Stu's lambda Mapping - questions NOT AN ARGUMENT or MY post
01-07-2004, 11:53 AM
#1
Stu's lambda Mapping - questions NOT AN ARGUMENT or MY post
[***
This is Stu typing.
This post has been made up from discussion posts in a topic that began here: https://passionford.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=59845
Steve did not actually start this topic, i created it starting at his post simply to remove an argument from an innocent members topic.
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Why would it ?
Having a car run almost lean so its more econemical over running rich and cooling it down seems daft to me...
How is gus's car on the map ?
This is Stu typing.
This post has been made up from discussion posts in a topic that began here: https://passionford.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=59845
Steve did not actually start this topic, i created it starting at his post simply to remove an argument from an innocent members topic.
***
Originally Posted by Rs Gus
a nice lambda map would be mint in there why u taking the engine out????????????? 
Having a car run almost lean so its more econemical over running rich and cooling it down seems daft to me...
How is gus's car on the map ?
01-07-2004, 12:13 PM
#2
dingy,
Why would it ?
Having a car run almost lean so its more econemical over running rich and cooling it down seems daft to me...
Why would it ?
Having a car run almost lean so its more econemical over running rich and cooling it down seems daft to me...
So Mitsubishi, Subaru, Vauxhall, Ford, Lotus, Porshe, Maclaren, AMG, Mercedes, BMW.. etc etc etc.. are all fooking idiots and need to re-evaluate the strategy they have had in place since 1991... some 14 years eh? Or 20+ years in some cases...
A Quality statement to make indeed...
Oh,
And why the fook would it run hotter out of interest?
01-07-2004, 12:17 PM
#3
So on a 400bhp engine that gets very hot, its good to let it run lean and not rich to aid fuel ec over the cooling of the engine ?
Seems daft to me as a little extra fuel can cool the turbo / pistons and general cooling of the engine.....as u know the fuel does this ?
What temps were the entrance to the headers on the lambda map stu ?
Seems daft to me as a little extra fuel can cool the turbo / pistons and general cooling of the engine.....as u know the fuel does this ?
What temps were the entrance to the headers on the lambda map stu ?
01-07-2004, 12:19 PM
#4
Originally Posted by Stu @ M Developments
Dont talk rubbish.....
Oh,
And why the fook would it run hotter out of interest?
the less fuel u have the hotter it runs.......having a bit of extra fuel on overrun will cool the turbo and the pistons and on a 2.0 pushing 400bhp seems senisible to me
If it was standard like all the cars you have posted above then fair enough as they are well with in their limits.....
01-07-2004, 12:20 PM
#5
dingy,
So on a 400bhp engine that gets very hot, its good to let it run lean and not rich to aid fuel ec over the cooling of the engine ?
So on a 400bhp engine that gets very hot, its good to let it run lean and not rich to aid fuel ec over the cooling of the engine ?
Rapid throttle movements or pressures above 1.1bar absolute run base map configuration as does overun.....
01-07-2004, 12:25 PM
#7
dingy,
the less fuel u have the hotter it runs.......
the less fuel u have the hotter it runs.......
Feel free to get a CHT guage and run the car at the fuelling level of your choice and record the temperature, then run it at the chemically correct ratio and record it again..... then pop back here and tell me it runs hotter. Your pectel monitor will suffice just fine since ive just remembered you have got one.
dingy, having a bit of extra fuel on overrun will cool the turbo and the pistons and on a 2.0 pushing 400bhp seems senisible to me
So your saying catagorically that cold air with no fuel added to make it combust, is HOTTER than burning fuel? Wanna prove that somehow?
dingy,
If it was standard like all the cars you have posted above then fair enough as they are well with in their limits.....
If it was standard like all the cars you have posted above then fair enough as they are well with in their limits.....
Trending Topics
01-07-2004, 12:30 PM
#8
Personal digs at me stu for asking questions....cheers...
Just for the record, on oli's car it ran hotter on less fuel, we added a tiny bit more and it dropped 200 degree's
Eh ? i said adding a little fuel rather than not makes is cooler - is this not the case ?
