anti-lag with a gt series turbo
08-09-2006, 06:41 AM
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anti-lag with a gt series turbo
question i thought you cant run anti-lag on a gt series turbo due to the thin shaft but in this months performance ford they are saying you can?
08-09-2006, 06:49 AM
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Personally, i never would.
I had a friend with a brand new GT28R, he ran anti-lag through it for less than 5000 miles and it wouldn't make more than 1 bar of boost.
When i was ordering my turbo and ringing round various places, this was one of the things i talked to them about and they all said not to.
Apparently the bearings in the roller bearing turbo's can't take the side load forces created with anti lag.
That and i imagine that getting maram 247 shafts in there could be tricky...
I had a friend with a brand new GT28R, he ran anti-lag through it for less than 5000 miles and it wouldn't make more than 1 bar of boost.
When i was ordering my turbo and ringing round various places, this was one of the things i talked to them about and they all said not to.
Apparently the bearings in the roller bearing turbo's can't take the side load forces created with anti lag.
That and i imagine that getting maram 247 shafts in there could be tricky...
08-09-2006, 03:00 PM
#5
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Originally Posted by simon170
Will, have a look at the end of that feature and see where the info comes from... wanna say thier wrong?
Im not sure ALL the info comes from there anyhow, didnt sound like it.
Some sounded slightly familiar from other places.
If not running a dumpvalve smashes GT turbos easy enough, id not hold up much hope of it surviving ALS.
They said it could easily take 1000degC which is RIGHT.
But its the shockloads smashing that shaft thats the issue, not the temp, the shaft never fucking melts or anything
08-09-2006, 03:39 PM
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I also said in the feature as long as it's MILD anti-lag, ie. you've not opened the throttlebody out it will be ok.
If you're after proper stuff then you've got to go for the Maram shaft option - that's a given.
I think Field have done a few more engines with GT series turbos and anti-lag than your good self Mr Stavros
I know you write for a living now, but they're actually doing it for a living and that's what they've found from experience…
If you're after proper stuff then you've got to go for the Maram shaft option - that's a given.
I think Field have done a few more engines with GT series turbos and anti-lag than your good self Mr Stavros
I know you write for a living now, but they're actually doing it for a living and that's what they've found from experience…
09-09-2006, 08:52 AM
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Originally Posted by simon170
Will, have a look at the end of that feature and see where the info comes from... wanna say thier wrong?
But - as you well know, Lee's old engine couldn't hold more than 1 bar of boost, he was running a Garrett GT series turbo and ALS.
Having researched it thoroughly as i was buying his engine and wanted to establish whether the fault was in the short block or the turbo i spoke to a number of well established and respected turbo specialists. One of the was even kind enough to send me the roller bearing cartridge out of a GT30 that had been anti lagged. When i took that cartridge into work and inspected it in our NDT lab i carried out the following tests:
Penetrant dye then inspection under a x25 UV microscope
X Ray
Checking spherical dimensions of the bearings
The casing itself showed a large amount of fret on the inside, the ball bearings had compressed slightly into oval dimensions and there was scoring on the outer race part of the bearing case.
Hence me concluding that the shaft load created by ALS posed a risk to the service life of the turbo.
I'm not saying that a 'mild' (i.e vacuum removal) ALS system will pop it straight away, but as i remember Lee's engine, he had done less than 5000 miles with a relatively mild system and his turbo can't hold more than 1 bar...
Therefore personally - i won't be using it
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09-09-2006, 09:16 AM
#8
Originally Posted by Big Will 85
Originally Posted by simon170
Will, have a look at the end of that feature and see where the info comes from... wanna say thier wrong?
But - as you well know, Lee's old engine couldn't hold more than 1 bar of boost, he was running a Garrett GT series turbo and ALS.
Having researched it thoroughly as i was buying his engine and wanted to establish whether the fault was in the short block or the turbo i spoke to a number of well established and respected turbo specialists. One of the was even kind enough to send me the roller bearing cartridge out of a GT30 that had been anti lagged. When i took that cartridge into work and inspected it in our NDT lab i carried out the following tests:
Penetrant dye then inspection under a x25 UV microscope
X Ray
Checking spherical dimensions of the bearings
The casing itself showed a large amount of fret on the inside, the ball bearings had compressed slightly into oval dimensions and there was scoring on the outer race part of the bearing case.
Hence me concluding that the shaft load created by ALS posed a risk to the service life of the turbo.
I'm not saying that a 'mild' (i.e vacuum removal) ALS system will pop it straight away, but as i remember Lee's engine, he had done less than 5000 miles with a relatively mild system and his turbo can't hold more than 1 bar...
Therefore personally - i won't be using it
end of chat !!
09-09-2006, 11:27 AM
#11
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My knowledge on GT turbo's is vague at best. Can you not used the improved wheels and housings with a traditional floating bearingm eleminating the weakness the roller cores seem to have?
09-09-2006, 11:43 AM
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Will - as you know, that turbo was sent off to be checked and was given a clean bill of health by the manufacturer. So it wasnt the turbo that meant it wouldnt hold the boost. It was either something to do with the engine or the boost control system.
Feel free to reply, but I'm not going to
You go with what you think and I'll go with what other people know from experience.
Have a nice day
p.s good luck with the rest of your project
Feel free to reply, but I'm not going to
You go with what you think and I'll go with what other people know from experience.Have a nice day
p.s good luck with the rest of your project
09-09-2006, 10:23 PM
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Originally Posted by simon170
Will - as you know, that turbo was sent off to be checked and was given a clean bill of health by the manufacturer.
As i said earlier Si, i don't want to fall out with you over something this petty - you've been a good mate for years.
All i was saying was that when i was doing my homework ,as it were, last year (without knowing the turbo had been back to the manufacturer) i was led to believe that anti lagging the turbo might have been the cause.
Out of curiosity i examined the bearing core from a GT series turbo that had been antilagged and found the damage i explained about earlier...
If you're at FFOC National Day next week - i'll get the burgers in and we'll have a chat fella
11-09-2006, 01:22 PM
#19
DEYTUKURJERBS
Originally Posted by JTECHSAFF
Originally Posted by cossiemanden
what about launch control, that´s also a bit like anti lag?
are about to set this up on my car in next week
are about to set this up on my car in next week
launch control is just a variable rev limiter, nowt like anti lag.
its been known to kill turbos with ceramic wheels.
should be fine tho
11-09-2006, 01:28 PM
#20
but launch control is only used when you launch, not every time you change gear.
most if not all cars have some sort of rev limiter at the max rpm point and there has never been an issue i know of where this has damaged a turbo? this is no more damaging than launch control is it?
most if not all cars have some sort of rev limiter at the max rpm point and there has never been an issue i know of where this has damaged a turbo? this is no more damaging than launch control is it?
11-09-2006, 01:31 PM
#21
DEYTUKURJERBS
your sitting on the launch control for 5secs+ to have a good effect of raising the boost, youd be a bit daft to sit on the rev limiter for that long.
and 99% of modern cars have a fuel cut rev limiter rather than an ign cut one too, which operates differently, kinder to the engine.
its still unlikly to do any damage, but its the same principle as ALS really.
and 99% of modern cars have a fuel cut rev limiter rather than an ign cut one too, which operates differently, kinder to the engine.
its still unlikly to do any damage, but its the same principle as ALS really.
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