YB vs ZT THE ARGUMENT
#1
YB vs ZT THE ARGUMENT
right, i'm in a situation where i can build either engine, but i can't decide which i'm going to do.
so i need you, the good people of PF to help me decide! the thing is, i don't want an opinion on which you prefer, i want an opinion based on hard facts (which you will need to voice).
i want the argument based on a engine with the figure of 650bhp, plus they have to be reliable, so the strength of the standard crank and rods do not apply as they would be replaced with steel items.
right, to start off, i'll voice a small argument for both engines which you may expand on if you wish
YB:
the YB is proven to be strong, it has a big following with tons of aftermarket bits for it out there. ford used it for touring cars and rallying, but it is big, heavy and old!
ZT:
the zetec is 10 years newer than the YB, it's VERY similar to a 4g63 evo engine in its measurements (internal), which is also a well proven engine. ford switched to using this in rallying instead of keeping the YB, there must be a reason for this? the st170 head can flow more than the cossie with smaller valves as standard (fact taken from cnc heads site)
so... your opinions and explinations please!
so i need you, the good people of PF to help me decide! the thing is, i don't want an opinion on which you prefer, i want an opinion based on hard facts (which you will need to voice).
i want the argument based on a engine with the figure of 650bhp, plus they have to be reliable, so the strength of the standard crank and rods do not apply as they would be replaced with steel items.
right, to start off, i'll voice a small argument for both engines which you may expand on if you wish
YB:
the YB is proven to be strong, it has a big following with tons of aftermarket bits for it out there. ford used it for touring cars and rallying, but it is big, heavy and old!
ZT:
the zetec is 10 years newer than the YB, it's VERY similar to a 4g63 evo engine in its measurements (internal), which is also a well proven engine. ford switched to using this in rallying instead of keeping the YB, there must be a reason for this? the st170 head can flow more than the cossie with smaller valves as standard (fact taken from cnc heads site)
so... your opinions and explinations please!
#4
DEYTUKURJERBS
Re: YB vs ZT THE ARGUMENT
Originally Posted by MD Cos
ford switched to using this in rallying instead of keeping the YB, there must be a reason for this? the st170 head can flow more than the cossie with smaller valves as standard (fact taken from cnc heads site)
im sure if they could theyd use a formula 1, CART, or TopFuel engine if they could, but they cant.
and head flow isnt the be all end end all, good for top end bhp figures, but YBs always have great torque and relativley low boost thrsholds for the spec, and thats most likely down to fairly small ports.
no idea how strong the zetec block is, but YB is proven at nuts power, which is nice.
#5
Re: YB vs ZT THE ARGUMENT
Originally Posted by Stavros
reason for this? err, how about no ford vehicle uses a YB anymore?
surely ford wouldn't take a step backwards?
#7
PassionFord Post Whore!!
There is no arguement..
Show me a Zetec engine that does 650 and I'll show you 10 YB's that do 650.
The YB is from YE OLDE SKOOL of engineering where everything was over engineered- same idea as the R32 GTR
Jake
Show me a Zetec engine that does 650 and I'll show you 10 YB's that do 650.
The YB is from YE OLDE SKOOL of engineering where everything was over engineered- same idea as the R32 GTR
Jake
Trending Topics
#8
Re: YB vs ZT THE ARGUMENT
Originally Posted by MD Cos
Originally Posted by Stavros
reason for this? err, how about no ford vehicle uses a YB anymore?
surely ford wouldn't take a step backwards?
#10
PassionFord Post Whore!!
Originally Posted by zippyobrien
every thing wasnt over enginered though was it,
)
)
Ok you;'re taking my words literally... no not EVERYTHING but the YB engine is.
#11
Originally Posted by Stavros
Dunno if you noticed mate, but WRC engines are low revving 300bhp 2litre turbo motors.
Not exactly a hard push for any engine, lol...
Not exactly a hard push for any engine, lol...
Originally Posted by Shings
There is no arguement..
Show me a Zetec engine that does 650 and I'll show you 10 YB's that do 650.
