rswoza

i have just put the st170 brake set up on my series one, however havent been able to bleed them all of the air seems to be out of the system but im stumped... any ideas? is there any presedure to installing brand new calipers?

off to ats to have the tracking done tomorrow any way so will ask them to try but having NO brakes bar the hand brake is going to be a fun driving there lol

james_birch

good luck!

sure u aint got a leak some where? did u fit new hoses?

S1MAN

I had loads of probs with my S1 when I changed to Cossie calipers and disc's, just couldn't get them to bleed properly. I ended up buying an Ezibleed from Halfords and that sorted it in 5 mins. Not expensive , may be worth a try.

Colin.

rswoza

hoses were goodridge and they are in good nick. might buy one of them ezzebleed kits as ats charge about Ł20- 30 to bleed the brakes

will try bleeding them again tomorrow morning then off to ats or halfords

joo5t

haha lol...

I also have the ST170 capilars and goodridge hoses...bleeding them was a horror !
I tried EVERYTHING...new brake lines, new mastercylinder, new brake booster...bleed it a thousand times...

All the air is out, but I still need to press the brake paddle to the bottom for the brakes to work.

Also...if still got drums at the rear...when braking hard..they lock up

adamS2RST

Cant wait to get my abs removed an st's fitted, looks like its going to be fun, have an eezibleed ready

L33 BYT

adamS2RST

Lee - a worth while purchase wouldn't you agree?

L33 BYT

Definatly

joo5t

I also used the eezibleed AND I also removed the ABS system..

enjoy,...

John Laverick

I used to use an Eezibleed but I don't bother now I prefer just pumpng the pedal with the nipple open

adamS2RST

Im also not running drums on the back either

joo5t

If I could do it all over again, I would just go for cosworth brakes !

rswoza

well finally sorted today, been a busy bunny over teh weekend.

new petrol tank
new fuel pump
new poly bushes fro the front
new baily header tank
new swirl pot
re routing hoses for the turbo water cooling which were looped on them selves.

any way, the brakes lol well what can i say they look brilliant realy fill the wheel up nicely however they didnt work.

the problem was from what we can gather not just one single problem but 3 smaller problems.

for those of you that havent done this set up and arnt confidant u can complete it DONT DO IT as nobady will help ie ATS, KWIK FIT, FORD ETC as they cant be bothered with going over someone elses work which i can see were there coming from.

my set up origainlly was standard calipers up front with ferrodo pads and grooved disc that the previous owner installed the wrong way around pmsl with a sierra 4x4 rear disc conversion with goodrige hoses all round.

the rear calipers i was led to belive were new 2 years ago however after inspection they turned out to be alot older and the sliders were sieved/ clogged up.

the brakes befor were to be honest not that bad and the only mk3 escort ive had in 9 years were i havent warped the discs, the pedal was pretty good however there was abit of travel but nothing excessive.

the main problem after instaling the st 170 set up was the brake pedal feel it basiclly went to the floor which isnt good lol.

we changed the master cylinder and servo for one that i took off a working car 2 months ago took it appart and made sure all the seals were ok etc then fitted it to the car, bleed the barkes with the old jam jar and transparrent pipe so we could se the bubbles coming out.

we pumped through 1 litre of fluid dot 5 and made sure all the air was out of the system but the pedal feel was stil crap but my mate whos a mechanic who helped me bleed the system said the pedal went crap when i tryed bleeding the rear calipers.

we then found that one of the pipes to the master cylinder was weeping fluid and then found that the end of the union was split so had to cut the end off and reflair a new joint.

we then took the rear caliper appart and inspected it the pads were in a pretty poor state and as i said the sliders were also sieved on the passenger side so we freed them up and took a trip to halford to get some new pads.

we the bleed the system again and the pedal feel is basiacly the same as what it was when it started befor i installed the st170 set up
i will let u all know what its like once the brakes are fully beded in.

adamS2RST

I'm thinking im going to get a similar problem, what braided hoses did you use for the st calipers? goodrige rst ones?

Luckily i'm taking mine to a master to get mine done, i'm confident I'll have some good brakes at the end of it

Let us know how you get on

joo5t

it all sounds very familiar...

adamS2RST: yes the brakes are good...they work fine, but you need to press the brake paddle to the floor for it to work...so the braking delay will be about a second orso...

I guess this cannot be avoided with the st170 setup, because the capilar cylinder is very big to fill up ?

Has anybody got a direct response from his st170 brakes ?

