Red_bull

Hello guys,

Since i finished my project (see signature) i have a problem with the oil pressure of the car. Cold it goes to 4.5 bar and when warm the standard oil light flickers a bit. I have a VDO sensor next to it so i'm pretty sure the problem is really there as it gives low readings too (0.5 bar on idle)

I am running a new high pressure pump from burton after 2 different oil pumps,but still didn't solve the problem.

Today at work a colleague asked me after the oil filter i was using. He said that the filters have a kinda oil pressure regulation in themselfs by the restriction in the filter. So if i'm maybe running a wrong filter this could cause the above problem? Anybody had this problem before?

Here on this website the upper is descriped too: http://www.freeasestudyguides.com/oi...-function.html

Also i could be cause by a clogged filter, but as i ran it since new with this problem i don't think this could be the issue. I first would think i have a complete wrong filter




Besides this i was triggerd that anything can be clogged before my oil pressure measurement point. Which is on the turbo supply. I am wondering if anybody has a diagram of the oil flow through the CVH engine.

I hope i can solve my problem and since today i know that many of the oil pressure problems can be caused by wrong filters too! Maybe interesting for people with low pressures. Buy a new oil filter at Ford to make sure you got 100% the right one!

haz87

I've used a huge manner of filters on CVH's, all makes, sizes, shapes and ive never registered more than a 2psi difference across them on any given engine.

I'm going to say its poor bearing tolerances/fooked bearing/crank from experience tbh. What weight oil are you using out of interest?

Red_bull

10-W40

Problem is that everything is new! Also the engine is comming from a person who is doing race engines, so i expect his measurements to be ok. I build it up myself, but all ordering and measuring is done there. Only thing that i want to check is the axial bearings are in place.

Also the engine doesn't sound bad or anything. But maybe there is something else in my oil route clogged. That is why i'm looking for the routing inside of the engine

haz87

If the engine has come from someone you have faith in, then you should have the same faith that they cleaned the oil galleries tbh.

Anywho theres only a few things that can cause low oil pressure.
Oil Pump (we know its not this if you've tried 3)
Oil Filter (Unlikely as its running a good cold pressure + you've had more than one)
Oil (10w40 is not neccesarily the best for an RST (dont know your spec) but its good enough for good pressures)
Cam Bearing Tollerances (New cam? I have had a cam that was badly ground and was essentially undersized and so reduced oil pressure to nothing tho this was apparent from cold)
Gallery Blocked (Depending where it was blocked you'd either get V.high cold pressures or equally low cold pressures so this is why i think your galleries are probably ok)
Con rod bearings (Whip the sump off, check them physically - it'll take less than an hour)

the_frozen_one

iTrader: (1)

What oil you using, brand? Premium? Budget?

Was the sensor renewed? They can fail and flicker seen it on a few cars.

If by axial bearings you mean thrust washers, lever the crank pulley in and out, if it moves less than 5mm they are there.

haz87

He's using a VDO gauge as well which clarifies the 0.5bar

the_frozen_one

iTrader: (1)

Ahh yes, I should learn to read.

I think it's the oil quality then.

Danster76

iTrader: (2)

Interested to hear if you get to the bottom of this. Good luck

Rogeyboy

iTrader: (2)

Sounds engine bearing related to me...
I doubt if this is down to the engine oil or indeed the filter.
The guy who measured you bearings/clearances up may have measured them right but the bearing could've been packaged wrong so you've ended up with too big a clearance reducing pressure!?

Red_bull

I'm not running a budget oil imo. It's Kroon oil. but i will need to check it. It's a full syntetic 10 or 15-W40

If i have a wrong size bearings wouldn't i hear this?

If i whip out my conrod bearings. How can i see if they are too big. It's .25 then. Also if i take these off i need to replace my conroad bolts from arp. So bit expensive. Better first check my cam. But same here how can i spot the problems. It sounds impossible...

I can het a micrometer and magnet that isn't the problem

haz87

Measure the cam against the ford specified tolerances (in haynes) using the micrometer.

luxembourgrst

look there https://passionford.com/forum/ford-e...a-rebuild.html

Red_bull

Any description how to measure tolerances? I will have a check for new oil and oil filter too.

Any oil recomondations?

the_frozen_one

iTrader: (1)

Easiest way at home is use plastigauge.

Use ford xr plus 10-40 if you can get it, or castrol 10-40 (castrol oil is ford oil)

Red_bull

I got my filter from Ford and will go for new oil tomz. I look the recommended oil topic, but i see a lot of you are going higher to 50 and 60.

