World First - Variable Vane Turbo on production petrol car
07-06-2006, 07:56 PM
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World First - Variable Vane Turbo on production petrol car
One the new 911 according to EVO mag. 
Not a huge increase in power (about 5bhp irrc), but Torque is much better on a wider rev range.
Stu mentionned them in his Fast Ford article, suggesting it would be a while before they found their way in production petrol cars
I wonder if it's all mechanical, or, if there are electronics, etc... involved.
Not a huge increase in power (about 5bhp irrc), but Torque is much better on a wider rev range.
Stu mentionned them in his Fast Ford article, suggesting it would be a while before they found their way in production petrol cars
I wonder if it's all mechanical, or, if there are electronics, etc... involved.
07-06-2006, 08:02 PM
#2
PassionFord Post Whore!!
I'd suspect it'd be all mechanical with just the usual sensers/boost control actuaters.
Be interesting to see how they get on, all though no doubt they've done alot of testng and have it working spot on.
Be interesting to see how they get on, all though no doubt they've done alot of testng and have it working spot on.
07-06-2006, 08:05 PM
#3
DEYTUKURJERBS
Erm, like all the other shit these mags often come out with, they WRONG.
That award goes to the 1989 Chrysler/Dodge/Shelby CSX-Daytonas, Baron GTCs, and Shadows.
All used a 2.2 Turbo with a VNT T3.
That award goes to the 1989 Chrysler/Dodge/Shelby CSX-Daytonas, Baron GTCs, and Shadows.
All used a 2.2 Turbo with a VNT T3.
07-06-2006, 08:09 PM
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I thought the Pug T16 (Turbo'd version of the Mi16 engine) had a variable vane turbo on it - and that was out years ago as a production car? 
Could be wrong
Could be wrong
07-06-2006, 08:13 PM
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Originally Posted by James
prehaps the thread title should be changed to "World first - Variable Vane Turbo on production petrol car that isn't shit"
07-06-2006, 08:16 PM
#7
DEYTUKURJERBS
405 T16s are mint cars, as good if not better than a 4x4 Saff, jus mega rare so worth 15k instead of 1.5k
Should be called "1st car some company has managed to bullshit loads of people that its got a flashy new setup when it hasnt"
Should be called "1st car some company has managed to bullshit loads of people that its got a flashy new setup when it hasnt"
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07-06-2006, 09:28 PM
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Shelby/Chrysler ran a VNT25, not T3, but it had a very small comp side and no internal wastegate..
Pug T16 ran a VNT system, but was one single vane directing the exhaust flow directly at the turbine wheel, whereas the newer VNT systems are multivane.
I have a T28 sized VNT unit with a 59/43mm compressor side, 0.61 A/R housing, 54/45mm turbine in a 0.64 a/r housing, which is going on a Renault J7R Turbo engine fitted to one of my GTA's. Spec wise, the turbo should be good for around 280bhp, but with zero lag.
Pug T16 ran a VNT system, but was one single vane directing the exhaust flow directly at the turbine wheel, whereas the newer VNT systems are multivane.
I have a T28 sized VNT unit with a 59/43mm compressor side, 0.61 A/R housing, 54/45mm turbine in a 0.64 a/r housing, which is going on a Renault J7R Turbo engine fitted to one of my GTA's. Spec wise, the turbo should be good for around 280bhp, but with zero lag.
07-06-2006, 09:29 PM
#9
Re: World First - Variable Vane Turbo on production petrol c
Originally Posted by frog
One the new 911 according to EVO mag.
Not a huge increase in power (about 5bhp irrc), but Torque is much better on a wider rev range.
Stu mentionned them in his Fast Ford article, suggesting it would be a while before they found their way in production petrol cars
I wonder if it's all mechanical, or, if there are electronics, etc... involved.
Not a huge increase in power (about 5bhp irrc), but Torque is much better on a wider rev range.
Stu mentionned them in his Fast Ford article, suggesting it would be a while before they found their way in production petrol cars
I wonder if it's all mechanical, or, if there are electronics, etc... involved.
.The Pug 205 T16 Grp B car is the FIRST being made in 1985.... - so a
for Stevie for a change, as my maths makes that 4 years previous to the Yank piece of shit . Although not strictly variable vane, it had a tongue controlled by a second actuator that varied the port size of the turbo, thus increasing gas speed when it reduced the port size, thus spinning the turbo up sooner. The turbo's were hellishly expensive and the complete item had to be replaced when the tongue failed.
08-06-2006, 05:20 AM
#10
Re: World First - Variable Vane Turbo on production petrol c
Originally Posted by frog
Stu mentionned them in his Fast Ford article, suggesting it would be a while before they found their way in production petrol cars
The Alternator/Turboharger hybrid is next.. cool technology that eliminates lag.
