Karlos G

iTrader: (4)

I know people say that the high pressure oil pumps from Burtons, Kent, etc.. are crap and that a standard Ford item is the way to go. But does anyone actually have any evidence of this or is it just internet chinese wispers??

Whats wrong with them? Do they not produce higher oil presure? Are they unreliable and fail? Who has actually ran one and had a problem?

Keen to find out as i want to change my oil pump asap!

Thanks Fella's!

lead_foot

iTrader: (1)

High flow is what you want.

RST_Rob

I had one on mine but change to standard pump as had oil pressure issues. The pump never failed me but had read a fair few comments about the high pressure pumps so thought that might of been the case for my strange pressure issues. I now have the standard pump fitted with the high pressure spring fitted, least this way i know the pump is good and doesnt have horror storys about breaking up and failing!

Karlos G

iTrader: (4)

Yeah i rememebr you saying Rob, just trying to get some solid info so i can make the right choice!

Same thing isnt it mate? If it flows more it will be easier to maintain the pressure, same as fitting a bigger turbo to hold higher boost pressures easier.
Any pump you can recommend?

Turbocabbie

what pressure does a healthy CVH require and what does the standard pump deliver, ive never changed my pump from a standard one ?

Karlos G

iTrader: (4)

Min 15psi @ idle
Min 40psi @ 3000rpm
All @ 70-80 Degrees Celsius
Standard Pump should deliver this (er...obviously LOL)

crazycage

no there not the same and you dont fit a bigger turbo to hold higher boost . you would fit a bigger turbo to flow more air (more power)at the same boost , example a t2 @1bar and a t34 @1 bar do you think they would both make the same power just because the are both running 1 bar??

Karlos G

iTrader: (4)

Thats not what i was saying! But if i want to be picky 1bar of MAP on a T2 and 1bar of MAP on a T34 on the same engine will produce the same power because the VE of the engine hasnt changed.

What I said was a bigger turbo will hold boost pressure EASIER because it can flow more, just like a high flow oil pump will hold pressure EASIER than a oil pump that flows less.
The more it flows (volume) the easier it can hold pressure, this applies to a turbo or any pump in fact.

But this is all irrelevant, what i want to know is peoples experiences with oil pumps.

crazycage

ok you seem to no what your talking about.
but the only difference between a standard and high pressure oil pump is the spring on the relief valve, ps do you really think 1 bar on both turbos is the same air flow?

Karlos G

iTrader: (4)

Thanks for that, i didnt realise that was the difference.

Bart

The VE has changed because you fitted a bigger turbo. It will make more power with the bigger turbo on the same boost levels. Why would we put a bigger turbo on it if it would make no difference???

Karlos G

iTrader: (4)

Without increasing the flow through the head (bigger valves, porting etc..) 1Bar of MAP will still be the same volume/flow on whatever turbo you use.
You fit a bigger turbo when you reach the limit of your current turbo's compressor map efficiency island (going beyond this just produces lots more heat and very little additional flow), but you still want to run higher boost.

Bart

Ok i'm going to order a t2 for my cossie and run it at 3 bar boost, here i come 600BHP! lol
A bigger turbo flows more air at the same boost than a smaller, please look at compressor maps. If youre engine can't flow the air of a bigger turbo you just have a turbo which is to big or a wrongly specced engine.

Karlos G

iTrader: (4)

It will still take exactly the same volume/flow to maintain say 1Bar of pressure on the same engine!!
Why because you fit a bigger turbo does the head all of a sudden need to flow more air to reach a MAP of 1Bar?? It doesnt, and so the power will not change as no more air is reaching the chambers because you have not increased boost pressure or altered the efficiency/flow of the head (porting etc...)

mikemcc03

if its any good to u i fitted a high pressure burton oil pump an my oil light flickered at idle dnt know if it was caused by sumthin else but didnt take the chance of runnin it too long.. not sayin burton pumps are crap i just didnt look into why it flickered i had another good engine at a very good price so swapped em ova. thats just my dealin i had..

©hatter Box

std ford pump is the best to get as it flows just what you want for std bhp or 350bhp.hi flow pump don’t mean shit every one that i know that puts a hi flow pump on 1 week later there engine goes bang.