Does the thick oil not give problems on oil flow through turbo? like 20-50 sound a bit on the high side mainly for cold on 20?

I hope somebody can answer before tomz

Besides that if i whip the sump off and check my conrod bearing physically how can i see if the problem is in this? The bearing will have wear, but when do i know if it is too muc

Karlos G

iTrader: (4)

I have replied in the Recommended Oil thread.

Red_bull

Thanks for the reply!

Think i will take off my sump tomz when the engine is drained anyway and take of my main bearings to give them a look! Also will check my turbo if it doesn't have damage yet of the driving i did so far!

Also will go for a new oil and oil filter. I'm afraid it's not gonna change the problem yet, but the one who keeps fighting will win.

Red_bull

Guys i'm off to the car soon. I was wondering for another thing that might be a issue. I'm running a hybride turbo which came of a other rs turbo chassis, but i believe with a different engine zvh? Its almost 4 years ago.

Can the turbo have a way too big flow through its housing causing a pressure loss at my sensors?

Karlos G

iTrader: (4)

No mate it can't, the turbo will not effect your oil pressure.

Red_bull

ok i have quite a lot new information, but i will try to keep it short

First as a reaction to Karlos. If a turbo is fooked then it will cause excessive oil to flow through isn't it. This high flow will cause a pressure drop on the oil inlet isn't it? Can't a different housing then cause the same? Or is oil flow over all turbo's quite the same?

Anyway i checked my turbo too and the play in the schaft seems resenable to me.

i know my old oil for sure now it was: Kroon Emperol 10w40 half-Synthetic, altho the can says synthetic motor oil

My new oil is Motorrex 10W50 it's for motorbikes, but couldn't find the 10w50 else without ordering from internet

I have a oil filter from the Ford dealership

My thrust washers are in place! This is one thing i saw as a possible reason.

Two other idea's to mention came up in my mind today:
- I have almost always alot of water in my carter ventilation. I guess this is normal and would in no way relate to my oil pressure problem right?

- Can a bad earth wiring from the engine to the chassis cause strange readings from both sensors that i tried? It would be very strange only with warm engine then, but i'm just trying to make sure i'm finding the problem in the end

Now i'm gonna dump a few photo's so you guys can take a look over what i saw. I'm not very well know with engine wear, so i hope you could give ur opinion. To me the bearings look in quite an ok shape if you take in mind that i did 4000!km with low oil pressure in the meanwhile

You can see that thrust washers are both in place. Also i didn't find any play on my crankshaft!
http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/6716/img2919lz.jpg

One of the bearings
http://img856.imageshack.us/img856/223/img2914sh.jpg

Other side of it
http://img694.imageshack.us/img694/6335/img2915x.jpg

Other bearing
http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/2609/img2920x.jpg

Other side of it
http://img708.imageshack.us/img708/5539/img2921p.jpg

All bearings look quite the same! They have some wear, but with your finger they feel smooth.

Anyway as i had my sump of i saw this part (see pic below) and it's one of the parts that my engine builder didn't have. This part is it lubricated? No right? I asume that the main bearing takes all the forces so this part doesn't need lubrication right?
http://img705.imageshack.us/img705/184/img2930x.jpg

Crankshaft it self looks also fine to me, but what are your opinions?
http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/9672/img2935lt.jpg

Here you can see it took some wear, but this can't be felt by finger!
http://img507.imageshack.us/img507/4973/img2936f.jpg

This is my old filter that i took off. Anybody else that runs this baby?
http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/6129/img2940f.jpg





Ok looks like in the comming week or in the next weekend i will continue to search for the problem. I left all bearings of atm, cause i wanted to have some other opinions if there was anything else to check without taking the whole oil pump and gearbox off.

Anyway i can reuse the bolts for main caps right?

I wasn't planning on removing my big end bearings, because i'm running arp bolts and don't want to wast another 100 euro on them. Anybody that reused arp bolts for conrods with set up over 200 bhp?



Really hope you guys (and ladies if around ofc) can help think with me. I really need to solve this problem, so i can enjoy it for long runs.

till now i couldn't find it and thought fuck it i will run it till it dies, but now i have new energy to search for it after driving it for 4000 km's. Keep in mind that i did more then 3 year rebuild of the whole car!

haz87

On my phone so cba to check photos but if you've checked mains and not big ends then you've wasted your time. Big ends are the ones that you need to look at but then I said that 2 weeks ago. They are far more likely to fail/spin/tell you condition. I've written off numerous rod bearings and my mains have always looked great.

