YB vs ZT THE ARGUMENT
07-05-2007, 10:56 AM
#41
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well if it's bang for buck he wants then that sounds a great idea
but i reckon he wants to stick with a 4 pot that's gonna cost shed loads more to tune
07-05-2007, 12:11 PM
#42
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Righty - i'll throw my 2p worth in...
The standard Zetec block is ok for 500bhp, 550bhp at a push - much more than this and you are on borrowed time.
Crank is 'just' ok for the above figures too assuming stress raisers are polished out, the crank is checked to ensure its completely straight etc. Surface treatments may help.
The LATE CGI blocks are good, but ideally in my opinion the water galleries can benefit from siamese drilling to dissipate the heat better.
Zetec oil pump can collapse the sintered gearing at 7400rpm, billet geared versions are available from the states however for a few hundred quid.
The ST170 head can be made to fit the zetec blocks but they aren't a straight swap and a lot of off the shelf rod and piston combos for zetec are then unusable as the 8cc smaller combustion chamber in the ST head raises the compression ratio beyond usable territory.
Ok, if you approached me for a 650bhp engine i would personally suggest a spec list of:
ST170 block, cryo treated to realign the grain structure with water galleries siamesed
Crower 2.3l stroker kit consisting of forged crank, rods and pistons with the pistons skimmed and valve cutouts to reduce compression
CFM Billet geared oil pump
Focus RS Water Pump
ST170 head gasket
ST170 head with billet grind cams, +1mm oversized valves and heavy port work
2.0 Zetec Verniers on adaptor top hat to remove VVT
Tubular exhaust manifold with GT4088 turbo
External wastegate
Custom Inlet manifold
The standard Zetec block is ok for 500bhp, 550bhp at a push - much more than this and you are on borrowed time.
Crank is 'just' ok for the above figures too assuming stress raisers are polished out, the crank is checked to ensure its completely straight etc. Surface treatments may help.
The LATE CGI blocks are good, but ideally in my opinion the water galleries can benefit from siamese drilling to dissipate the heat better.
Zetec oil pump can collapse the sintered gearing at 7400rpm, billet geared versions are available from the states however for a few hundred quid.
The ST170 head can be made to fit the zetec blocks but they aren't a straight swap and a lot of off the shelf rod and piston combos for zetec are then unusable as the 8cc smaller combustion chamber in the ST head raises the compression ratio beyond usable territory.
Ok, if you approached me for a 650bhp engine i would personally suggest a spec list of:
ST170 block, cryo treated to realign the grain structure with water galleries siamesed
Crower 2.3l stroker kit consisting of forged crank, rods and pistons with the pistons skimmed and valve cutouts to reduce compression
CFM Billet geared oil pump
Focus RS Water Pump
ST170 head gasket
ST170 head with billet grind cams, +1mm oversized valves and heavy port work
2.0 Zetec Verniers on adaptor top hat to remove VVT
Tubular exhaust manifold with GT4088 turbo
External wastegate
Custom Inlet manifold
07-05-2007, 12:35 PM
#43
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Originally Posted by Matt
wheres sunny and his forever being built engine when you need him
Engine will be done soon, should be interesting what it makes. 
07-05-2007, 12:47 PM
#44
Originally Posted by bud-weis
i agree...to me it sounds like you've made your mind up about using a zetec lump.
Personally i see no reason for it but hey it's your choice!
Consider though that the zetec engine is hardly 'new'...it's been around for years and years, yet i can't think of 1 engine producing a genuine and reliable 650bhp. that to me tells you that you are going to need to spend a lot of cash making sure yours is both strong enough and makes the power.
YB's have produced 650bhp for years now, and more recently they have even become more user friendly fitted in cars that could (if wanted) be used everyday...they don't break because of the power, but obviously they don't last all that long...but then show me another engine with that power that does.
you have also mentioned the EVO engines..why not just use one of them?? it's not a YB (which you seem dead against) and they can obviously be tuned to silly levels!
Personally i see no reason for it but hey it's your choice!
