jessie_rs

ive been looking for custom inlet and exhaust manifold for my cvh. i made the mistake of selling my motorsport inlet from mk's car. i always remember an article in one of the old performance fords at jamsport there inlet and exhaust manifold with custom charge pipe coming in at just over £1500. questions i have are:

where to get inlets and exhaust manifolds and how much should i be paying?

also another question i have about inlet manifolds is what happens with brake servo and all little odd pipes running into the inlet?

exhaust manifold do you have to run a custom downpipe?

current spec
.5 overbore
low comp pistons
stage 3 big valve head
newman cam/solid lifters
cosworth management level 8 with anti lag
t34 turbo
green 803s
live mapped motorsport developments 20psi boost

s1cab

iTrader: (1)

pm 'crazycage' on here. i have just bought one of his exhaust manifolds (very good price and great quality) heres a pic -

project rs

these are some of the inlets and ex manifolds i've had of crazycage the middle one is the same as jamsports and the bottom one is his ex mani with a t34 on like yours

duncans90

Have a chat with Simon at Sitech Racing, he should be able to sort you out something sweet.

Versus_Creations

iTrader: (1)

No offence lads but the inlet manifolds above are terrible.

Be better off with the std MFi type with throttle body inbetween 2&3 inlet tracks compared to one with a throttle body at one end.

Cant comment on the exhaust manifold as i have never tested that one. However the std one again is good for 350bhp tested and proven! So unless your getting more than that i dont really see the value for money point in changing, if i did it wouldnt be changing for one that hasnt been tested on a flow bench, looks like an expensive bit of bent and welded metal with a crude cut plate to mount to the head.

Dont wanna sound like im knocking all these items but its for reasons.

rsmark86

iTrader: (3)

jamsport still sell them just need to pick up the phone

Rick

Really? As i have performed CFD on them and that would seem to disagree with your comments.

Rick

Versus_Creations

iTrader: (1)

Yes really. You testing anything does not make it gospel. Just hear say. You dont have the £££££££££'s worth of equipment needed to test this sort of item properly so your testing means nothing to me.... What does count is the amount of engines i have worked on with random manifolds made from bent bits of alloy and welded together with chemical metal. The results, graphs, and engine damage proves this.

Cly 1,2 and even 3 will suffer with loss of flow from a throttle at one end unless it has been properly designed with CAD software to take into account all the variables. To be able to do all that 100% would take more than just a "random" putting a couple of milk bottles on a bench testing some random welded bit of metal.


Seriously.... Do you really need to argue after looking at this.. A bent bit of alloy welded on to a manifold. and you want people to pay lots of money for this?






There is nothing there that would make anything good happen to an engine.

sas

Straight in with the knife, as normal!

Its no wonder peole say the things they do about you???

Simon.

Versus_Creations

iTrader: (1)

Fact is that im a straight talker and i will tell it how it is. If you dont like that "tuffty" $h!t.

The people who will comment as you say will have never of met me in person, had work done by me or spoken to me directly. The ones that do... join my site (the whole 4000 members) and are more than happy with all the work i have done in the last 15 years.


Simon when i first met you at rockingham i told you that using a chargecooler was lame, you deided to have an argument for about 10 mins, only to..... In the end agree and remove the chargecooler.

The same about the ZVH engine that i said was pointless building all them years ago....


If you would rather be one of the companys that trys selling bent bits of alloy at silly prices telling people it will add millions of BHP then fine. In the end it will bite you up the arse.

Id rather be straight to the point and not waste time beating round the bush. This is why my company is doing so well with a great following and reputation of not messing people around and charging the right money for the work done without taking the piss and trying to live a luxury life style with loads of people working for me and loads of over heads etc.


Now less of the "this is what people think" comments as it makes you look silly as my work speaks for itself.

Rogeyboy

iTrader: (2)

I must admit i know next to nothing about inlets but that 1 welded to the EFi manifold looks abit mickey mouse!
With regard to the cyls 12&3 starvation how does the NA MFi CVH inlet compare? That has the TB at 1 end rather than in the middle, I see alot of ppl use this on their Turbo engines, is it an upgrade...?

Versus_Creations

iTrader: (1)

Its not an upgrade!

