop out of the boost threshold and try to get the turbo to come back into it, the ALS will NOT offer any improvement in this, as the energy that ALS produces is not sufficient to keep the turbo spinning at these kind of speeds. It can only maintain the momentum for a period of a couple of seconds (gear-change time), after that the turbo slows down even with the ALS engaged.
Obviously Stu's article may convince some people that ALS will offer improved spool up time and they can now fit huge turbos and make them spin up from standstill at the press of a button.
Obviously the launch control can do this, but NOT ALS
.Discuss
.
31-07-2007, 12:45 PM
#2
DEYTUKURJERBS
IMO you downplay the positive effects of ALS from your experience with a single Moutnune style ALS valve running a big ass gay snail of a T4.
Twin ALS bypassas or a smaller turbo (ie a T34) and the effect is much greater.
How you describe it often enough makes it sound shit and nowehere near as effective as my ALS was on a smaller turbo, and im not totally convinced (going from memory about the "below the boost threshold" bit either, im sure i remember it otherwise...
Twin ALS bypassas or a smaller turbo (ie a T34) and the effect is much greater.
How you describe it often enough makes it sound shit and nowehere near as effective as my ALS was on a smaller turbo, and im not totally convinced (going from memory about the "below the boost threshold" bit either, im sure i remember it otherwise...
31-07-2007, 12:53 PM
#4
Stav,
But the thing is, it turns off as soon as you press the throttle, so unless there is sufficient energy to have generated huge amounts of boost in the first place (which would be EXTREMELY harsh amount of energy on a big turbo to get it spinning at sufficient speed to generate that amount of positive boost), then the turbo would have lost it's inertia by the time you reached it's boost threshold.
I would imagine that it works to greater effect on smaller turbos, as the rpm point is lower, so if enough inertia could be generated, then you would possibly reach the boost threshold before the inertia died off?
But the thing is, it turns off as soon as you press the throttle, so unless there is sufficient energy to have generated huge amounts of boost in the first place (which would be EXTREMELY harsh amount of energy on a big turbo to get it spinning at sufficient speed to generate that amount of positive boost), then the turbo would have lost it's inertia by the time you reached it's boost threshold.
I would imagine that it works to greater effect on smaller turbos, as the rpm point is lower, so if enough inertia could be generated, then you would possibly reach the boost threshold before the inertia died off?
31-07-2007, 01:02 PM
#5
DEYTUKURJERBS
Theory and Reality are two different things.
If the ALS effect died the moment you hit the throttle there would always be a strange transition as you hit the gas even in the threashold.
If mapped agressive enough and with enough air bypass it does lower the boost threshold when on, that im confident enough in saying from personal experience.
If not as effective setup or with a bigger turbo of course the effect would be lessened to almost none, and its main purpose isnt that, but still.
What boost does your T4 sit at when off throttle for prolonged (well, a few secs at least) periods?
If the ALS effect died the moment you hit the throttle there would always be a strange transition as you hit the gas even in the threashold.
If mapped agressive enough and with enough air bypass it does lower the boost threshold when on, that im confident enough in saying from personal experience.
If not as effective setup or with a bigger turbo of course the effect would be lessened to almost none, and its main purpose isnt that, but still.
What boost does your T4 sit at when off throttle for prolonged (well, a few secs at least) periods?
31-07-2007, 01:18 PM
#6
It sits at Zero at idle, even with the Mountune roller-barrel set up.
It definitely switches off on the Mountune strategy when the throttle is applied and comes on again as soon as the throttle is disengaged.
Obviously my set-up has insuffiecient energy being imparted to the turbine wheel to give it positive boost, so the boost threshold is totally unaffected.
However, given how hot the EGTs get in hard use with my current set-up (1100°+C), I would hate to think how hot it would get if enough air and fuel was poked in to give positive boost, but as I said, I still think that on a big turbo, the positive pressure would die off befor the boost threshold was reached?
It definitely switches off on the Mountune strategy when the throttle is applied and comes on again as soon as the throttle is disengaged.
Obviously my set-up has insuffiecient energy being imparted to the turbine wheel to give it positive boost, so the boost threshold is totally unaffected.
However, given how hot the EGTs get in hard use with my current set-up (1100°+C), I would hate to think how hot it would get if enough air and fuel was poked in to give positive boost, but as I said, I still think that on a big turbo, the positive pressure would die off befor the boost threshold was reached?
31-07-2007, 01:42 PM
#7
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Well I thought it was well written and easy to understand for those who
are not too technically minded which I guess is 90% of the readers.
Every set up is different for the engine spec/turbo spec and of course the
preferences of the driver too.
