Stu's lambda Mapping - questions NOT AN ARGUMENT or MY post
 

[***
This is Stu typing.
This post has been made up from discussion posts in a topic that began here: https://passionford.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=59845
Steve did not actually start this topic, i created it starting at his post simply to remove an argument from an innocent members topic.
***



Why would it ?

Having a car run almost lean so its more econemical over running rich and cooling it down seems daft to me...

How is gus's car on the map ?

Dont talk rubbish.....

So Mitsubishi, Subaru, Vauxhall, Ford, Lotus, Porshe, Maclaren, AMG, Mercedes, BMW.. etc etc etc.. are all fooking idiots and need to re-evaluate the strategy they have had in place since 1991... some 14 years eh? Or 20+ years in some cases...

A Quality statement to make indeed... :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry:


Oh,
And why the fook would it run hotter out of interest? :? :? :?

So on a 400bhp engine that gets very hot, its good to let it run lean and not rich to aid fuel ec over the cooling of the engine ?

Seems daft to me as a little extra fuel can cool the turbo / pistons and general cooling of the engine.....as u know the fuel does this ?

What temps were the entrance to the headers on the lambda map stu ?

Is that a trick question ?

the less fuel u have the hotter it runs.......having a bit of extra fuel on overrun will cool the turbo and the pistons and on a 2.0 pushing 400bhp seems senisible to me

If it was standard like all the cars you have posted above then fair enough as they are well with in their limits.....

Before you get to deep into your line of attack Steve, closed loop lambda controlled management systems only run lambda 1 at virtually level throttle conditions.... ;)

Rapid throttle movements or pressures above 1.1bar absolute run base map configuration as does overun..... :p

I aint on a line of attack at all mate...

Some people are obsessed with fuel ec on a 400bhp engine, seems daft and silly to me.....

Steve,
Feel free to get a CHT guage and run the car at the fuelling level of your choice and record the temperature, then run it at the chemically correct ratio and record it again..... then pop back here and tell me it runs hotter. Your pectel monitor will suffice just fine since ive just remembered you have got one.



Really?
So your saying catagorically that cold air with no fuel added to make it combust, is HOTTER than burning fuel? Wanna prove that somehow? :?


The Maclaren F1 is hardly what id call a "std" car to be honest, but hey, im sure yours is faster, but are you saying its NOT within its limits? :?

Personal digs at me stu for asking questions....cheers...

Just for the record, on oli's car it ran hotter on less fuel, we added a tiny bit more and it dropped 200 degree's

Eh ? i said adding a little fuel rather than not makes is cooler - is this not the case ?

All i am doing is asking questions on somert that seems daft to me personally

and as for the Macca - ITS still a standard car mate :blabla: :blabla: :blabla:

Question

if you do a topspeed run on the motorway - hold it then let off and coast the throttle....

What happens to the temps on the lambda map and one that runs rich on overrun ?

I dont think they are to be honest Steve.

Put it this way though.
I have customers come to me all teh time telling me their car on greys etc is fookin great, but i dont go to shows in it cos it eats fuel.. blah blah, and im sure if you did a poll on here there would be plenty of folks whom agree with me on that.

Now when offered a new way to run the same power, but have perfect road manners and almost factory fuel economy, why shouldnt they take it? Even with 750CC injectors, you can have 100% perfect throttle response / cold running & fuel economy...

To add another dimension to the equasion, ask Karl about TFC and all its corrsponding problems with huge injectors and the headaches it causes him with fuelling load sites.... His agonised face may make you smile.. :DD:
The lambda software cures it 100% :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana:

Is some one wants greys and can't afford to run it then they should have a slower engine, its that simple....

Fuel ecomomy over what cost tho ?

Cossies get really fecking hot and melt very easily, i personally would soon have it cooler so it will last longer but still....everyone has a view on the matter :cool:

Eh? :? :? Where?????!!!!????


What are you calling less fuel? Lambda 1 is quite rich by modern standards Steve and the car will run just fine down to lmbda 1.2 which is massively leaner!!