Show me a Zetec engine that does 650 and I'll show you 10 YB's that do 650.
i'll admit that there are loads of cossies with big power, but is the reason that there are so little zetecs out there purely because the 'lets build a fast ford' way seems to be set in stone? i sometimes wonder why people don't use the granada cos engine turbo'd very often, i reckon it could make a huge amount of power if somebody spent a bit of time developing it, but are people too scared to try these things?
the zetec just seems the ideal turbo motor base to me!
#13
Because no one wants to spend the time or money developing it. Everything would be unchartered territory. A bit like rod with his 200mph yb. Look how much money he's had to spend on that as everything is un tested. Why spend loads of money trying to get a zetec to 650 when you KNOW you can get a yb to 650 and with what spec etc.
Plus the zetec is old as well now anyway so why not try and tune the duratec if you're going to be spending a fortune on development?
Plus the zetec is old as well now anyway so why not try and tune the duratec if you're going to be spending a fortune on development?
#14
PassionFord Post Whore!!
Originally Posted by MD Cos
Originally Posted by Stavros
Dunno if you noticed mate, but WRC engines are low revving 300bhp 2litre turbo motors.
Not exactly a hard push for any engine, lol...
Not exactly a hard push for any engine, lol...
Originally Posted by Shings
There is no arguement..
Show me a Zetec engine that does 650 and I'll show you 10 YB's that do 650.
Show me a Zetec engine that does 650 and I'll show you 10 YB's that do 650.
i'll admit that there are loads of cossies with big power, but is the reason that there are so little zetecs out there purely because the 'lets build a fast ford' way seems to be set in stone? i sometimes wonder why people don't use the granada cos engine turbo'd very often, i reckon it could make a huge amount of power if somebody spent a bit of time developing it, but are people too scared to try these things?
the zetec just seems the ideal turbo motor base to me!
The granada cossie engine doesn't have a big following- I know from Nutters experience trying to get STANDARD rebuild parts is difficult.
I disagree with FAST FORD and SET IN STONE- a few years ago it was T4 and greys or T4 and RS500 set up- now as roller baring turbo's and bigger capacity injectors are more readily available its not set in stone.
The fact remains tho- to make a cossie engine fast you do (basically) 3 things.
1 bolt on big turbo
2 bigger injectors
3 map/chip to suit.
Cossie engine has STEEL crank and STEEL I section rods.
The Zetec doesn't.
Jake
#15
PassionFord Post Whore!!
Originally Posted by zippyobrien
i still maintain that the rs2000 motor is an awsome engine out of the box and bucks for bucks is a better road car engine up to a reasonable power, no one seems to have developed them,
i mean, 330 bhp at 12 psi, dont htink ive ever seen a cossie do that
i mean, 330 bhp at 12 psi, dont htink ive ever seen a cossie do that
I have...
Boost pressure has nothing to do with it... if you bolt a big enough turbo.
12psi on a T4 will shift more air than 12psi on a T3.
Jake
#16
PassionFord Post Whore!!
iTrader: (2)
i understand that
but this was 12 psi on a small ish (in comparasion to say say a gt32 or a t35 or t4)
obviously big turbos make large pwer at low boost, look at skyline motors,
surely theres got to be more devlopment using massive turbos and high revs,
a power band a 4000 rpm is good enough and zetecs will rev to 9k all day with the right set up, so surely they hold more potential in that respect,
but this was 12 psi on a small ish (in comparasion to say say a gt32 or a t35 or t4)
obviously big turbos make large pwer at low boost, look at skyline motors,
surely theres got to be more devlopment using massive turbos and high revs,
a power band a 4000 rpm is good enough and zetecs will rev to 9k all day with the right set up, so surely they hold more potential in that respect,
#17
PassionFord Post Whore!!