I guess most will just want the sound effects LOL
are not too technically minded which I guess is 90% of the readers.
Every set up is different for the engine spec/turbo spec and of course the
preferences of the driver too.
I guess most will just want the sound effects LOL
Trending Topics
31-07-2007, 01:50 PM
#8
DEYTUKURJERBS
I dont mean at idle (ie 1000rpm or whatever) mike, i meant if you let off at full boost and high rpm, what happens to the boost level at overrun on your setup?
Positive pressure at idle speed isnt good for much other than amazing onlookers anyhow really, lol.
Positive pressure at idle speed isnt good for much other than amazing onlookers anyhow really, lol.
31-07-2007, 02:01 PM
#9
Testing the future
as i said, i don't have any experience of it but from a theory point of view it is putting more energy into the exhaust than without it so it should have some benefit to the spool up response out of the boost threshhold as well as in it
i know you're just playing around, but that sort of argumentative post is not really going to help is it? 
Originally Posted by CossieRich
Could be an interesting topic this one providing Simon doesnt start dribbling about his username. Oh hang on 
31-07-2007, 02:07 PM
#11
Originally Posted by Stavros
I dont mean at idle (ie 1000rpm or whatever) mike, i meant if you let off at full boost and high rpm, what happens to the boost level at overrun on your setup?
Positive pressure at idle speed isnt good for much other than amazing onlookers anyhow really, lol.
Positive pressure at idle speed isnt good for much other than amazing onlookers anyhow really, lol.
). With it turned off and still in the threshold, the boost build up is typically big turbo slow.
31-07-2007, 02:15 PM
#13
Originally Posted by T S M
Mike you are being pedantic als offers positive boost at rpm levels far lower that non als
als is rpm specific in the map
als is rpm specific in the map
.I realise it offers positive boost at lower levels you thick twat, however, I'm trying to get my head around the fact that it switches off at a certain throttle angle, so unless the turbo has a specific amount of inertia, the turbo slows down to the point where it does not affect the boost threshold on a big turbo. I am therefore trying to establish how much inertia would be required to keep the turbo spinning fast enough so that by the time the boost threshold had been reached, the exhaust gas speed takes over and keeps the turbine speed up.
I can't see how it can
.
31-07-2007, 02:15 PM
#14
DEYTUKURJERBS
Thats not really what I was asking Mike was it.
Basically mine, for example, would still see anything from 29 to 23 psi on the over run (full boost was 30psi), and wheras I cant exactly remember what it went to at low rpm, im certain what your saying is not the case by a long shot on a good setup, and seems TonyTurbosystems agrees...
Your not trying to learn owt IMO, you were, as you were on an earlier thread, giving it loads saying ALS doesnt change the boost threshold at all, properly categorically stating it, down the point where you taking the piss outa others for saying it did.
And in my experience with a setup that works properly, unlike your wowfully under airflowed one it does.
Basically mine, for example, would still see anything from 29 to 23 psi on the over run (full boost was 30psi), and wheras I cant exactly remember what it went to at low rpm, im certain what your saying is not the case by a long shot on a good setup, and seems TonyTurbosystems agrees...
Your not trying to learn owt IMO, you were, as you were on an earlier thread, giving it loads saying ALS doesnt change the boost threshold at all, properly categorically stating it, down the point where you taking the piss outa others for saying it did.
And in my experience with a setup that works properly, unlike your wowfully under airflowed one
it does.
31-07-2007, 02:21 PM
#15
Originally Posted by Stavros
Thats not really what I was asking Mike was it.
Basically mine, for example, would still see anything from 29 to 23 psi on the over run (full boost was 30psi), and wheras I cant exactly remember what it went to at low rpm, im certain what your saying is not the case by a long shot on a good setup, and seems TonyTurbosystems agrees...
Basically mine, for example, would still see anything from 29 to 23 psi on the over run (full boost was 30psi), and wheras I cant exactly remember what it went to at low rpm, im certain what your saying is not the case by a long shot on a good setup, and seems TonyTurbosystems agrees...
31-07-2007, 02:43 PM
#19
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LOL, I think this has the potential for a good discussion actually
I am sorry my comment started a war but the rest of message was
on topic and perfectly relevant.
I think Mike shoudl clean this topic up and infact I will remove my original comment. TO LATE HE DID
Until then.....
Maddettes are like busses...
1) None for ages, the they all come at once.
or
2) too many of them with empty space on board
Plus, I still want to know if Dave and Helen swap turns on on computer
or do they have seperate rooms.
I am sorry my comment started a war but the rest of message was
on topic and perfectly relevant.