If it was that great then the likes of Janspeed, Turbotechnics etc etc. Would of given Ford a good feedback on them back in 1982 so that ford could use their existing manifolds for turbo appliation.

Because they wasnt the best they re-designed the whole manifold setup to have a central throttle body which is where the ERST manifold came from. Then the later EFi again with a central throttle. This is the best for equal amount of flow rates to eah port.

DazC

iTrader: (1)

Looking at the example plenums in the thread, surely you mean the other way around Jano?

The positioning of the throttle at the servo end of the plenum and high velocity air will fill up the far end of the plenum first, making the cylinders furthest away from the throttle leanest and the nearest cylinder the richest.

morph

iTrader: (1)

Is it worth having the standard inlet ported, flowed, and the tb and butterfly aswell? Seen a few on ebay was not sure if it was of ant benefit?

essexRSTSouthend

Ive also been looking into bigger throttle body and having my mfi matched to my big valve head.anyone who can do this and it worth it..

Canada1

Jano is quite correct.

Proper design and testing is a must. Center inlet unmodified is your best bet for even air and fuel distribution. However, a side inlet may work if modified and tested properly. Not just guessing about design.

Take a look at this thread - inlet design for L6 Nissan:

http://forums.hybridz.org/index.php/...fd+%2Bmanifold

A few pics:





Better design: Money is obviously no object here









All I can say is WOW!!!

project rs

jano calm down i only put them up as examples of things i'd had done in the r&d stages of the process and the one you reposted is the one jamsport sell and i can see your point but as the whole system is so pressurised then surely as soon as there is any gap in the system (valve opening) then the air will try to escape through it surely physics tells us that and the square one in my other picture has trumpets in that to aid air distribution as crazycage works somewere were he does have access to some nice equipement and has tested a few of the inlets but the next one we are going to try is different again and the process will go on till we get something were happy with and would gladly give you one to try and see what you think of it and to do some back to back testing with as were all here to try and build good reliable motors best we can and the exhaust manifold is capable of shifting a lot of air as we've tested them to 400bhp so far and due to the slightly different header design seem to help spool up times a little don't get me wrong i'm not saying you'll gain 50 horses or get your t34 on full song by 2000 revs but every little helps i'll gladly take any advice you've got to give as you have more cars to try stuff on were as i have only my own to try on and some stuff works and some doesn't so i try it and see and go from there

crazycage

the top inlet pic that project rs posted up is fitted to a 1600cvh the puts out over 300hp ..... not bad for a inlet that jano says is bad and wont flow to 3 cylinders .

the middle inlet is a jamspot inlet i just welded it up they supplyed all the parts.

i dont try to sell any parts, inlets, exhaust manifolds, hydraulic clutch kits, mtx drive shafts, mtx gearbox mounts ect ect ect but manny people pm me after seeing them and ask me to do the same for them.

SiZT

ref: The manifolds with little to no taper, it's not so much an issue when they have longer runners with a bend in. Short, straight runners plus non taper inlet would overboost the furthest 2 cylinders away from the air entry point, single throttle or ITB.

Versus_Creations

iTrader: (1)

Perry thats what im talking about... You got the exact princible im trying to explain.

Anyone can weld bits of metal together and say they work. Proving them is something that not many people will firstly be able to do. Secondly get value for money in the amount it will cost in doing so. Ford spent £100,000's developing manifold designs to the EFi one for the CVH. The only thing that needs to be done for high power cars is to have it ported out or polished etc.. i really dont see the point for cvh engines..

andy130

iTrader: (2)

jano whats your thoughts on IAN HOWELL's inlet/ext manifold?

andy130

iTrader: (2)

The same about the ZVH engine that i said was pointless building all them years ago....


so your saying that ZVH engines are just shit from day one?

Versus_Creations

iTrader: (1)

No, not at all. Far from shit.

But pointless.

The subect has been covered many times. In short the CVH head is restrictive, fitting it to a larger CC engine makes it no better.

If you have a Zetec block then fitting a CVH head has no advantages. A full ZT is the way forward as we all know by now. When i built my first ZT in 1999 with the MTX75 gearbox both were very rare to see even more so in a mk3/4. From then on there has only been 2 engine options in my mind. A decent spec CVH or for the same if not less money a decent Zetec bottom end with rods and pistons and std head will always make easy power with very minimal work when compared to the amount you would spend to get the same results from a CVH or a ZVh.