Consider though that the zetec engine is hardly 'new'...it's been around for years and years, yet i can't think of 1 engine producing a genuine and reliable 650bhp. that to me tells you that you are going to need to spend a lot of cash making sure yours is both strong enough and makes the power.
YB's have produced 650bhp for years now, and more recently they have even become more user friendly fitted in cars that could (if wanted) be used everyday...they don't break because of the power, but obviously they don't last all that long...but then show me another engine with that power that does.
you have also mentioned the EVO engines..why not just use one of them?? it's not a YB (which you seem dead against) and they can obviously be tuned to silly levels!
07-05-2007, 12:54 PM
#45
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Originally Posted by zippyobrien
every thing wasnt over enginered though was it,
zetec power figures are really starting to take off recenly,
surely, if your going to invest in a new set up a duratec engine would be more desirable, with the right hand side inlet (front on a fwd)
zetec power figures are really starting to take off recenly,
surely, if your going to invest in a new set up a duratec engine would be more desirable, with the right hand side inlet (front on a fwd)
!
Alex
07-05-2007, 12:55 PM
#46
Originally Posted by Big Will 85
Righty - i'll throw my 2p worth in...
The standard Zetec block is ok for 500bhp, 550bhp at a push - much more than this and you are on borrowed time.
Crank is 'just' ok for the above figures too assuming stress raisers are polished out, the crank is checked to ensure its completely straight etc. Surface treatments may help.
The LATE CGI blocks are good, but ideally in my opinion the water galleries can benefit from siamese drilling to dissipate the heat better.
Zetec oil pump can collapse the sintered gearing at 7400rpm, billet geared versions are available from the states however for a few hundred quid.
The ST170 head can be made to fit the zetec blocks but they aren't a straight swap and a lot of off the shelf rod and piston combos for zetec are then unusable as the 8cc smaller combustion chamber in the ST head raises the compression ratio beyond usable territory.
Ok, if you approached me for a 650bhp engine i would personally suggest a spec list of:
ST170 block, cryo treated to realign the grain structure with water galleries siamesed
Crower 2.3l stroker kit consisting of forged crank, rods and pistons with the pistons skimmed and valve cutouts to reduce compression
CFM Billet geared oil pump
Focus RS Water Pump
ST170 head gasket
ST170 head with billet grind cams, +1mm oversized valves and heavy port work
2.0 Zetec Verniers on adaptor top hat to remove VVT
Tubular exhaust manifold with GT4088 turbo
External wastegate
Custom Inlet manifold
The standard Zetec block is ok for 500bhp, 550bhp at a push - much more than this and you are on borrowed time.
Crank is 'just' ok for the above figures too assuming stress raisers are polished out, the crank is checked to ensure its completely straight etc. Surface treatments may help.
The LATE CGI blocks are good, but ideally in my opinion the water galleries can benefit from siamese drilling to dissipate the heat better.
Zetec oil pump can collapse the sintered gearing at 7400rpm, billet geared versions are available from the states however for a few hundred quid.
The ST170 head can be made to fit the zetec blocks but they aren't a straight swap and a lot of off the shelf rod and piston combos for zetec are then unusable as the 8cc smaller combustion chamber in the ST head raises the compression ratio beyond usable territory.
Ok, if you approached me for a 650bhp engine i would personally suggest a spec list of:
ST170 block, cryo treated to realign the grain structure with water galleries siamesed
Crower 2.3l stroker kit consisting of forged crank, rods and pistons with the pistons skimmed and valve cutouts to reduce compression
CFM Billet geared oil pump
Focus RS Water Pump
ST170 head gasket
ST170 head with billet grind cams, +1mm oversized valves and heavy port work
2.0 Zetec Verniers on adaptor top hat to remove VVT
Tubular exhaust manifold with GT4088 turbo
External wastegate
Custom Inlet manifold
thats a nice lot of info right there
07-05-2007, 06:27 PM
#49
DEYTUKURJERBS
Originally Posted by MD Cos
Originally Posted by SapphyMike
Why do you want 650bhp?
but if you havent, fuck that from a small engine, fun doesnt increase with money spent, not by a long shot.
expensive, unresponsive, unreliable, will need bloody expensive transmission, tyres, suspension, etc to make it even remotley handle the power, and even then it will be just a straight line car.