Bart

So you say for exapmle a cosworth engine will make the same power with a T3 or a T34 at the same boost??? What engine are you running? Seems not very good if youre maxing youre head out with a T2 turbocharger?

Karlos G

iTrader: (4)

IF and I do mean IF the T3 was able to hold the same boost as the T34 then yes, but it wont because the Cosworth will need much more air FLOW than the T3 can provide!! Unless your Cossie was running 3 psi... then maybe?!!? lol

WHat it comes down to is that when you force more air into the manifold/head the boost pressure will rise, if it doesnt then the same amount of air is there as there was before. Hence fitting a bigger turbo and running the same boost as you were on a smaller turbo will see the same power!
The only difference you may feel is more torque as you reach the desired boost level because it will reach it faster as the turbo can flow more and get the manifold/head up to pressure faster.

Simply put:
Higher boost pressure=More air in=More power
Same boost pressure=Same air in=Same power


Exactly the sort of info i'm after! Thanks!
Any one else?

Bart

Youre wrong

This is a article Stu wrote about turbochargers and the title is:

How a big turbo makes more power for same boost...
Heres a reproduction i did ages ago on RsBB about why a T4 makes more power than a T3 or T34 at the same boost level.

------------------------------------------------------------------

Let’s go back right the way to basics…

Why is it, that a turbocharger is universally is recognised as the ONLY form of forced induction that COSTS power?

Well let’s look at this shall we?
We have a decently specced engine, say an Rs2000 I4 and we are making 170bhp through our otherwise std setup with some head mods and cams.

To make this power we are utilising the air pumping ability of our 4 x 500cc cylinders.

They are drawing in enough air and fuel at the correct ratio and importantly, expelling it again to produce this power. This ability incidentally is related to its volumetric efficiency which i will touch briefly later.

The I4 is making its 170bhp with its nice, well-designed STANDARD 4-2-1 exhaust system.

Let’s now redesign it in the great Ford RsBB fashion and remove the nice exhaust system and stick a tiny pathetic straw sized .48A/R turbine housing on it with a closed wastegate and the turbocharger actually welded tight so it can’t spin.

Does ANYONE on this BB think this engine will now make 170bhp? Well It will be very lucky to make 120bhp now.

So whats happened?

WE HAVE INCREASED PUMPING LOSSES DRAMATICALLY.
This is the biggest issue. The reason this costs us power, is a great proportion of the energy produced from the power stroke of 1 cylinder burning our nicely presented charge of fuel and air is now wasted trying to push the spent gas out of the previously active cylinders exhaust valve and through the tiny turbine housing.

We now have some detrimental knock on effects:
The friction on components caused by this pumping loss now adds heat to our engine too. This heat was part of our power strokes energy.

This pumping loss has also caused the overlap events effective scavenge volume to drop massively as the nice, meticulously calculated pulsation vacuum that designers spent hundreds of hours to create has now been exchanged for BACKPRESSURE.

This backpressure has now also decreased the amount of air the exhaust pulse drew through the inlet valve at overlap when piston speed was at its lowest so maximum cylinder fill has reduced, down goes VE.. Things are looking bad for our power curve now.


So conversely, as we now have LESS airflow on overlap, we are going to start dumping heat through our exhaust seat and port and are heating our soft alloy head up.

WHY? Very simple ,
Designers use scavenging on overlap as a very simple and very effective way of cooling valve seats, guides and ports.

How? Also very simple ,
As we reach overlap in our cam timing event we have both COLD inlet and HOT exhaust valve open, this gives the exhaust valve and relative components time to be cooling from their grievous job only moments ago of shifting a mass of immensely hot air through its system so it’s a great relief to sit in some nice cold flowing air for a second and transfer a bit of excess heat away!!

Our fancy new engine / design isn’t looking too hot now is it? (Well actually, its getting damn hot.. )

So,
I hope this large and simply worded explanation helps you to understand that a turbo DEFINATELY costs power by its very presence on your engine and also why it does so?

Ok? Good!!

So what the hells that got to do with today’s BB argument? Oh yeah, sorry........

Exhaust backpressure caused by the turbine housing assembly’s restriction is our key element between T3 and T4.

But let’s deal with the delivery of our air first and we will use the good old YB for our examples.