As for ian howells manifolds i have not used one myself to be able to comment or seen one inside and how its been put together etc. Only seen them on the engine which in most cases would make decent power anyway just purely down to the engine components and turbo etc etc. Would it be any better than the next one i truthfully dont know.

For a Zetec the best manifold design i have seen is from the likes of Mountune and Jenvy. The amount of money they must of spent in R&D shows this.

Anthoer great post to read about manifolds is this one.

https://passionford.com/forum/genera...than-this.html

I couldnt find the Zetec roller plenum to hand but this is very similar.

Versus_Creations

iTrader: (1)

This is a work of art, only downside i see is that it still has a throttle body. But still never the less is awesome not just to look at and see that it will work. But its also had that much research done to make it as good as it looks.

Versus_Creations

iTrader: (1)

No not really mate. If you have an MFi inlet then doing this will not help that much. The best thing you ould do is match the manifold to the head and the gaskets etc. So that there is no step in the ports. The throttle body on the ERST is already big enough to run more power than you could push through the engine anyway.

Looks nice, but like most things being offered now days. Its just an illusion.


Meaning your pockets.

Rob_DOHC

iTrader: (4)

Think your being a little harsh buddy, if you haven't tested it you don't really know.

I agree things need to be properly designed and tested. Re the mfi manifold, i haven't seen any results my self but i read a good post from Perry the other day listing the inlet manifold as giving the greatest reduction to flow looking at the inlet as a system.

People keep saying that the standard ex manifold is good enough for 300 bhp, it may well manage to flow enough gasses made by an rst, it doesn't mean that VE can't be improved by a better manifold, same with the inlet, standard efi manifold is more than good enough to make 250 bhp, BUT you put a much better manifold on and the car will make the same power with lower boost, or better power with the same boost etc. VE has been improved, despite the original manifold being adequate.

Better to look at VE as a whole rather than just saying something isn't a restriction.

Got no problems with you or Crazy Cage mate, never met either of you, just don't think its really cool of you to slag of his work and maybe hurt his reputation with out a few proper facts first. He hasn't come on and slated your work.

Don't get me wrong, i respect you saying you don't mess people about and would rather be straight up and save their time etc.

Rob,

Rob_DOHC

iTrader: (4)

Perry they are some VERY nicely design manifolds, genuinely the amount of time taken to do that would be extraordinary.

BTW is this one real,

Looks like some very good photorealistic rendering.



Rob,

conor.rst

iTrader: (3)

Rob i don't think janos Deliberately slagging peoples work off. as he said hes a straight talker.

I can see wht your saying tho. about having a better flowing manifold. Maby somone could do some proper testing on the above manifolds

andy130

iTrader: (2)

[quote=conor.rst;5203381]Rob i don't think janos Deliberately slagging peoples work off. as he said hes a straight talker.



its best to keep shout sometimes,

Rob_DOHC

iTrader: (4)

Yea know what you mean mate, and would be great if some one did some back to back testing!



As said above though, this is a Jamsport design and clearly works as they use it lol so when Jano was saying it was a bent piece of metal with chemical weld it made me laugh because he probably wouldn't have said that if it had a Jamsport sticker on.

And for seconds, chemical metal lol, if i were crazy cage i would have gone mental. Those welds look brilliant, i wish i could weld like that.

Rob,

conor.rst

iTrader: (3)

On some occasions yes. i personally dont think on this one tho.

Just trying to save somone some moniees

conor.rst

iTrader: (3)

Lol i don't think he meant that literally ( could be wrong) i think Sometimes putting a statement across via the INTERNET can some times be read in the wrong context. We are all on this forum to seek advise and help each other, I'm sure no one Deliberately wants to "slag off" any one els company or hard work.

back to back testing is something to think about tho ...... Its about time i think

Rob_DOHC

iTrader: (4)

Probably not literally lol, plus i can see what he means about people banging some random manifold on their car, fucking it up then taking it to him to sort, im sure he sees it all the time. Don't get me wrong i wasn't having a dig at Jano, just pointing out that no one knows how the manifolds above work with out testing, not my argument.