Originally Posted by zippyobrien
i understand that
but this was 12 psi on a small ish (in comparasion to say say a gt32 or a t35 or t4)
obviously big turbos make large pwer at low boost, look at skyline motors,
surely theres got to be more devlopment using massive turbos and high revs,
a power band a 4000 rpm is good enough and zetecs will rev to 9k all day with the right set up, so surely they hold more potential in that respect,
but this was 12 psi on a small ish (in comparasion to say say a gt32 or a t35 or t4)
obviously big turbos make large pwer at low boost, look at skyline motors,
surely theres got to be more devlopment using massive turbos and high revs,
a power band a 4000 rpm is good enough and zetecs will rev to 9k all day with the right set up, so surely they hold more potential in that respect,
I totally understand things get better as you go along..
I am no expert at all- but on this arguement of Zetec Vs YB cossie..
There is no arguement at all.
#18
Originally Posted by Shings
Development costs money.
The granada cossie engine doesn't have a big following- I know from Nutters experience trying to get STANDARD rebuild parts is difficult.
I disagree with FAST FORD and SET IN STONE- a few years ago it was T4 and greys or T4 and RS500 set up- now as roller baring turbo's and bigger capacity injectors are more readily available its not set in stone.
The fact remains tho- to make a cossie engine fast you do (basically) 3 things.
1 bolt on big turbo
2 bigger injectors
3 map/chip to suit.
Cossie engine has STEEL crank and STEEL I section rods.
The Zetec doesn't.
Jake
The granada cossie engine doesn't have a big following- I know from Nutters experience trying to get STANDARD rebuild parts is difficult.
I disagree with FAST FORD and SET IN STONE- a few years ago it was T4 and greys or T4 and RS500 set up- now as roller baring turbo's and bigger capacity injectors are more readily available its not set in stone.
The fact remains tho- to make a cossie engine fast you do (basically) 3 things.
1 bolt on big turbo
2 bigger injectors
3 map/chip to suit.
Cossie engine has STEEL crank and STEEL I section rods.
The Zetec doesn't.
Jake
i'll agree that development does cost money, but the YB would never be where it is today if somebody hadn't dared to spend the time and money making it that way!
the granada cos engine parts are hard to get hold of because there was never a big following, if it had the following the YB does, i'm sure that there would still be reproduction bits being made by the hundreds for it today!
one good thing on the 'development' front though is the good ol' US of A, they've been tuning the zetec for a few years now, so many uprated parts are available and cheap!
#19
PassionFord Post Whore!!
Originally Posted by MD Cos
Originally Posted by Shings
Development costs money.
The granada cossie engine doesn't have a big following- I know from Nutters experience trying to get STANDARD rebuild parts is difficult.
I disagree with FAST FORD and SET IN STONE- a few years ago it was T4 and greys or T4 and RS500 set up- now as roller baring turbo's and bigger capacity injectors are more readily available its not set in stone.
The fact remains tho- to make a cossie engine fast you do (basically) 3 things.
1 bolt on big turbo
2 bigger injectors
3 map/chip to suit.
Cossie engine has STEEL crank and STEEL I section rods.
The Zetec doesn't.
Jake
The granada cossie engine doesn't have a big following- I know from Nutters experience trying to get STANDARD rebuild parts is difficult.
I disagree with FAST FORD and SET IN STONE- a few years ago it was T4 and greys or T4 and RS500 set up- now as roller baring turbo's and bigger capacity injectors are more readily available its not set in stone.
The fact remains tho- to make a cossie engine fast you do (basically) 3 things.
1 bolt on big turbo
2 bigger injectors
3 map/chip to suit.
Cossie engine has STEEL crank and STEEL I section rods.
The Zetec doesn't.
Jake
i'll agree that development does cost money, but the YB would never be where it is today if somebody hadn't dared to spend the time and money making it that way!
the granada cos engine parts are hard to get hold of because there was never a big following, if it had the following the YB does, i'm sure that there would still be reproduction bits being made by the hundreds for it today!
one good thing on the 'development' front though is the good ol' US of A, they've been tuning the zetec for a few years now, so many uprated parts are available and cheap!
You cant take the internals out of the equation simply because you can do 650 on a standard cossie crank- albeit a good one.
Not possible on a zetec- will fall apart I am sure.