07-05-2007, 06:44 PM
#50
PassionFord Post Whore!!
Originally Posted by Stavros
Originally Posted by MD Cos
Originally Posted by SapphyMike
Why do you want 650bhp?
but if you havent, fuck that from a small engine, fun doesnt increase with money spent, not by a long shot.
expensive, unresponsive, unreliable, will need bloody expensive transmission, tyres, suspension, etc to make it even remotley handle the power, and even then it will be just a straight line car.
Absolutly agree.
Although Karls car isn't quite as bad...but it is generally pretty useless- even he says that.
I've driven it and it doesn't come on boost for ages, can only pull away 1 of 2 ways- launch hard OR wait for a gap you could fill with a battle ship.
07-05-2007, 07:35 PM
#51
Advanced PassionFord User
You can get 600bhp out of most 2.0 16V engines if you build it right to start with with a blank cheque book.
I assume this post is looking at engine dimensions such as rod length, bore and stroke, valve size etc etc.
Hand on heart I would say the Cosworth YB engine is a better base engine to start with even though I'm a Zetec man through and through.
The limits of the zetec that cannot be re-engineered are bore size and weak main cap girdles in the block. I believe some of the Rallycross guys have managed 660bhp on the black top zetecs.
If going to extremes you need a CGI block and billet maincaps like I have done for my new engine.
Main reasons for YB are availability of parts, bore size, stroke etc.
However if I was to do it all again I would use the Ford Galaxy 2.3 engine for a number of good reasons.
84mm stroke, 90mm bore
Long rod gives excellent rod ratio
Block is a heavy strong lump
30mm buckets
30mm exhaust valves
33.5mm inlet valves
This would be a perfect engine to turbo
I assume this post is looking at engine dimensions such as rod length, bore and stroke, valve size etc etc.
Hand on heart I would say the Cosworth YB engine is a better base engine to start with even though I'm a Zetec man through and through.
The limits of the zetec that cannot be re-engineered are bore size and weak main cap girdles in the block. I believe some of the Rallycross guys have managed 660bhp on the black top zetecs.
If going to extremes you need a CGI block and billet maincaps like I have done for my new engine.
Main reasons for YB are availability of parts, bore size, stroke etc.
However if I was to do it all again I would use the Ford Galaxy 2.3 engine for a number of good reasons.
84mm stroke, 90mm bore
Long rod gives excellent rod ratio
Block is a heavy strong lump
30mm buckets
30mm exhaust valves
33.5mm inlet valves
This would be a perfect engine to turbo
07-05-2007, 08:14 PM
#52
PassionFord Post Troll
Originally Posted by Shings
Originally Posted by Garage19
I have had some expience with zetec engines and have done a fair bit of research into big power ones.
One thing i have never heard of is blocks splitting. Where as a 205 block tends to go at the 400bhp mark i know of plenty of zetecs running past this with no block problems. My theory on this is that the zetec is more under square than the YB. It has a smaller bore (85mm vs 91mm) and i think this gives it a advantage at higher cylinder pressures, just as a smaller bore piece of pipe can carry more pressure than a larger bore piece of pipe.
Just one thing of many to consider.
One thing i have never heard of is blocks splitting. Where as a 205 block tends to go at the 400bhp mark i know of plenty of zetecs running past this with no block problems. My theory on this is that the zetec is more under square than the YB. It has a smaller bore (85mm vs 91mm) and i think this gives it a advantage at higher cylinder pressures, just as a smaller bore piece of pipe can carry more pressure than a larger bore piece of pipe.
Just one thing of many to consider.
My last cossie had 430 ish bhp- no cracked block.
Nutters runs around the 500 mark- std 2wd 205 block. No cracked block.
Anyway.....who's going to port and flow test your head???
I can ony recommend CNC heads for zetec head work. Again from experience. I think Austen would agree.