All i am doing is asking questions on somert that seems daft to me personally
and as for the Macca - ITS still a standard car mate
Just for the record, on oli's car it ran hotter on less fuel, we added a tiny bit more and it dropped 200 degree's
Really?
So your saying catagorically that cold air with no fuel added to make it combust, is HOTTER than burning fuel? Wanna prove that somehow?
So your saying catagorically that cold air with no fuel added to make it combust, is HOTTER than burning fuel? Wanna prove that somehow?
All i am doing is asking questions on somert that seems daft to me personally
and as for the Macca - ITS still a standard car mate
01-07-2004, 12:32 PM
#9
Question
if you do a topspeed run on the motorway - hold it then let off and coast the throttle....
What happens to the temps on the lambda map and one that runs rich on overrun ?
if you do a topspeed run on the motorway - hold it then let off and coast the throttle....
What happens to the temps on the lambda map and one that runs rich on overrun ?
01-07-2004, 12:37 PM
#10
dingy,
Some people are obsessed with fuel ec on a 400bhp engine, seems daft and silly to me.....
Some people are obsessed with fuel ec on a 400bhp engine, seems daft and silly to me.....
Put it this way though.
I have customers come to me all teh time telling me their car on greys etc is fookin great, but i dont go to shows in it cos it eats fuel.. blah blah, and im sure if you did a poll on here there would be plenty of folks whom agree with me on that.
Now when offered a new way to run the same power, but have perfect road manners and almost factory fuel economy, why shouldnt they take it? Even with 750CC injectors, you can have 100% perfect throttle response / cold running & fuel economy...
To add another dimension to the equasion, ask Karl about TFC and all its corrsponding problems with huge injectors and the headaches it causes him with fuelling load sites.... His agonised face may make you smile..
The lambda software cures it 100%
01-07-2004, 12:41 PM
#11
Is some one wants greys and can't afford to run it then they should have a slower engine, its that simple....
Fuel ecomomy over what cost tho ?
Cossies get really fecking hot and melt very easily, i personally would soon have it cooler so it will last longer but still....everyone has a view on the matter
Fuel ecomomy over what cost tho ?
Cossies get really fecking hot and melt very easily, i personally would soon have it cooler so it will last longer but still....everyone has a view on the matter
01-07-2004, 12:46 PM
#12
dingy,
Personal digs at me stu for asking questions....cheers...
Personal digs at me stu for asking questions....cheers...
Where?????!!!!????
Just for the record, on oli's car it ran hotter on less fuel, we added a tiny bit more and it dropped 200 degree's
200degrees? Sounds more like it was on boost to me to drop that much, or it was massively too lean to start with with too much spark retard
dingy,
Eh ? i said adding a little fuel rather than not makes is cooler - is this not the case ?
Eh ? i said adding a little fuel rather than not makes is cooler - is this not the case ?
dingy,
Question
if you do a topspeed run on the motorway - hold it then let off and coast the throttle....
What happens to the temps on the lambda map and one that runs rich on overrun ?
Question
if you do a topspeed run on the motorway - hold it then let off and coast the throttle....
What happens to the temps on the lambda map and one that runs rich on overrun ?
If you mean a high acceleration run to a high speed, you would generally be backing off and coasting above 4000rpm then i expect? Just to save me anwering a question you didnt ask please.
01-07-2004, 12:49 PM
#13
Testing the future
you can't just say about running hot or cold - it depends what you're trying to do with the engine at the time.
full throttle / accelerating / on load requires a slightly rich mixture
part throtte cruising can use lambda = 1, which by definition is the best combustion that you can have
overun can use either lean mixtures, or cut fuel completely. this won't cau
se the engine to get hot as it would if you had a lean mixture under load, as the throttle is closed.
it's about making the most of what you have got / can get. why throw fuel out of the exhaust and coke your valves up if it's possible not to? surely you're not that ignorant. just cos you've got an old skool car, don't mean you need old skool carburettor thinking
full throttle / accelerating / on load requires a slightly rich mixture
part throtte cruising can use lambda = 1, which by definition is the best combustion that you can have
overun can use either lean mixtures, or cut fuel completely. this won't cau
se the engine to get hot as it would if you had a lean mixture under load, as the throttle is closed.