Also- the yanks dont have the YB otherwise I am sure they would favour that too.
#22
PassionFord Post Whore!!
Re: YB vs ZT THE ARGUMENT
Originally Posted by MD Cos
right, i'm in a situation where i can build either engine, but i can't decide which i'm going to do.
top:
top:
Right..... if it was me- its simple.
TO do 650 out of a YB its gonna be cheaper and more "reliable" than doing it to a Zetec.
A tried and tested formula that will and does deliver what you want.
I know where my money would be spent.
Thats the answer to your question.
Jake
#23
PassionFord Post Whore!!
iTrader: (2)
zetec zetec zetec,
how about a full 2.2 or 2.4 zetec turbo with idependandt throttle bodies and a fucky gt roller bearing turbo,
in all honesty, im not the most techinically minded of people, so all that affects my opinion is bhp per ŁŁŁŁ
and as already said forged internalls are so cheap for a zetec,
ive never really considered a zetec as a contender for the yb beofre, onyl a replacement for the cvh
how about a full 2.2 or 2.4 zetec turbo with idependandt throttle bodies and a fucky gt roller bearing turbo,
in all honesty, im not the most techinically minded of people, so all that affects my opinion is bhp per ŁŁŁŁ
and as already said forged internalls are so cheap for a zetec,
ive never really considered a zetec as a contender for the yb beofre, onyl a replacement for the cvh
#24
Re: YB vs ZT THE ARGUMENT
Originally Posted by Shings
Originally Posted by MD Cos
right, i'm in a situation where i can build either engine, but i can't decide which i'm going to do.
top:
top:
Right..... if it was me- its simple.
TO do 650 out of a YB its gonna be cheaper and more "reliable" than doing it to a Zetec.
A tried and tested formula that will and does deliver what you want.
I know where my money would be spent.
Thats the answer to your question.
Jake
thank you for your input anyway, its just what i'm after anybody else?
#25
Originally Posted by zippyobrien
zetec zetec zetec,
how about a full 2.2 or 2.4 zetec turbo with idependandt throttle bodies and a fucky gt roller bearing turbo,
in all honesty, im not the most techinically minded of people, so all that affects my opinion is bhp per ŁŁŁŁ
and as already said forged internalls are so cheap for a zetec,
ive never really considered a zetec as a contender for the yb beofre, onyl a replacement for the cvh
how about a full 2.2 or 2.4 zetec turbo with idependandt throttle bodies and a fucky gt roller bearing turbo,
in all honesty, im not the most techinically minded of people, so all that affects my opinion is bhp per ŁŁŁŁ
and as already said forged internalls are so cheap for a zetec,
ive never really considered a zetec as a contender for the yb beofre, onyl a replacement for the cvh
#27
PassionFord Post Whore!!
Originally Posted by MD Cos
Originally Posted by zippyobrien
zetec zetec zetec,
how about a full 2.2 or 2.4 zetec turbo with idependandt throttle bodies and a fucky gt roller bearing turbo,
in all honesty, im not the most techinically minded of people, so all that affects my opinion is bhp per ŁŁŁŁ
and as already said forged internalls are so cheap for a zetec,
ive never really considered a zetec as a contender for the yb beofre, onyl a replacement for the cvh
how about a full 2.2 or 2.4 zetec turbo with idependandt throttle bodies and a fucky gt roller bearing turbo,
in all honesty, im not the most techinically minded of people, so all that affects my opinion is bhp per ŁŁŁŁ
and as already said forged internalls are so cheap for a zetec,
ive never really considered a zetec as a contender for the yb beofre, onyl a replacement for the cvh
At the end of the day- talk to the person who's going to build the engine and do the tuning- ask them what they suggest.
Tell them what you want to do with your car and what you hope to achieve.
Then go from there.