200degrees? Sounds more like it was on boost to me to drop that much, or it was massively too lean to start with with too much spark retard ;)


No you didnt, you said on overrun. :p


How can you do a top speed run then let off and hold the throttle? that would be a "rev limiter" Steve :?

If you mean a high acceleration run to a high speed, you would generally be backing off and coasting above 4000rpm then i expect? Just to save me anwering a question you didnt ask please.

you can't just say about running hot or cold - it depends what you're trying to do with the engine at the time.

full throttle / accelerating / on load requires a slightly rich mixture

part throtte cruising can use lambda = 1, which by definition is the best combustion that you can have

overun can use either lean mixtures, or cut fuel completely. this won't cau
se the engine to get hot as it would if you had a lean mixture under load, as the throttle is closed.

it's about making the most of what you have got / can get. why throw fuel out of the exhaust and coke your valves up if it's possible not to? surely you're not that ignorant. just cos you've got an old skool car, don't mean you need old skool carburettor thinking :?

Anyhow, when you lean it enough, the combustion gets colder again. Ï've mapped my engine to around AFR = 16:1 and beyond up till around 80 kPa. Then it jumps to stoich and goes gradually to 12:1 on full boost. It works really well and could be even better if the standard CVH hemi head design wasn't so crap as far as squish zones, lean burning and not detonating are considered.

Yes Stu,on Oli's car it was on boost at 2 bar held. With the engine right at its limit at 12.5:1 AFR we were hitting 1000DegC ex temps, and richening to 11.0:1 at this boost level brought it down to near 800. (Pretty much what you'd expect on an engine thats being pushed this hard....i.e. having to overfuel to keep temps acceptable)

Steve the above situation has nothing to do with Stu's lambda controlled maps. These maps only run at lambda 1 at very light throttle and below say 4000rpm. Everywhere else it returns to the base map.

Next time I talk to you I'll tell you about the nightmare TFC problems I have with greys on non lambda maps ESPECIALLY on L6 managed cars.

Allow me to post a hall of shame for you:

Apparently, all the following cars were built by manufacturers who stupidly, didnt know what the fook they were doing and in a moment of monumental stupidity ran em all lambda controlled... Stupid twats!! :eek:

http://www.chem.ucla.edu/~na/pics/cars/ferrari/F40.jpg

http://www.chem.ucla.edu/~na/pics/cars/ferrari/FF50.jpg

http://www.chem.ucla.edu/~na/pics/cars/ferrari/F550.jpg

http://www.chem.ucla.edu/~na/pics/ca...boSE30jota.jpg
http://www.chem.ucla.edu/~na/pics/ca...en/f1int02.jpg

http://www.chem.ucla.edu/~na/pics/cars/porsche/CTR2.jpg

http://www.chem.ucla.edu/~na/pics/ca...ans/brabus.jpg

http://www.chem.ucla.edu/~na/pics/ca...ans/BMW-M3.jpg

http://www.chem.ucla.edu/~na/pics/ca...CallawayC7.jpg

http://www.chem.ucla.edu/~na/pics/cars/usa/cobra.jpg

http://www.chem.ucla.edu/~na/pics/ca...itsu3000GT.jpg

Pure madness indeed eh Ding? :king:

Absolutely Karl, good practice too, i personally dont want to run anything at 12.5 either, well, maybe only for a dyno shootout..... ;)
I dont think steve realises that 12.5 down to 11.0 isnt a "bit" of fuel, its a whole fookin pint glass of it... Lambda numbers are deceptive.. ;) :cry:


Thanks for that clarification Karl, as i know for some reason Steve wont believe a word i say :? :(


Weve spent some hours slagging that opff havent we mate? :cry:
Especially the "NGS" syndrome :DD: :cry:
Wouldnt it be great if you could easily convert L6 to full level 8 spec, including lambda control? ;) :cool:

I'd guess lambda 1 --> AFR 14.7:1 is used merely because of catalysator and emissions point of view. If one doesn't have a cat, who care's about lambda equalling 1?

just that it's when you have just enough fuel for the oxygen, and vice versa, so there's no shit left over

This post is fuck all to do with me.... :mad:

What a shit way of making a point stu.... :wall:


How is gus's engine btw ?