Is some one wants greys and can't afford to run it then they should have a slower engine
01-07-2004, 12:52 PM
#14
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Anyhow, when you lean it enough, the combustion gets colder again. Ď've mapped my engine to around AFR = 16:1 and beyond up till around 80 kPa. Then it jumps to stoich and goes gradually to 12:1 on full boost. It works really well and could be even better if the standard CVH hemi head design wasn't so crap as far as squish zones, lean burning and not detonating are considered.
01-07-2004, 12:54 PM
#15
Norris Motorsport
Yes Stu,on Oli's car it was on boost at 2 bar held. With the engine right at its limit at 12.5:1 AFR we were hitting 1000DegC ex temps, and richening to 11.0:1 at this boost level brought it down to near 800. (Pretty much what you'd expect on an engine thats being pushed this hard....i.e. having to overfuel to keep temps acceptable)
Steve the above situation has nothing to do with Stu's lambda controlled maps. These maps only run at lambda 1 at very light throttle and below say 4000rpm. Everywhere else it returns to the base map.
Next time I talk to you I'll tell you about the nightmare TFC problems I have with greys on non lambda maps ESPECIALLY on L6 managed cars.
Steve the above situation has nothing to do with Stu's lambda controlled maps. These maps only run at lambda 1 at very light throttle and below say 4000rpm. Everywhere else it returns to the base map.
Next time I talk to you I'll tell you about the nightmare TFC problems I have with greys on non lambda maps ESPECIALLY on L6 managed cars.
01-07-2004, 12:58 PM
#16
Allow me to post a hall of shame for you:
Apparently, all the following cars were built by manufacturers who stupidly, didnt know what the fook they were doing and in a moment of monumental stupidity ran em all lambda controlled... Stupid twats!!
Pure madness indeed eh Ding?
Apparently, all the following cars were built by manufacturers who stupidly, didnt know what the fook they were doing and in a moment of monumental stupidity ran em all lambda controlled... Stupid twats!!
Pure madness indeed eh Ding?
01-07-2004, 01:03 PM
#17
Karl,
Yes Stu,on Oli's car it was on boost at 2 bar held. With the engine right at its limit at 12.5:1 AFR we were hitting 1000DegC ex temps, and richening to 11.0:1 at this boost level brought it down to near 800. (Pretty much what you'd expect on an engine thats being pushed this hard....i.e. having to overfuel to keep temps acceptable)
Yes Stu,on Oli's car it was on boost at 2 bar held. With the engine right at its limit at 12.5:1 AFR we were hitting 1000DegC ex temps, and richening to 11.0:1 at this boost level brought it down to near 800. (Pretty much what you'd expect on an engine thats being pushed this hard....i.e. having to overfuel to keep temps acceptable)
I dont think steve realises that 12.5 down to 11.0 isnt a "bit" of fuel, its a whole fookin pint glass of it... Lambda numbers are deceptive..
Karl,
Steve the above situation has nothing to do with Stu's lambda controlled maps. These maps only run at lambda 1 at very light throttle and below say 4000rpm. Everywhere else it returns to the base map.
Steve the above situation has nothing to do with Stu's lambda controlled maps. These maps only run at lambda 1 at very light throttle and below say 4000rpm. Everywhere else it returns to the base map.
Karl,
Next time I talk to you I'll tell you about the nightmare TFC problems I have with greys on non lambda maps ESPECIALLY on L6 managed cars.
Next time I talk to you I'll tell you about the nightmare TFC problems I have with greys on non lambda maps ESPECIALLY on L6 managed cars.
Especially the "NGS" syndrome
Wouldnt it be great if you could easily convert L6 to full level 8 spec, including lambda control?
01-07-2004, 01:08 PM
#18
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I'd guess lambda 1 --> AFR 14.7:1 is used merely because of catalysator and emissions point of view. If one doesn't have a cat, who care's about lambda equalling 1?
01-07-2004, 01:37 PM
#22
dingy,
This post is fuck all to do with me....
This post is fuck all to do with me....
dingy,
What a shit way of making a point stu....
What a shit way of making a point stu....
dingy,
How is gus's engine btw ?
How is gus's engine btw ?