07-05-2007, 08:16 PM
#53
PassionFord Post Troll
Originally Posted by AustenW
You can get 600bhp out of most 2.0 16V engines if you build it right to start with with a blank cheque book.
I assume this post is looking at engine dimensions such as rod length, bore and stroke, valve size etc etc.
Hand on heart I would say the Cosworth YB engine is a better base engine to start with even though I'm a Zetec man through and through.
The limits of the zetec that cannot be re-engineered are bore size and weak main cap girdles in the block. I believe some of the Rallycross guys have managed 660bhp on the black top zetecs.
If going to extremes you need a CGI block and billet maincaps like I have done for my new engine.
Main reasons for YB are availability of parts, bore size, stroke etc.
However if I was to do it all again I would use the Ford Galaxy 2.3 engine for a number of good reasons.
84mm stroke, 90mm bore
Long rod gives excellent rod ratio
Block is a heavy strong lump
30mm buckets
30mm exhaust valves
33.5mm inlet valves
This would be a perfect engine to turbo
I assume this post is looking at engine dimensions such as rod length, bore and stroke, valve size etc etc.
Hand on heart I would say the Cosworth YB engine is a better base engine to start with even though I'm a Zetec man through and through.
The limits of the zetec that cannot be re-engineered are bore size and weak main cap girdles in the block. I believe some of the Rallycross guys have managed 660bhp on the black top zetecs.
If going to extremes you need a CGI block and billet maincaps like I have done for my new engine.
Main reasons for YB are availability of parts, bore size, stroke etc.
However if I was to do it all again I would use the Ford Galaxy 2.3 engine for a number of good reasons.
84mm stroke, 90mm bore
Long rod gives excellent rod ratio
Block is a heavy strong lump
30mm buckets
30mm exhaust valves
33.5mm inlet valves
This would be a perfect engine to turbo
What do they weigh in at? Can't be more than a YB????
07-05-2007, 09:07 PM
#54
Advanced PassionFord User
I can imagine it would be a heavy lump but strong, and the engine dimensions would be a great base for a 2.4 motor that would piss 600 bhp
The rods in them are very long
The duratec route is the way forward for good engine dimensions and lightness but the alloy blocks are unproven at high power levels.
There are reports of 320bhp on a nasp duratec motor which is very impressive
Ian Howell has spent alot of money on his block to get it strong but it is still unproven. Lets see how it goes after a few years of abuse
The alloy 5 cyl Volvo motors are nice but anything above 500bhp is on borrowed time due to block failure as they are alloy blocked.
Iron block is the safest bet IMO if going high power
The rods in them are very long
The duratec route is the way forward for good engine dimensions and lightness but the alloy blocks are unproven at high power levels.
There are reports of 320bhp on a nasp duratec motor which is very impressive
Ian Howell has spent alot of money on his block to get it strong but it is still unproven. Lets see how it goes after a few years of abuse
The alloy 5 cyl Volvo motors are nice but anything above 500bhp is on borrowed time due to block failure as they are alloy blocked.
Iron block is the safest bet IMO if going high power
07-05-2007, 09:54 PM
#55
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well, if 650bhp is just for talk down the pub, then its pointless!
we could've gone for more power with an engine we had built, but then the threshold point would've been too high to make the car drivable. as it it, its manageable!
we could've gone for more power with an engine we had built, but then the threshold point would've been too high to make the car drivable. as it it, its manageable!
07-05-2007, 10:09 PM
#57
Given the choice a LS1 engine would be 10 times better than a highly strung 4 pot, it's all aluminium and can make more power than you will ever need 
The Galaxy 2.3 has a HEAVY cylinder block and is undersquare with a 89.6mm bore and 91mm stroke.
The rods are the same length as the RS2000 ones and have the same big and small end diameters, the only difference is that they are not drilled for the oil jets for piston cooling.
Ford just moved the gudgeon pin up on the 2.3 piston to compensate.