Steve....

Do you work in the Auto industry?

Have you in the post?

Do you have an automotive qualification?

Alex

Read the first post then you mardy coont... :roll:


Again? Read the first post, all ive done is clear an argument from a guys post, something im sure hes fooking pleased about! :wall:


Fine as far as i know? Why ask me?

or a good way of trying to educate people?

or a good way of saving fuel / reducing emmissions / doing a little bit to save the planet?

or a good way to subtly advertise lambda control mapping?

[big brother stylee north east accent] you decide [/big brother stylee north east accent]

Dingy,

I know this is probably nowt to do with me but I'm certain Stu hasn't made this seperate thread to belittle you..............simply to remove a conversation from a thread and make a new one because it was pretty much completely off-topic!

Cheers,
Ian
PS. Get that loom finished ya slacker ;) :p

i dont even understand where this post was ment to go :oops:

How much of a disclaimer did you need in the post Steve?

Was this not understandable enough for you? :? :(

***
This is Stu typing.
This post has been made up from discussion posts in a topic that began here: https://passionford.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=59845
Steve did not actually start this topic, i created it starting at his post simply to remove an argument from an innocent members topic.
***

Surely if an engine can run perfect AFR surely thats best?

Addiing fuel to cool, is surely just a compromise to achieve an end?

That red writing is giving me a migrane please refrain :cry:

Jon ERST S2, My guess is that if you are modding a block that was not designed in the first place to put out 250+bhp per litre, you don't have the luxury of correct cooling everywhere - therefore you have to use what works - loss of efficiency in turbo engines is never as important as in normally aspirated lumps, as you can always force more fuel and air in with higher pressures to bring power even higher......

I thought you would have been used to seeing red by now Spadgeroo :p :DD:

Moderator has rights to do anything...

Does not mean i agree just cause u wrote that at the top.

Eh?
What teh fook are you talking about? :?

That first post is yours!! How can you not agree with it? :?

I only added the red text to indicate it was part of another topic once upon a time. And it wasnt done by a moderator, it was done by me.

Chill the fook out eh? Im sure most folks will agree that it's high time you learnt to have an adult discussion and still have your dummy with you at the end of it FFS!! :wall:

chill out guys :top: :top:

at least act like grown ups :banana: :top:

One word Dingy




CLUELESS

:cry:

cue dingy :cry:

Here we go again....same people......same sh!t......diffierent post.

Nothing personal but Dingy...who don't you just give up mate. :roll:

dingy my engine is fine m8 why????????? u r a complete COCK ARENT YOU! :cry2: :cry2: :cry2: :cry2: :cry2:

GUS, dont hold back will you :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry:

I am a cock mate :oops: :oops: :oops:

Did i say there was any thing up with your engine :blabla:

Ranj fuck off
sunny fuck off

Madettes to the THREAD :blabla: :blabla: :blabla: :blabla: :blabla:

Fucking internet kings everywhere never questioning fuck all.........spinless....


RANJ - CLUELESS - PMSL - GRP 4 ESCORT MATE worth same as a FRST :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry:

IMO, the main issue that is being 'missed' by some here, is the fact that lambda=1 closed loop control is only being used at light throttle, light load operating conditions, to enable the closed-loop lambda control mechanism in the ECU to overcome the lack of injector duration resolution at light loads creating unneccesarily rich or erratic fuelling - this gives the opportunity to get good fuel economy and emmissions FOR FREE, with no downside. Once load or rpm rises it releases the closed loop control and reverts to open-loop base mapping at a suitably rich setting for the conditions.
You can run at lambda=1 or indeed quite a chunk leaner at light loads all day long, without any fear of creating any overheating... it's got absolutely nothing to do with the melting potential of a high-output engine under boost conditions, or the benefits of adding some fuel under those high load conditions to cool things down a bit, which everyone agrees on...