Rob,

andy130

iTrader: (2)

jano have YOU tested these manifolds? crazy cage is a very smart man, look at his home built zetec turbo

QplateRST!

I run a very similar exhaust manifold to crazycage and it made a masive differance to my fiesta! I changed the manifold and went external wastegate my times on the dragstrip went from a 12.6 to a 12.1 and my terminal speed went from 118mph to 121mph There was no mapping done to the car after the change all that was check was c0,fuel presure and the boost was set made a big differance to my car

the mk1 kid

I dont have personal experience either making or tuning inlets, but from uni days, and a 5 minute brush-up to confirm my thoughts, the shape and size of the plenum is only have the story - the length (and dia) of the runners is the more crucial bit to get correct.

I believe views such as this one to be true:

When the intake valve is open on the engine, air is being sucked into the engine, so the air in the intake runner is moving rapidly toward the cylinder. When the intake valve closes suddenly, this air slams to a stop and stacks up on itself, forming an area of high pressure. This high-pressure wave makes its way up the intake runner away from the cylinder. When it reaches the end of the intake runner, where the runner connects to the intake manifold, the pressure wave bounces back down the intake runner....

Tom

Versus_Creations

iTrader: (1)

At the begining i said that the exhaust manifolds i have not used and will not comment on so please dont take my views from the inlets and confuse them with the exhaust.

Like i explained on my site, its obvious that if you fit a well made exhaust manifold it will deffo make better power and less lag etc etc etc but for high costs of 400-500quid makes this pointless when the std one will be fine. If you are trying to break land speed records, then fair enough go spend your moneys....



I must add that i had no idea who made what manifold and who designed it etc. TBH it makes no difference. Even if it was my best mate trying to sell them i would be honest with people and tell them my views. If it has a big comapany name attached to it, then there is even more reason for people to understand so that these companys will stop ripping people off.

Im not here to hurt peoples bussiness or knock their work without reason. However on that note i have not one seen these people paying trade fee's or even saying that they are traders of any sort.

If i was to come on here offering my services and custom parts i make it would end up with a ban very quickly. For bedroom traders to be able to get away with it just add to the insult of you guys getting ripped off for bent bits of metal, and also stops real traders from joining for them reasons.

I will not pay trade fee's on PF due to the amount of people who trade without paying for it.




Clearly works as they use it??????? What does that prove. How about if i used a plastic inlet manifold. Would this be great just because i used it. Of course not. Stop being so blinkered by company names.


As for would i say this if i knew who's manifold it was.....Yes i would Rob, i tell it how it is. I dont care what company is behind what product. If it dont work i will not hold back on saying so.

In the begining many years ago i was robbed by well known tuners and companys. This is the reason i am here today. I will carry on standing up for what i belive in.

Versus_Creations

iTrader: (1)

Andy, at no point i have said that he isnt clever. Clearly he is to be able to sell manifolds to you lot.

Also building a Zetec Turbo is nothing that hard. You make it out to be key hole surgery. I build engines daily and a Zetec has to be one of the easy engines to build.

In answer to your question. Yes i have seen many types of manifolds over the last 15 years and even this one above or very similar. If you want me to go in depth into why its no good then i will, but it will only damage the reputation that your so worried about even more.

If you was to remove the top part of that manifold and fit a STD EFi top back on to the manifold i think it would give better results. Maybe not for power but deffo for equal and corret amount of flow to each port. In the long run will make the engine last longer too.

If you wanted to flow more than 350bhp which the EFi inlet flows easy then all you would need to do is port it slightly.

I have used EFi inlets on Zetec Turbo's running T4 genuine turbo Greys and a CGi block to over 430bhp. This is designed by ford to have a central throttle and equal length runners.

What else could you need.




As for the chemical metal remarks, i was taking the piss as the welds do look good tbh. I was just making the point that anyone could do it for about £30

jessie_rs

i have a question jano what about the motorsport inlets mk and tom scarlet had on there cars would they not have the correct air flow? also gus series 1?

Versus_Creations

iTrader: (1)

Motorsport? Whats motorsport about them?