A T4 produces far more VOLUME of air at a given pressure from its HOUSING than a T3.THATS UNIVERSALLY AGREED.

Now if we quickly use this bizarre volume of air example supplied by someone earlier...


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Foolishly, sorry, Originally Posted by erm.. someone
Look at it this (simple way so you understand ), imagine a 1 ft diameter balloon inflated to 15psi. Then imagine a 2ft ballon inflated to 15psi - are you trying to tell me that both have the sane volume of air in them?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



That balloon is actually bigger so yes it holds more volume, but this is not applicable to an engine because even if we take all the inlet valves out and pressurise the system with our turbochargers, we are still presenting each turbocharger with the same volume to fill, lets say 2000cc for the cylinders and 1000cc for the intake of the head and the plenum / hoses.

So we have a 3000cc volume to pressurise with air. This does not change unless the engine begins to operate. An engine will only generate more power by shifting more air at the correct AFR. SIMPLE.

The engine will only shift more air if we do one of the following:

1) Improve the airs route into the head.
2) Increases the pressure we push it in with.
3) Improve the mapping.
4) Improve the volumetric efficiency.

So,
We still know a T4 WILL make more power than a T3 at the same boost so why is that?

We don’t appear to have done any of the above mods do we?
The head hasn’t been ported.
We are running the same boost.
We aint touched the chip cos PHIL cant remember what spec it was for!
So have we changed the engines VE?

Good question, and back to turbo’s.
A T3 50trim with our desired pressure ratio of 2.4 (14.7psi inlet +20psi outlet divided by 14.7psi inlet) will be spinning at 134,000 rpm with a compressor efficiency of 70%.

A T4 60 trim with our desired pressure ratio of 2.4 (14.7psi inlet +20psi outlet divided by 14.7psi inlet) will be spinning at only 97,000 rpm with a compressor efficiency of 82%.

Now lets go to the turbine housing.
The T4 P trim wheel flows a lot more air than the Std T3 trim rear wheel. (They are all the same as std on T3) but it conversely takes more to spin it to speed.

We now have an exhaust backpressure IMPROVEMENT due to a better flowing rear wheel!!!!!!!

Secondly,
We now have a wastegate that will open much sooner and much wider than it would on the T3 as less exhaust volume is required to spin the turbine as we have a 37,000 rpm improvement in efficiency at our 20psi.

HEY, we have another exhaust backpressure IMPROVEMENT.

If our T4 is using a bigger housing, and it IS if compared to a T3 we have another exhaust backpressure IMPROVEMENT!!

So lets go to boost at the intake:
Now our exhaust backpressure is reduced, our cylinders demand for air has increased. We have overlap efficiency gains, we have thermal efficiency gains so we can suck more air and we can suck it with a greater pull because we are actually revving more freely so our peak piston velocity has increased.

So we are CONSUMING more air and this T4 can supply it for fun… But… we aren’t making more power because the T4 pumped more air at 20psi.

We are making more power because this turbo improved the volumetric efficiency of our engine mainly through exhaust backpressure reductions and an improvement in outlet temperatures at the compressor outlet due to Adiabatic Efficiency which we may or may not discuss later.

Goodnight folks,
If anyone wants to know what the compressor maps do and how to decipher the turbo specs, let me know when ive slept cos this essay took me four hours to write in a fashion that anyone can understand!! It would take about 15mins using techie terms

Best Regards and goodnight,
Stu

Karlos G

iTrader: (4)

LOL
Yes your are completley right, I had forgotten the a bigger turbo will reduce exhaust backpressure and so the gasses will get out quicker allowing greater flow at the same boost pressure! (better VE) Sorry!
Because of this....
"Now lets go to the turbine housing.
The T4 P trim wheel flows a lot more air than the Std T3 trim rear wheel. (They are all the same as std on T3) but it conversely takes more to spin it to speed.

We now have an exhaust backpressure IMPROVEMENT due to a better flowing rear wheel!!!!!!! "

Although.... if it's only the compressor wheel that changed and not the exhaust side then what i was saying was right. If you went from a Stock T3 to a Stage 1, or Stage 2 for example as they use the same exhaust housing/wheel.

Bart

Depends if the engine can consume the extra air it will make more power.