Jake
#28
i'll be the one building it, as i work at an engine remanufacturers (britains largest), i have all the tools around me that i will ever need to do the work
not bothered by the duratec to be honest, don't think it shares the normal ford bellhousing pattern, so can't be bothered with it! otherwise, i'd go for the 5cyl volvo lump!
not bothered by the duratec to be honest, don't think it shares the normal ford bellhousing pattern, so can't be bothered with it! otherwise, i'd go for the 5cyl volvo lump!
#29
Advanced PassionFord User
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: thurso far far north of scotland
Posts: 1,709
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
i would go for it the more people that experiment wi the zetec the more
we will find out what the block and head are capable off we cant use the yb engine for big power forever can we?
we will find out what the block and head are capable off we cant use the yb engine for big power forever can we?
#30
Shings
Basicly what he said. There are quite a few high powered yb's out there, where as probibly only a handful of 600bhp+ zetecs.
If you want best bang for your buck go for the yb, if you want something different and a real project, and dont mind spending the extra money to have sopmething different, go for the zetec.
Basicly what he said. There are quite a few high powered yb's out there, where as probibly only a handful of 600bhp+ zetecs.
If you want best bang for your buck go for the yb, if you want something different and a real project, and dont mind spending the extra money to have sopmething different, go for the zetec.
#31
20K+ Super Poster.
Why change look how long other engines have been around and still being developed/tuned, V8 chevy for example werre around for years, in their millions.
Why does it need to be a choice ? I got yb for cheap easy power where someone else, ie tuning firms had already had all the hassle and cost of development, as for us power figures, they are sometimes as wide as their gobs IMO.
Cost is very important and I wish we had the cheap prices like they do.
Comparing head flow is ridiculous of one aspirated and one not aspirated head, all it tells you is one(ST) NEEDED to flow a lot better as no turbo.
Ports of turbo engines are not as important, but torque will be better at lower revs as more air can be consumed
tabetha
Why does it need to be a choice ? I got yb for cheap easy power where someone else, ie tuning firms had already had all the hassle and cost of development, as for us power figures, they are sometimes as wide as their gobs IMO.
Cost is very important and I wish we had the cheap prices like they do.
Comparing head flow is ridiculous of one aspirated and one not aspirated head, all it tells you is one(ST) NEEDED to flow a lot better as no turbo.
Ports of turbo engines are not as important, but torque will be better at lower revs as more air can be consumed
tabetha
#32
PassionFord Post Troll
I have had some expience with zetec engines and have done a fair bit of research into big power ones.
One thing i have never heard of is blocks splitting. Where as a 205 block tends to go at the 400bhp mark i know of plenty of zetecs running past this with no block problems. My theory on this is that the zetec is more under square than the YB. It has a smaller bore (85mm vs 91mm) and i think this gives it a advantage at higher cylinder pressures, just as a smaller bore piece of pipe can carry more pressure than a larger bore piece of pipe.
Just one thing of many to consider.
One thing i have never heard of is blocks splitting. Where as a 205 block tends to go at the 400bhp mark i know of plenty of zetecs running past this with no block problems. My theory on this is that the zetec is more under square than the YB. It has a smaller bore (85mm vs 91mm) and i think this gives it a advantage at higher cylinder pressures, just as a smaller bore piece of pipe can carry more pressure than a larger bore piece of pipe.
Just one thing of many to consider.
#33
Originally Posted by Garage19
I have had some expience with zetec engines and have done a fair bit of research into big power ones.
we know 200 blocks can take monstorous amounts of power, but how much could a zetec cgi block take i wonder?
#34
PassionFord Post Whore!!
Originally Posted by Garage19
I have had some expience with zetec engines and have done a fair bit of research into big power ones.
One thing i have never heard of is blocks splitting. Where as a 205 block tends to go at the 400bhp mark i know of plenty of zetecs running past this with no block problems. My theory on this is that the zetec is more under square than the YB. It has a smaller bore (85mm vs 91mm) and i think this gives it a advantage at higher cylinder pressures, just as a smaller bore piece of pipe can carry more pressure than a larger bore piece of pipe.
Just one thing of many to consider.