08-06-2006, 06:10 AM
#12
Originally Posted by jaycos
Stu so could vnt be bolted on to a cossie and boost all the way to the limiter or is this to much to ask would be better off with a gt seires rollerbearing?
08-06-2006, 06:58 AM
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Re: World First - Variable Vane Turbo on production petrol c
Originally Posted by Mike Rainbird
The old car had 420bhp and the new one 476bhp, so your maths sucks .
.
08-06-2006, 07:20 AM
#15
Originally Posted by Stu @ M Developments
Originally Posted by jaycos
Stu so could vnt be bolted on to a cossie and boost all the way to the limiter or is this to much to ask would be better off with a gt seires rollerbearing?
08-06-2006, 08:17 AM
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Originally Posted by jaycos
Stu so could vnt be bolted on to a cossie and boost all the way to the limiter or is this to much to ask would be better off with a gt seires rollerbearing?
GT37VNTS are available from the States. You find them on Ebay for around $500. They are used on the Powerstroke Diesels, and have a 82/65mm compressor, and a 75mm turbine, with big non wastegated housings. The turbine housing inlet flange is non standard being a round V band type (so the manifold would need adapting), and the VNT mech is hydraulically controlled so the best option is a solonoid system run off standalone management.
This is a GT37V mounted to a 2.3 Ford Pinto SOHC. As you can see it is a big unit.. but a turbo good for 600bhp, that will spool up like a T3.
08-06-2006, 08:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Stu @ M Developments
Originally Posted by jaycos
Stu so could vnt be bolted on to a cossie and boost all the way to the limiter or is this to much to ask would be better off with a gt seires rollerbearing?
08-06-2006, 08:20 AM
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Originally Posted by frog
Originally Posted by Stu @ M Developments
Originally Posted by jaycos
Stu so could vnt be bolted on to a cossie and boost all the way to the limiter or is this to much to ask would be better off with a gt seires rollerbearing?
08-06-2006, 08:24 AM
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Originally Posted by DaveAVT
The turbo on the Porsche won't be large enough for what you want.
330bhp with the pick up of a T34 .48 and top end grunt of a T34 .62 would be a good starting point for me, but I appreciate we're starting with a larger capacity flat six on the porsche against a 2L four on the cossie.
08-06-2006, 08:25 AM
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Originally Posted by frog
Originally Posted by DaveAVT
The turbo on the Porsche won't be large enough for what you want.
330bhp with the pick up of a T34 .48 and top end grunt of a T34 .62 would be a good starting point for me, but I appreciate we're starting with a larger capacity flat six on the porsche against a 2L four on the cossie.
08-06-2006, 08:34 AM
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The car on this video is running a VNT28 like mine...
http://www.rtoc.org/library/fileroot...ZRWREDPGII.wmv
Its a 1.4 Renault 5 Turbo, running a Gordini cross flow head, VNT set at 22psi, and Autronic management..
It currently runs a 11.5 quarter with 120 terminals, and is currently leading the Northern hillclimb class in his series, Pro modified. His final trap time at Gurston Down is only under 2 seconds off the single seater Judd racers that also compete..
http://www.rtoc.org/library/fileroot...ZRWREDPGII.wmv
Its a 1.4 Renault 5 Turbo, running a Gordini cross flow head, VNT set at 22psi, and Autronic management..
It currently runs a 11.5 quarter with 120 terminals, and is currently leading the Northern hillclimb class in his series, Pro modified. His final trap time at Gurston Down is only under 2 seconds off the single seater Judd racers that also compete..
08-06-2006, 08:49 AM
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Originally Posted by frog
330bhp with the pick up of a T34 .48 and top end grunt of a T34 .62 would be a good starting point for me,
On a 2.0 you can have full boost by 1800rpm, even positive (say 6psi) at idle just by stabbing the throttle..
The problem is, when running a VNT, you don't want to tune the engine for power, more for torque, this is why it suits inefficient 8v engines. On a modern, cammed 16v, you my incur alot of low down compressor surge, so you can't make the best advantage of bringing the VNT mech in early.
08-06-2006, 08:55 AM
#26
Because the reason that the VNTs have only just become available on a petrol car is because of the high EGTs that the petrol cars run. It is only recently with the advances in material technoloy that turbo manufacturers have been able to build a turbo to withstand the high temps associated with a petrol engine. So surely fitting the diesel versions is going to cause problems? Also aren't the vane angles different for diesel engines, because of the completely different power characteristics of the two engines?
08-06-2006, 09:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Mike Rainbird
Because the reason that the VNTs have only just become available on a petrol car is because of the high EGTs that the petrol cars run. It is only recently with the advances in material technoloy that turbo manufacturers have been able to build a turbo to withstand the high temps associated with a petrol engine. So surely fitting the diesel versions is going to cause problems? Also aren't the vane angles different for diesel engines, because of the completely different power characteristics of the two engines?