Karlos G

iTrader: (4)

If your big ends look anything like this one of your mains does then that's your problem!

Red_bull

really this is enough already? ffs i really wanted that the engine could stay in!

But the bearing really doesn't look like this. I will shoot a photo of the bearing matching with this part of the crankshaft

but the engine i running low oil pressure from the beginning. Maybe one of the first oil pump fucked up my engine then. Dunno when i installed the new oil pump of burton

AstoN_B

iTrader: (1)

You might be able to save it yet. Check the big end bearings.

It's possible you might have to remove the crank and have it polished, but you might also need to have it ground and go for bigger bearings.

Unfortunate but checking bearing clearance is a must, if you know that's good when the engine is built you can pinpoint possible problems much easier.

Good luck!

Red_bull

ok looks like i will take out my crankshaft to let it be grinded and place new bearings. I will also open up my conrodbearings then. Will go and check this then with plastigage before installing new again.

A other thing i didn't mention yet is the following:
My car gave blue smoke sometimes when rolling out (going of throttle and decellerations)

Other questions i still have:
Two other idea's to mention came up in my mind today:
- I have almost always alot of water in my carter ventilation. I guess this is normal and would in no way relate to my oil pressure problem right?

- Can a bad earth wiring from the engine to the chassis cause strange readings from both sensors that i tried? It would be very strange only with warm engine then, but i'm just trying to make sure i'm finding the problem in the end


One last question is my cars manual is at my parents (so is the car) does anybody have tollerances for the crankshaft main and conrod bearings so i buy the right plasticgauge for it?

Cheers

haz87

Water and earths don't cause cranks to be scored like that so as hard as it is, accept that we've given you the right pointers and advise from the start. Whip the rod bearings off and the proof will be there. Looking for 'easy' fixes aren't going to be there with this one. We've all been here at some point

Red_bull

No it's not like that don't understand me wrong, but i just want to make 100% sure all other things are reliable so i'm writing down the right info's

anybody that has tollerances for conrod and crankshaft for me? Then i can order my plastigauge already!

Canada1

I looked back at your project thread. I am not sure if the engine block was completely cleaned before installing pistons, crankshaft and rods?
I have seen many times when an engine is "rebuilt" the engine block has not been cleaned and oil passage debris scores the brand new bearings and crankshaft.
All oil passages must be scrubbed clean - crankshaft passages, cylinder head oil passages, and engine oil passages. All of the oil plugs need to be removed to scrub clean the block oil passages - long brushed are used for this.
http://www.gunson.co.uk/item.aspx?cat=668&item=5132
The brushes are not expensive.

Replacing just the bearings without cleaning oil passages will result in scored crankshaft and bearings again.

Cheers

Red_bull

My whole bottom end had a chemical bath at the engine builder. I asume that is quite the same isn't it? I also asume it is checked and cleaned, but i'm not 100% sure. If new bearings don't show big pressure increase the camshaft will go out if that doesn't give me anything the engine goes out and will be checked completly.

I started the engine as a 17 year old i'm 25 now and got a lot more engine knownledge. Still with bearing wear and so i have no experience and i always like hearing many opinions!

Canada1

The chemical bath does not mean oil gallery plugs were removed and passages cleaned.
many shoddy shops skip cleaning all oil passages when chemical bath is done. Check with your engine builder - the crankshaft looks like it has seen much debris. It would be a shame to re-grind the crank, put in new bearings and have the same debris damage the new surfaces.

I always clean blocks that come back from the machine shop very carefully. This is a critical step.

Red_bull

ok the brushes are ordered, so i can give all the gallarys a clean!

How to get the plugs out and in? they are pressed into the bottom end isn't it?

Canada1

The oil passage plugs are on the front of the block and the back of the block.
There is one on the front and two on the rear of the block.

Front plug visible (just above oil pump)


rear plugs (#4) See attached link shows the 2 rear plugs.

http://eucatparts.com/?action=cat_fo...&s_id_model=88

You will need to remove the block from the car to get access to the plugs and clean out.
All passages need cleaning - including the passages to the main bearings.

Cheers

Red_bull

So another update:

I went to the car with my plastigage to measure how much my crankshaft would be off.