One thing i have never heard of is blocks splitting. Where as a 205 block tends to go at the 400bhp mark i know of plenty of zetecs running past this with no block problems. My theory on this is that the zetec is more under square than the YB. It has a smaller bore (85mm vs 91mm) and i think this gives it a advantage at higher cylinder pressures, just as a smaller bore piece of pipe can carry more pressure than a larger bore piece of pipe.
Just one thing of many to consider.
My last cossie had 430 ish bhp- no cracked block.
Nutters runs around the 500 mark- std 2wd 205 block. No cracked block.
Anyway.....who's going to port and flow test your head???
#35
PassionFord Post Whore!!
How many Cossies out there with big power and use it,
How many ZT out there with big power and use it as most are fwd and cant use it ,
For me this should answer your question.
Mark
How many ZT out there with big power and use it as most are fwd and cant use it ,
For me this should answer your question.
Mark
#36
i think you've already made your own mind up.
for me once your at the "steel this steel that" stage rods and crank etc your virtually not in a yb,zt,4g63 engine anymore anyway. the block is just a carcase for all the "good stuff" the head flow of each engine could have been a issue had there been some significant flow problem but theres not.
if your a keen engine builder i think you will just come right back and build another if it fails. but even that is not R&D evidence that will rule the zt block out if it fails, for the cost of the internals you quoted i wouldn't hesitate. after all buliding it yourself is saving you half of what you would pay to have one built for you.
go for it.
for me once your at the "steel this steel that" stage rods and crank etc your virtually not in a yb,zt,4g63 engine anymore anyway. the block is just a carcase for all the "good stuff" the head flow of each engine could have been a issue had there been some significant flow problem but theres not.
if your a keen engine builder i think you will just come right back and build another if it fails. but even that is not R&D evidence that will rule the zt block out if it fails, for the cost of the internals you quoted i wouldn't hesitate. after all buliding it yourself is saving you half of what you would pay to have one built for you.
go for it.
#37
Football Cwazy
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Redditch, Worcestershire
Posts: 9,553
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
i agree...to me it sounds like you've made your mind up about using a zetec lump.
Personally i see no reason for it but hey it's your choice!
Consider though that the zetec engine is hardly 'new'...it's been around for years and years, yet i can't think of 1 engine producing a genuine and reliable 650bhp. that to me tells you that you are going to need to spend a lot of cash making sure yours is both strong enough and makes the power.
YB's have produced 650bhp for years now, and more recently they have even become more user friendly fitted in cars that could (if wanted) be used everyday...they don't break because of the power, but obviously they don't last all that long...but then show me another engine with that power that does.
you have also mentioned the EVO engines..why not just use one of them?? it's not a YB (which you seem dead against) and they can obviously be tuned to silly levels!
Personally i see no reason for it but hey it's your choice!
Consider though that the zetec engine is hardly 'new'...it's been around for years and years, yet i can't think of 1 engine producing a genuine and reliable 650bhp. that to me tells you that you are going to need to spend a lot of cash making sure yours is both strong enough and makes the power.
YB's have produced 650bhp for years now, and more recently they have even become more user friendly fitted in cars that could (if wanted) be used everyday...they don't break because of the power, but obviously they don't last all that long...but then show me another engine with that power that does.
you have also mentioned the EVO engines..why not just use one of them?? it's not a YB (which you seem dead against) and they can obviously be tuned to silly levels!
#40
DEYTUKURJERBS
Originally Posted by bud-weis
you have also mentioned the EVO engines..why not just use one of them?? it's not a YB (which you seem dead against) and they can obviously be tuned to silly levels!
can buy a dart block that can take 2500bhp for 1000quid new, or an alloy version for 2k that prob weighs les than the YB or Zetec.
can buy full steel internals that stroke it to nearly 6litres for under a grand that can happily take 700bhp and 7000rpm
and with that capacity you can have no lag at all and more torque than you can imagine.
and unless you building a drag car or competing in a competition where the others have the same (and no, i dont mean the PF internet saddo im "cooler" than you as ive got more power i cant use competition ), whyd you need that power? fun deffo dont increase with power or money spent.