I think Mike shoudl clean this topic up and infact I will remove my original comment. TO LATE HE DID
Until then.....
Maddettes are like busses...
1) None for ages, the they all come at once.
or
2) too many of them with empty space on board
Plus, I still want to know if Dave and Helen swap turns on on computer
or do they have seperate rooms.
31-07-2007, 02:44 PM
#21
Originally Posted by Stavros
Thats not really what I was asking Mike was it.
Basically mine, for example, would still see anything from 29 to 23 psi on the over run (full boost was 30psi), and wheras I cant exactly remember what it went to at low rpm, im certain what your saying is not the case by a long shot on a good setup, and seems TonyTurbosystems agrees...
Your not trying to learn owt IMO, you were, as you were on an earlier thread, giving it loads saying ALS doesnt change the boost threshold at all, properly categorically stating it, down the point where you taking the piss outa others for saying it did.
And in my experience with a setup that works properly, unlike your wowfully under airflowed one it does.
Basically mine, for example, would still see anything from 29 to 23 psi on the over run (full boost was 30psi), and wheras I cant exactly remember what it went to at low rpm, im certain what your saying is not the case by a long shot on a good setup, and seems TonyTurbosystems agrees...
Your not trying to learn owt IMO, you were, as you were on an earlier thread, giving it loads saying ALS doesnt change the boost threshold at all, properly categorically stating it, down the point where you taking the piss outa others for saying it did.
And in my experience with a setup that works properly, unlike your wowfully under airflowed one
it does.I posted my understanding of it, which contradicts with Stu's and just wanted to clarify, hense the discussion
. However, I can see a way round it as someone (thanks Lynne
) has kindly sent me the link to the Autronic's site. But shit, I wouldn't like that version on my car . The Autonic suggests upping the idle from anything between 2500 to 4000 with the ALS activated . Can you imagine approaching a corner and wanting the car to slow down, but not being able to as the car won't go below 4000rpm and is generating shit loads of boost when you want to be stopping, not accelerating .
31-07-2007, 02:56 PM
#23
Mike, 1 quick point.
In 1st gear my T34 makes good boost at about 4K
In 5th gear my T34 makes good boost at under 3K
The reason? It has longer to spool on the way up through 5th, so the real threshold is at 3K, but from 1st gear experience only I would say it spooled at 4K
During gear changes, if you keep the turbo spinning, then at any point over 3K in the next gear, it will carry on making boost, where as if you allowed it to stop spinning as hard (by not having ALS) you would find the secondgear threshold lower (especially during a slow change, which is common on a cossie gearbox)
So while I agree with 99% of what you are saying, I think you will find Stu has had to basically include elements of that relatively complicated concept, whilst still make it readable.
So yes he is probably technically *slightly* incorrect in his wording, but the reality is that it gets the information across to people who dont understand the terms well enough to understand the real explanation in full.
In 1st gear my T34 makes good boost at about 4K
In 5th gear my T34 makes good boost at under 3K
The reason? It has longer to spool on the way up through 5th, so the real threshold is at 3K, but from 1st gear experience only I would say it spooled at 4K
During gear changes, if you keep the turbo spinning, then at any point over 3K in the next gear, it will carry on making boost, where as if you allowed it to stop spinning as hard (by not having ALS) you would find the secondgear threshold lower (especially during a slow change, which is common on a cossie gearbox)
So while I agree with 99% of what you are saying, I think you will find Stu has had to basically include elements of that relatively complicated concept, whilst still make it readable.
So yes he is probably technically *slightly* incorrect in his wording, but the reality is that it gets the information across to people who dont understand the terms well enough to understand the real explanation in full.
31-07-2007, 03:02 PM
#24
Guest
Posts: n/a
Originally Posted by 68332
LOL, I think this has the potential for a good discussion actually
I am sorry my comment started a war but the rest of message was
on topic and perfectly relevant.
I think Mike shoudl clean this topic up and infact I will remove my original comment. TO LATE HE DID
Until then.....
Maddettes are like busses...
1) None for ages, the they all come at once.
or
2) too many of them with empty space on board
Plus, I still want to know if Dave and Helen swap turns on on computer
or do they have seperate rooms.
I am sorry my comment started a war but the rest of message was
on topic and perfectly relevant.
I think Mike shoudl clean this topic up and infact I will remove my original comment. TO LATE HE DID
Until then.....
Maddettes are like busses...
1) None for ages, the they all come at once.
or
2) too many of them with empty space on board
Plus, I still want to know if Dave and Helen swap turns on on computer
or do they have seperate rooms.