(my english translantion isnt that good...im dutch )

adamS2RST

There are loads of people with this setup, im sure they dont have that problem. I found the pedal would "travel" when I fitted my cossie rear dics, they seem to have improved over time believe it or not...and my front brakes are knackerd anyway so hoping the st's will give a better pedal

rswoza

yeh ive got goodridge braided hoses, the pedal feel is now as good as it was befor i did anything.

i have to do a few manovers to get my car out onto the road and this morning i didnt sh!t my self lol so they are alot better, there is a bit of travel but having mk3 esc for a long time now im used to this been in a couple of mates cars tonight to try and gauge my pedal feel and it isnt bad.

i havent done any hard braking yet as im waiting for the brakes to bed in as yo should do.

let me know how you get on with your brakes mate as joo5t said the crap pedal may be a side effect of the st170 set up and i cant remeber what the mk4 brake pedal felt like.

the only thing i havent changed is the brake compensator thingy lol the two cylinders at the back of the engine bay on the left hand side weather that will make a difference i dont know.

it seems that if you have any small problems with your braking system this set up amplifies it.

adam one other thing mate have you got a price for your brakes including fitting? and do u need any spacers?

adamS2RST

Mate, I completely understand what your saying about pedal feel. When me and Lee (RST_lee) were bleeding up my brakes after I fitted my cossie rear discs we couldnt get a decent pedal. I always thought there was too much travel, but my front standard setup is shit and pads nearly out But yea, couldnt remember what they "were" like before fitting rear discs, no doubt will be the same with the ST Kit.

That's good to hear the goodridge hoses fitted, I trial fitted mine, seemed ok, I was told by one person on here they dont fit....others say they are fine so got them anyway as I have braided on the back already.

I am getting my abs fully removed and the fronts fitted, dont need anything have it all mate, well may need a new pair of discs...mine are 2nd hand we'll see...

My other worry is locking the rears up, I still have brake compensators at the back of the car and no brake bias, will see how that goes most say not a prob with rear discs

rswoza

well good luck and lets us know how u get on

adamS2RST

Yea, cheers mate, will let u know how it goes

turbo.jon

bloody brakes still got problem with mine as above ford would not touch it as ive taken abs off they bleeded the system for me but still had peddle move when engine not running it failed its mot on this..changed master cylinder&servo just got rear drum to change as it was seized up had to knock crap out of it to free it up so its only thing left to try if not dodgy lines

joo5t

> rswoza:
> the only thing i havent changed is the brake compensator thingy lol the two
> cylinders at the back of the engine bay on the left hand side weather that will
> make a difference i dont know.

I have replaced them with new ones !

> turbo.jon:
> so its only thing left to try if not dodgy lines

I have replaced them with early escort ones !


Again I notice more people with the same problem...
adamS2RST said a lot of people have the ST170 setup with no problems,
but I never heard that this setup starts breaking immediately when hitting te
brake paddle just a little bit (like brakes should). Perhaps people just like
the big 300mm's with big capilars that much that they never talk about the actuall breaking power..?

adamS2RST

I wont be getting mine done now for a couple of weeks. Will let you know how it all goes then

CarlRsT

mine seem to be ok??? Will see on the mot

ON-UJAH

Obviously 4-pots or any other brakes with larger pistons in the caliper than standard will increase brake travel. Putting 2 relatively large pots on the back will increase travel further compared to the tiny drum cylinders. Add to this the crappy servo found on Escorts, and it's not surprising that you need to stamp them to get real brake bite. However, once you get used to it, you'll see that a Cossie style setup really is very good (especially with warmed up race pads) - I've had many laps of the ring, and never any sign of fading or poor performance. I'll never out brake a real race car, but compared to your average daily driver it's lots better.

Rear Cossie setup without bias valve doesnt lock up under normal to controlled heavy braking. However, 'taking the piss' braking will lock up the back wheels in the wet. And as we all know, taking the piss braking generally only occurs in situations where you really do want to stop in a hurry no matter how unstable the car becomes (unlike controlled heavy braking like on track) - so decide yourself if you feel it's OK to not spend the extra on the bias valve and laying new lines.

How could you ever change from an Eezibleed to the pedal and jamjar method?? Eezibleed works wonders on difficult systems, not to mention the speed and effeciency of using it - no mess and no wasted fluid. Worth every penny!

adamS2RST

ON,

Nice little essay there

Interesting really, and helpful to know.

Oh and.....

I agree on that! although the no mess bit? well speak to RST_lee about that hehe joking mate

adamS2RST

Right, I have had my ST170 kit fitted this weekend, had my ABS removed too. I too have a bit of "pedal travel" It was quite bad after we first bled the brakes up, dont get me wrong the brakes are great when they bite but the initial bit of travel is there when you brake. This was on Saturday, since then my pedal has improved slightly and after the 50 mile drive home it has got better (steady braking as the pads have a couple hundred miles to bed in yet)

I think the problem is as mentioned above by ON-UJAH Which is exactly what Gadget said to me (who fitted the kit) as there is a larger piston for fluid to fill. I'm tempted to get a new master cyl / resi as I fear mine may have a slight problem...i'm still thinking about that now, I think my brakes are back to as good as they were before fitting the ST kit and ABS removal, there is still travel but not much in comparison to any normal escort (MY pedal certainly does'nt go no where near the floor.)