01-07-2004, 01:40 PM
#23
Testing the future
What a shit way of making a point stu....
or a good way of saving fuel / reducing emmissions / doing a little bit to save the planet?
or a good way to subtly advertise lambda control mapping?
[big brother stylee north east accent] you decide [/big brother stylee north east accent]
01-07-2004, 01:46 PM
#24
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Dingy,
I know this is probably nowt to do with me but I'm certain Stu hasn't made this seperate thread to belittle you..............simply to remove a conversation from a thread and make a new one because it was pretty much completely off-topic!
Cheers,
Ian
PS. Get that loom finished ya slacker
I know this is probably nowt to do with me but I'm certain Stu hasn't made this seperate thread to belittle you..............simply to remove a conversation from a thread and make a new one because it was pretty much completely off-topic!
Cheers,
Ian
PS. Get that loom finished ya slacker
01-07-2004, 01:49 PM
#26
How much of a disclaimer did you need in the post Steve?
Was this not understandable enough for you?
***
This is Stu typing.
This post has been made up from discussion posts in a topic that began here: https://passionford.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=59845
Steve did not actually start this topic, i created it starting at his post simply to remove an argument from an innocent members topic.
***
Was this not understandable enough for you?
***
This is Stu typing.
This post has been made up from discussion posts in a topic that began here: https://passionford.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=59845
Steve did not actually start this topic, i created it starting at his post simply to remove an argument from an innocent members topic.
***
01-07-2004, 02:19 PM
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Jon ERST S2, My guess is that if you are modding a block that was not designed in the first place to put out 250+bhp per litre, you don't have the luxury of correct cooling everywhere - therefore you have to use what works - loss of efficiency in turbo engines is never as important as in normally aspirated lumps, as you can always force more fuel and air in with higher pressures to bring power even higher......
01-07-2004, 02:30 PM
#32
Eh?
What teh fook are you talking about?
That first post is yours!! How can you not agree with it?
I only added the red text to indicate it was part of another topic once upon a time. And it wasnt done by a moderator, it was done by me.
Chill the fook out eh? Im sure most folks will agree that it's high time you learnt to have an adult discussion and still have your dummy with you at the end of it FFS!!
What teh fook are you talking about?
That first post is yours!! How can you not agree with it?
I only added the red text to indicate it was part of another topic once upon a time. And it wasnt done by a moderator, it was done by me.
Chill the fook out eh? Im sure most folks will agree that it's high time you learnt to have an adult discussion and still have your dummy with you at the end of it FFS!!
01-07-2004, 04:54 PM
#39
I am a cock mate 
Did i say there was any thing up with your engine
Ranj fuck off
sunny fuck off
Madettes to the THREAD
Fucking internet kings everywhere never questioning fuck all.........spinless....
RANJ - CLUELESS - PMSL - GRP 4 ESCORT MATE worth same as a FRST
Did i say there was any thing up with your engine
Ranj fuck off
sunny fuck off
Madettes to the THREAD
Fucking internet kings everywhere never questioning fuck all.........spinless....
RANJ - CLUELESS - PMSL - GRP 4 ESCORT MATE worth same as a FRST
01-07-2004, 05:08 PM
#40
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IMO, the main issue that is being 'missed' by some here, is the fact that lambda=1 closed loop control is only being used at light throttle, light load operating conditions, to enable the closed-loop lambda control mechanism in the ECU to overcome the lack of injector duration resolution at light loads creating unneccesarily rich or erratic fuelling - this gives the opportunity to get good fuel economy and emmissions FOR FREE, with no downside. Once load or rpm rises it releases the closed loop control and reverts to open-loop base mapping at a suitably rich setting for the conditions.
You can run at lambda=1 or indeed quite a chunk leaner at light loads all day long, without any fear of creating any overheating... it's got absolutely nothing to do with the melting potential of a high-output engine under boost conditions, or the benefits of adding some fuel under those high load conditions to cool things down a bit, which everyone agrees on...
You can run at lambda=1 or indeed quite a chunk leaner at light loads all day long, without any fear of creating any overheating... it's got absolutely nothing to do with the melting potential of a high-output engine under boost conditions, or the benefits of adding some fuel under those high load conditions to cool things down a bit, which everyone agrees on...