Simon
Im at home and have been since hospital
So Helen is at work, so hope you can understand thats there is more than 1 computer
Mine at home is 1
And Helen work computer is 2
Also have a spare PC at home make 3
And Helen has her own Labtop make 4
It not that hard to work out
Did think my home life was really that intresting to you
31-07-2007, 03:11 PM
#27
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Originally Posted by Chip-3Door
So while I agree with 99% of what you are saying, I think you will find Stu has had to basically include elements of that relatively complicated concept, whilst still make it readable.
So yes he is probably technically *slightly* incorrect in his wording, but the reality is that it gets the information across to people who dont understand the terms well enough to understand the real explanation in full.
So yes he is probably technically *slightly* incorrect in his wording, but the reality is that it gets the information across to people who dont understand the terms well enough to understand the real explanation in full.
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[/invisible]
31-07-2007, 03:13 PM
#28
Testing the future
as this post turned to shit as usual 
i'm going to have some banter as well 
does she sit at home with it on her lab, or possibly her lap?
where does your lap go when you stand up?
what is an occassional table the rest of the time?
i'm going to have some banter as well
Originally Posted by MAD YUM
And Helen has her own Labtop make 4
where does your lap go when you stand up?
what is an occassional table the rest of the time?
31-07-2007, 03:13 PM
#29
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Originally Posted by Mike Rainbird
so unless the turbo has a specific amount of inertia, the turbo slows down to the point where it does not affect the boost threshold on a big turbo. I am therefore trying to establish how much inertia would be required to keep the turbo spinning fast enough so that by the time the boost threshold had been reached, the exhaust gas speed takes over and keeps the turbine speed up.
31-07-2007, 03:15 PM
#30
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Originally Posted by foreigneRS
as this post turned to shit as usual i'm going to have some banter as well
does she sit at home with it on her lab, or possibly her lap?
where does your lap go when you stand up?
what is an occassional table the rest of the time?
i'm going to have some banter as well
Originally Posted by MAD YUM
And Helen has her own Labtop make 4
where does your lap go when you stand up?
what is an occassional table the rest of the time?
My mistake, its just that simon wanted to know
31-07-2007, 03:21 PM
#33
Originally Posted by Mike Rainbird
Originally Posted by Stavros
Thats not really what I was asking Mike was it.
Basically mine, for example, would still see anything from 29 to 23 psi on the over run (full boost was 30psi), and wheras I cant exactly remember what it went to at low rpm, im certain what your saying is not the case by a long shot on a good setup, and seems TonyTurbosystems agrees...
Your not trying to learn owt IMO, you were, as you were on an earlier thread, giving it loads saying ALS doesnt change the boost threshold at all, properly categorically stating it, down the point where you taking the piss outa others for saying it did.
And in my experience with a setup that works properly, unlike your wowfully under airflowed one it does.
Basically mine, for example, would still see anything from 29 to 23 psi on the over run (full boost was 30psi), and wheras I cant exactly remember what it went to at low rpm, im certain what your saying is not the case by a long shot on a good setup, and seems TonyTurbosystems agrees...
Your not trying to learn owt IMO, you were, as you were on an earlier thread, giving it loads saying ALS doesnt change the boost threshold at all, properly categorically stating it, down the point where you taking the piss outa others for saying it did.
And in my experience with a setup that works properly, unlike your wowfully under airflowed one
it does.I posted my understanding of it, which contradicts with Stu's and just wanted to clarify, hense the discussion
. However, I can see a way round it as someone (thanks Lynne
) has kindly sent me the link to the Autronic's site. But shit, I wouldn't like that version on my car . The Autonic suggests upping the idle from anything between 2500 to 4000 with the ALS activated . Can you imagine approaching a corner and wanting the car to slow down, but not being able to as the car won't go below 4000rpm and is generating shit loads of boost when you want to be stopping, not accelerating . ok, for the benifit of those who don't understand wtf you are on about (me for example) wtf are you on about?
after reading stu's article it seems that if you make the timing go forwards so that the feul is still igniting after tdc then this reslutant explosion is going to be carrying on AFTER the piston is coming up for it's exhaust stroke, thus forcing the combusted charge out of the exhaust valves and, thus, giving the turbo a bit of a kick
when you put your foot on the throttle, the advance/retard settings go back to the throttle contorled openings/settings as per normal running at what ever boost levels/temps/etc they are mapped for
so this would be great for launching as you already have plent of boost boosting through your engine so you don't bog down as much off the line
als, as far as i was aware (being influenced by the fast and the furious max power types) was keeping the turbo spinning by squirting stuff into it (fuel/nos or the like) when you were changing gears to keep the full boost available after you've just dumped it out of the dump valve
please note, simple "yes" or "no" answers won't do
i want to know how this stuff works but don't want to go on a 2 week course to be able to figure out what you are all waffeling on about when you come to boost threasholds and other too technically gibberish
31-07-2007, 03:21 PM
#34
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Originally Posted by Chip-3Door
Originally Posted by FASTdan
Whilst we're being pedantic
ALS has no effect on your turbo's inertia whatsoever lol.