2.3 on left, RS2000 on right
JE forged low comp 2.3 pistons next to stock 2.3
GT28 turbo 2.3 Galaxy engine
Mark
The Galaxy 2.3 has a HEAVY cylinder block and is undersquare with a 89.6mm bore and 91mm stroke.
The rods are the same length as the RS2000 ones and have the same big and small end diameters, the only difference is that they are not drilled for the oil jets for piston cooling.
Ford just moved the gudgeon pin up on the 2.3 piston to compensate.
2.3 on left, RS2000 on right
JE forged low comp 2.3 pistons next to stock 2.3
GT28 turbo 2.3 Galaxy engine
Mark
07-05-2007, 11:51 PM
#60
i had thought about using a galaxy engine, but the 'heavy' part is the bit i was trying to avoid. i've just loaded my YB head into my car to take to work tomorrow... fuck me it's heavy! going to recon it and then decide what to do with it
the car in question is an escos, it's basically going to be my fun car for weekends and track days.
going to recon it and then decide what to do with it the car in question is an escos, it's basically going to be my fun car for weekends and track days.
08-05-2007, 07:01 AM
#61
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what are the weights of the two engines fully buit for comparison
I would consider the lighter one for my next engine especialy in a lighter car
I would consider the lighter one for my next engine especialy in a lighter car
08-05-2007, 07:13 AM
#62
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MD Cos, the reason for not using a YB in rallying any more is that they have to use a homologiated block. Hence they have to use the 2litre zetec based block. This is probaly better suited for transverse mounting as well as it`s smaller in outer dimentions.
But you can get te same power out of them and with a WRC block and proper hardware the zetec should be fine. But the only advantage of going this route according to mountune is bulkiness and size.
But you can get te same power out of them and with a WRC block and proper hardware the zetec should be fine. But the only advantage of going this route according to mountune is bulkiness and size.
08-05-2007, 07:19 AM
#63
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Originally Posted by Stavros
Originally Posted by MD Cos
Originally Posted by SapphyMike
Why do you want 650bhp?
but if you havent, fuck that from a small engine, fun doesnt increase with money spent, not by a long shot.
expensive, unresponsive, unreliable, will need bloody expensive transmission, tyres, suspension, etc to make it even remotley handle the power, and even then it will be just a straight line car.
most sensible thing I have heard on PF for a long time Why not buy a brand new chevvy LS1 V8?? can get a crate engine WITH a tremic T56 for Ł4000 from the states
, and they are awsome engines that can be tuned to fook
08-05-2007, 10:00 AM
#64
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Originally Posted by Stavros
Originally Posted by bud-weis
you have also mentioned the EVO engines..why not just use one of them?? it's not a YB (which you seem dead against) and they can obviously be tuned to silly levels!
can buy a dart block that can take 2500bhp for 1000quid new, or an alloy version for 2k that prob weighs les than the YB or Zetec.
can buy full steel internals that stroke it to nearly 6litres for under a grand that can happily take 700bhp and 7000rpm
and with that capacity you can have no lag at all and more torque than you can imagine.
and unless you building a drag car or competing in a competition where the others have the same (and no, i dont mean the PF internet saddo im "cooler" than you as ive got more power i cant use competition
), whyd you need that power? fun deffo dont increase with power or money spent.
Dart block, 347 stoker kit, decent set of heads, custom cam and a turbonetics kit will but down 800bhp to the wheels with room to grow
08-05-2007, 12:12 PM
#66
10K+ Poster!!
As discussed on Sunday mate, stick with the YB.
I wouldn't go anywhere above 500 tbh as your going to have a job as mentioned keeping the transmission from busting itself.
I wouldn't go anywhere above 500 tbh as your going to have a job as mentioned keeping the transmission from busting itself.
08-05-2007, 01:44 PM
#67
15K+ Super Poster!!
It always make me laugh when people quote flow figures - according to CNC the std zetec does more than the YB - but we know that it's on it's arse at 300hp as std...
08-05-2007, 01:56 PM
#68
PassionFord Post Troll
Originally Posted by Rick
It always make me laugh when people quote flow figures - according to CNC the std zetec does more than the YB - but we know that it's on it's arse at 300hp as std...