Next came out of my measurements:

Main bearing running clearance according to manual = 0.0011-0.0058mm
Main 1 = aprox 0.0076
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/543/img3041b.jpg

Main 2 = aprox 0.0050
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/824/img3042rs.jpg

Main 3 = aprox 0.0076
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/835/img3043yn.jpg

Main 4 = aprox 0.0050
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/59/img3046br.jpg

Main 5 = aprox 0.0050
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/29/img3047r.jpg

So yeah they are above tollerance, but is enough to drop under 0,5 bar on idle? Pressure not reacting quick on rpm changes?

Besides that i felt all the parts of the crankshaft again and also let another mechanic look at it and his words where that is wasn't as bad at all. There is nothing to be felt with finger. Only when u use your nail you can feel unbalance in it.

Till this the main bearing part
--------

Thrust bearings where in and came out when i turned the crankshaft, so took them out too. They are standards and i took them out too quick as i didn't see which way round they where in. If they where wrong way round can this cause oil pressure loss?

The incription on the inside and oil channels on the outside it should be right?

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/138/img3049y.jpg
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/855/img3050pu.jpg

--------
Conrods and big end story

Took them out too now. They look a lot like the crankshaft onces
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/832/img3048s.jpg/

As you can see here tollerances are all quite the same
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/856/img3063z.jpg/

and all are aprox 0.0050 where 0.0060 is allowed
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/571/img3064c.jpg/

One thing caught my eye. One of the bigends on the conrod had a strange where and more then the others. It's the one far from the oil pump cyl http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/838/img3058y.jpg/

The crankshaft looks pretty good on the big end parts
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/6/img3052sz.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/842/img3051xi.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/689/img3053su.jpg/

There is another thing that i think is strange, but i'm pretty sure it's ok else tollerance would be more off.

It almost looks like these aren't a set that should be together. More people have stock onces looking like this
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/15/img3059ea.jpg/

These match much better
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/201/img3057k.jpg/







So long story short i have a few ways to go
- Place all new bearings measure tolerances if they are fine build up and try it again
- Take out crankshaft; Get crankshaft polised go from std mains to 0.25mm mains with much lower tolerances, build up again with all new bearings. Plus side is that i can clean the oil galeries too. Only haven't recieved my tools for it yet
- Take out crankshaft Get crankshaft polised go from std mains to 0.25 go for big end from 0.25 to 0.5 bearings


The doubt is between number one and three. But i'm pretty sure three is gonna be mine and i start it on saterday.

I really would love to hear all your comments on the photo's as i lack in experience on the bearings and wear on them in combination with the effects

botters

iTrader: (2)

if you can feel the marks with your fingernail then you will need to grind the crank, you could polish it but it is diffficult to get a perfectley even surface

Red_bull

In the upper i wrote polish, but ment grind ofc else we wouldn't get to other size bearings. The word didn't came up as i'm dutch not english haha

But thanks for your view on it!

botters

iTrader: (2)

no problem, hope you get it sorted as its easy to lose faith but it will be worth it in the end

the_frozen_one

iTrader: (1)

Thrust washers are installed correctly. All bearings need replacing. The strange mark on the big end is what we'd call a scuff or polish mark. Usually caused by a high spot on the bearing or low oil pressure.

Replace/regrind the crank and bearing. Check clearances and try again. I have a standard crank and bearings if that's any good?

Canada1

Your main bearing clearance at 0.076 is on the very loose side for bearing clearance.
Plastigauge is OK to use in a pinch, but not very accurate.

I would take the block, crank, rods, and pistons to a reputable shop for assembly.
You do not have the experience and measurement tools to do it correctly.
This is not an insult at all. You need someone with the correct tools (micrometers and bore gauges) to properly assemble the block.

AstoN_B

iTrader: (1)

What other methods of measuring the bearings can home builders use?

Im not sure of much else which can put a number on the clearance. You can mic the journals but plastigauge seems to be the best method of measurement for the DIY'ers.

Red_bull

So decided is that i will take my crankshaft out to let them grind it all to a extra oversize. All new bearings in. I will clean my oil channels (recieved my cleaning set today) and then put everything together again!

@Canada1 I understand what you mean all the right tools would make it easier to do a accurate job. For now it's for me about the fun in building my own stuff and gaining experience. I just turned and haven't lost fun in building and i have many years to go i guess. So this experience of making trouble and solve i just need it, i enjoy it and i'm gonna win it in the end and get my engine with oil pressure haha! Hope i didn't shout to hard now haha!

Tomorrow i take everything off so the crankshaft can go to the shop next week and then next weekend building time again i hope.

In the meanwhile i will open up my oil pump and have a look over it. Hopefully that one still looks completly fresh!