sorry im being a geek
31-07-2007, 03:23 PM
#35
Originally Posted by FASTdan
Originally Posted by Chip-3Door
Originally Posted by FASTdan
Whilst we're being pedantic
ALS has no effect on your turbo's inertia whatsoever lol.
sorry im being a geek
31-07-2007, 03:31 PM
#37
Originally Posted by dojj
Originally Posted by Mike Rainbird
Originally Posted by Stavros
Thats not really what I was asking Mike was it.
Basically mine, for example, would still see anything from 29 to 23 psi on the over run (full boost was 30psi), and wheras I cant exactly remember what it went to at low rpm, im certain what your saying is not the case by a long shot on a good setup, and seems TonyTurbosystems agrees...
Your not trying to learn owt IMO, you were, as you were on an earlier thread, giving it loads saying ALS doesnt change the boost threshold at all, properly categorically stating it, down the point where you taking the piss outa others for saying it did.
And in my experience with a setup that works properly, unlike your wowfully under airflowed one it does.
Basically mine, for example, would still see anything from 29 to 23 psi on the over run (full boost was 30psi), and wheras I cant exactly remember what it went to at low rpm, im certain what your saying is not the case by a long shot on a good setup, and seems TonyTurbosystems agrees...
Your not trying to learn owt IMO, you were, as you were on an earlier thread, giving it loads saying ALS doesnt change the boost threshold at all, properly categorically stating it, down the point where you taking the piss outa others for saying it did.
And in my experience with a setup that works properly, unlike your wowfully under airflowed one
it does.I posted my understanding of it, which contradicts with Stu's and just wanted to clarify, hense the discussion
. However, I can see a way round it as someone (thanks Lynne
) has kindly sent me the link to the Autronic's site. But shit, I wouldn't like that version on my car . The Autonic suggests upping the idle from anything between 2500 to 4000 with the ALS activated . Can you imagine approaching a corner and wanting the car to slow down, but not being able to as the car won't go below 4000rpm and is generating shit loads of boost when you want to be stopping, not accelerating . ok, for the benifit of those who don't understand wtf you are on about (me for example) wtf are you on about?
after reading stu's article it seems that if you make the timing go forwards so that the feul is still igniting after tdc then this reslutant explosion is going to be carrying on AFTER the piston is coming up for it's exhaust stroke, thus forcing the combusted charge out of the exhaust valves and, thus, giving the turbo a bit of a kick
when you put your foot on the throttle, the advance/retard settings go back to the throttle contorled openings/settings as per normal running at what ever boost levels/temps/etc they are mapped for
, so it would slow back down to the speed matched by the exhaust gases then coming out of the engine. If these were less than the amount that was required to hold the boost at a certain figure (as in the particular boost threshold), then the boost would drop back down, until the exhaust gases reached the required speed to bring the turbo back on boost. This is why it is not a magical cure for bringing the turbine into operation any earlier when you are wanting to pull away.
31-07-2007, 03:45 PM
#38
Surprised you made this topic to have a dig at me Mike, even going to the trouble of putting my company name in the title!!
I am so surprised i am not even going to bother answering other than to say it sounds like you have no experience of decently programmed ALS or you missunderstood my text.
I am so surprised i am not even going to bother answering other than to say it sounds like you have no experience of decently programmed ALS or you missunderstood my text.
31-07-2007, 03:50 PM
#39
Originally Posted by Stu @ M Developments
Surprised you made this topic to have a dig at me Mike, even going to the trouble of putting my company name in the title!!
31-07-2007, 04:00 PM
#40
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surely if the als is stuffing a full load of boost into the engine without the throttle open, as soon as you open the throttle and that boost shoots into the engine its not going to matter about spool up time as the turbo is already spinning to generate boost and the engine has just had a 30psi airbomb down its neck...i'd imagine it'd be like 1ms to carry on producing boost....I would have thought that the mappers can overcome any effect that your saying mike by not switching it off like on 1 degree of throttle but allowing a bit more to 'overlap' and instantly spool up the turbo.
Just my understanding of it anyhow.
Dan
Just my understanding of it anyhow.
Dan