I have 'full' Garrett Parts access, ie every part number for every component used, and all of the 'diesel' VNTs share all their parts with petrol turbos, ie housings, shafts, turbines, bearings etc.. The only part that is different is the VNT turbine housing and vane system. For instance, a VNT25 is a straight T25 CHRA and comp and turbine, just sat in a VNT turbine housing..
The turbine housings are still Nickel Iron, and the VNT vanes are titanium. They cant really upspec these materials. Every one says that it will fail with high EGTS, - so what, the only part that can fail, is the VNT mech stops working, so it will just act like a normal turbo with a fixed A/R turbine housing. So you take the turbine housing apart, clean up the mech, or replace and off you go again.
As for the vane angles, this can be completly set up by you the user, so that is not a problem at all. By adjusting the pre-load on the VNT actuator, or bleeding the feed, you can adjust what point the VNT system activates and up to what load..
08-06-2006, 09:03 AM
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You have to remember, the Renault 5 fraternity have been using VNTs for the last 2-3 years, and the only failures are normal bearing failures, simply because the turbo is under such more hard work than a normal turbo, as it is constanly boosting from the word go..
08-06-2006, 09:16 AM
#34
DEYTUKURJERBS
Big 
for AVT Dave
He knows shitloads more than we do about this, clearly
But yeah, there are HUGE VNT Turbos around, in the states you see VNT GT40s sold, etc etc.
for AVT Dave He knows shitloads more than we do about this, clearly
But yeah, there are HUGE VNT Turbos around, in the states you see VNT GT40s sold, etc etc.
08-06-2006, 09:19 AM
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If you want a good off the shelf unit, designed for turbo, then this is a good option..
Turbo technics VNT, 60 trim T3 compressor in 0.42 T3 housing, T28 inlet flange on .64 a/r turbine housing, T28 turbine wheel, Cosworth style 3 bolt 2.75 exhaust outlet and internal wastegate. Good option for small turbo Esc Cos..
Over a grand Ł though..
Turbo technics VNT, 60 trim T3 compressor in 0.42 T3 housing, T28 inlet flange on .64 a/r turbine housing, T28 turbine wheel, Cosworth style 3 bolt 2.75 exhaust outlet and internal wastegate. Good option for small turbo Esc Cos..
Over a grand Ł though..
08-06-2006, 09:20 AM
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So rather typically we've gone from something new and high-tech and exclusive to Porsches latest cars to someone actually having done something similar on a shonky old SOHC Pinto on the floor of their American workshop.
Interested in this Alternator/Turbocharger hybrid Stu has mentioned, any more gen?
Interested in this Alternator/Turbocharger hybrid Stu has mentioned, any more gen?
08-06-2006, 09:21 AM
#37
Originally Posted by DaveAVT
The turbine housings are still Nickel Iron, and the VNT vanes are titanium. They cant really upspec these materials. Every one says that it will fail with high EGTS, - so what, the only part that can fail, is the VNT mech stops working, so it will just act like a normal turbo with a fixed A/R turbine housing. So you take the turbine housing apart, clean up the mech, or replace and off you go again.
08-06-2006, 09:23 AM
#38
Jaycos, one thing that no one has mentioned to you yet, is that if you were trying to nail one onto the side of the YB you would have some serious issues with trying to map it as you dont have an airflow meter.
MAP sensor based systems arent going to cope with the VNT units at all well.
MAP sensor based systems arent going to cope with the VNT units at all well.
08-06-2006, 09:32 AM
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Originally Posted by chip-3door
Jaycos, one thing that no one has mentioned to you yet, is that if you were trying to nail one onto the side of the YB you would have some serious issues with trying to map it as you dont have an airflow meter.
MAP sensor based systems arent going to cope with the VNT units at all well.
MAP sensor based systems arent going to cope with the VNT units at all well.
Remember, you have ultimate control of the VNT mech, so you could do some mapping with the unit fully closed and fully opened just to get some base mapping down - treat it like a SC setup as you were...
08-06-2006, 09:33 AM
#40
DEYTUKURJERBS
DaveAVT
Is this what i think it is?
A Gordini headed R5GTT?
Cooool
So you think Autronic managed GT Turbos and stuff run AFMs? I dont..
Is this what i think it is?
A Gordini headed R5GTT?
Cooool
Originally Posted by chip-3door
Jaycos, one thing that no one has mentioned to you yet, is that if you were trying to nail one onto the side of the YB you would have some serious issues with trying to map it as you dont have an airflow meter.
MAP sensor based systems arent going to cope with the VNT units at all well.
MAP sensor based systems arent going to cope with the VNT units at all well.