08-05-2007, 04:19 PM
#70
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after talking to a chap at focussport he had a standard crank snap in two at 560whp he just wanted to see how far he could go,no problems with the block but billet main caps are a must at 400whp... building either to 650bhp is going to cost loads but at lease with the yb you have a steel crank and rods as standard.. but then forged zetec parts from the states are cheap.
thanks
sean
thanks
sean
08-05-2007, 05:39 PM
#71
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Originally Posted by MD Cos
i had thought about using a galaxy engine, but the 'heavy' part is the bit i was trying to avoid. i've just loaded my YB head into my car to take to work tomorrow... fuck me it's heavy! going to recon it and then decide what to do with it
the car in question is an escos, it's basically going to be my fun car for weekends and track days.
going to recon it and then decide what to do with it the car in question is an escos, it's basically going to be my fun car for weekends and track days.
08-05-2007, 07:12 PM
#72
Originally Posted by AustenW
Whats the centre to centre distance on the RS2000 rod?
Zetec 136.18mm
YB 128.5
according to this
http://www.arrowprecision.co.uk/rod_stock.php
Mark
If you use the RS2000 86mm crank you get 2168cc and can use 5mm longer rods giving almost 1.8:1 rod length to stroke ratio.
Edit to add pic of Galaxy/RS2000 Arrow rod
08-05-2007, 11:46 PM
#73
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to be honest i wouldn't take the power to 650. think the main problem with the zetec is that it was pretty much only used in fwd cars where anything powerwise to worry a yb was wasted, and anything rwd had a yb slapped in, excluding rally cars as they have budgets waaaay beyond most people's wallets. i say sod it, go zetec, and compare to a yb in someone else's car. see what happens, be different then settle the arguement on a track 
otherwise interesting read.
otherwise interesting read.
09-05-2007, 10:09 AM
#74
im doing a zetec turbo as its different tot he YB, and parts are far easier to get and cheaper too.
im only going for 400bhp tho as i have a T35 turbo, but it has a 247 maram shaft so ALS WILL be used lol
spec of mine
2.0l silvertop block bored +0.5mm
Wiseco low comp forged pistons +0.5mm oversize 7.8:1 CR
Carillo H secton steel rods
polished std crank
Stage 3 ported and polished with oversize REC valves (30mm i/l 32mm ex iirc)
focus rs head gasket
focus rs headbolts
Big winged and baffled sump
Piper BD10 custom grind cams
Piper vernier pulleys
Titan motorsport rollerbarrel throttles
Siemens 550cc injectors
T35 turbo with maram 247 shaft
SECS S8 ECU
custom flywheel in cosworth size with zetec bolt pattern, to use cosworth clutch and T5 gearbox
thats it off the top of my head.
as for the std cranks, sunny was running over 550bhp on his ZT with no probs, took the crank out after the car caught fire and said it looked like new!
im only going for 400bhp tho as i have a T35 turbo, but it has a 247 maram shaft so ALS WILL be used lol
spec of mine
2.0l silvertop block bored +0.5mm
Wiseco low comp forged pistons +0.5mm oversize 7.8:1 CR
Carillo H secton steel rods
polished std crank
Stage 3 ported and polished with oversize REC valves (30mm i/l 32mm ex iirc)
focus rs head gasket
focus rs headbolts
Big winged and baffled sump
Piper BD10 custom grind cams
Piper vernier pulleys
Titan motorsport rollerbarrel throttles
Siemens 550cc injectors
T35 turbo with maram 247 shaft
SECS S8 ECU
custom flywheel in cosworth size with zetec bolt pattern, to use cosworth clutch and T5 gearbox
thats it off the top of my head.
as for the std cranks, sunny was running over 550bhp on his ZT with no probs, took the crank out after the car caught fire and said it looked like new!
09-05-2007, 11:20 AM
#75
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Originally Posted by MD Cos
the car in question is an escos, it's basically going to be my fun car for weekends and track days.
Simple, cheap, fun, responsive, reliable and fast enough for fun on any track.
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