Combi_Chris

speaking of brakes, ive the st170`s on mine too, they seem fine to me, but i have brackets to convert the rears , what seems to be the best set up for rears as far as disks and cilipers go ?

joo5t

adamS2RST:

That sounds better then my brakes. Isnt there a lager mastercylinder upgrade available that will push more fluid into the lines ? That sould solve the problem.

Combi Chris:

I want todo a rear brake conversion too, but that will mean the brake travel will increase further ??

Combi_Chris

ok , im confused , neither me or adam have said those words , s this some kinda puzzle,

ON-UJAH

In the old days, a race driver would pump the pedal while approaching the corner. This primes up the system - any space between pad and caliper/rotor is removed, and the fluid is already filled into behind the piston under slight pressure. Then, when the driver goes to brake, the pedal is firm and responsive. If your brakes are in good working order, you should also notice this on your Escort. If even after pumping there is too mush travel and the pedal is soft, there is probably air in the system.

Who makes Escort master cylinders? Girling? Maybe the manufacturer could suggest a larger master cylinder that would fit.

I run S2 calipers on the front, and 4x4 Cossie setup on the rear - my pedal is fine. That is with Orion master cylinder. The rear bias adjusters don't help - they also increase pedal travel. They are in the process of being removed, and a F/R split with bias valve is going in instead, using stainless lines.

I'll let you know how I get on.

adamS2RST

Sounds cool, let us know

joo5t

could you explain to me what this is ? do you have a picture ?

thanks !

ON-UJAH

The Escort has a diagonally split system - front left and rear right brakes are on the same line.

This way, if one line leaks or breaks, you still have breaking on one front and one rear brake, which is safer.

However, this makes it harder to adjust the braking bias between front and back wheels.

So what I'm going to do, is run a line to the back for the rear brakes. In this line there will be a Wilwood brake bias valve (next to the handbrake) - this allows you to adjust the pressure getting to the rear calipers. There wont be anything else in the rear line - nothing at all. At the back the line will T off to left and right calipers.

The front I'm going to think about once I have the old stuff out - possibly keep the ABS, possibly change master cylinder and resevoir and drop the ABS...maybe one line for left, one to right, or just T off to them both from one line. I'll see how it pans out logistically.

Anyway, the plan is, to be able to control rear braking from within the car, and have no more brake sapping components like the rear arm bias adjusters. Also the shorter overall length of the system should increase brake feel.

Finding time to start seems to be my biggest problem

adamS2RST

Sounds like fun! not! Atleast u know what your doing I took my car out for another spin last night, brakes are awesome imo, nearly stops on its nose now, did a brake test from 70 to 0 with "taking the piss braking"

Stopped dead straight, no locking of wheels no back end coming round, really was smooth and precise.

I'm still debating weather or not to change my master cylinder and resi or just get used to the initial bit of travel

ON-UJAH

Its always fun testing the brakes - everyone should do it, under all conditions. That way you know what to expect if you ever need to do it again. Just make sure there's nobody about and that there is enough space, you never know what might happen. Sounds good if yours braked in a nice straight line - mine would always get a bit unsettled, I think due to differences in breaking forces at the rear.

I've also bought a MEF rear kit, to try to tighten up the rear and get perfect geometry, which could also be a factor in unsettling the car under heavy braking.

You soon get used to the extra travel, so if your happy I'd stick with what you have. I'm only doing my new lines because the car is also getting the MEF kit, a ZVH, and coilovers at the same time - so it was a good opportunity to take it off the road, and do everything at once (including the rust )

Basically want to do what you've done to yours, but I do know there will be some major rust underneath the rear seat so I'm dreading it. Half of me wants to just check the bits in and leave the rust sprreading, then one day get a Mk1 Orion to restore properly with the good parts - the other has an attachment to this car from all the hours driving and situations it has got me out of, and wants to keep it going for another 15 years at least.

It must be a Ford thing - it seems there's enough of us in the same boat

adamS2RST

Yep, made sure I was on a completly "private" road when performaning my brake test officer Yea, made sure no one was about, was quite expecting to be facing the other way or something so it was a middle of the carriage way job

Next on my list of "upgrades" is the suspension. I'm seriously considering some coilovers, but don't realy know what the advantages of them are In all honesty I thought they were mainly for being able to drop the car lower Dunno, but one of my shocks is goosed and makes the ride a little "shaky" shall we say

Anyway...back to brakes for anyone else that wan't to contribute

rswoza

ive done near on 1000 miles now and alls well, i reckon like u said adam i have a pedal that was the same as before i did any work to the brakes at all. i have bought a new master cylinder too mate however it may go back as i think its ok.

brake testing was funny lol, it seems as though under heavy, shit your pants braking that the rears lock up as it steps out. progressive braking is very good though.

adamS2RST

Hi mate,

Glad to hear you have a decent pedal again How much you after for the cylinder? I may be interested.

Do you still run the load compensators on the rear? and what setup u have on the rear? discs? or drums still?

Mine seems great, I still run load compensators and currently have no bias valve