what else is there left to try...?

ECT , works fine and the voltage go the right way at the ecu.
MAP , works fine and the voltage go the right way at the ecu.
TPS , works fine and the voltage go the right way at the ecu.


also had new fusebox, new lambda probe, new TDC and phase sensors and these are gapped correctly.

all the multiplugs under th ebonnet vent have been done away with and the wires soldered one at a time.

its had a new walbro 255l/h fuel pump, would anything normally need ajusting to account for this...?

 

The chip itself????





john

 

HI,

Have you checked the fuel pressure. i assume it is escort cosworth with cat
o2 sensor faulty?

DAVE R.

 

i wud of said the chip aswell as u tried most stuff already. did u have the chip installed ( i assume its aftermarket ) are u running right boost for the map?

 

i have just fitted a new o2 sensor and it still reads rich all the time apart from when you rev and let off, it drops back lean momenterily,

the chip is an AB stg 3 on a pectel board, (3 bar map, 803s) since i fitted it ( alog with the other bits and fuel pump, it has done this, but while its been in storage so it has not had a road run for about 18 months

 

i read somewhere that the fuel presure reg needs changing, but im sure that only applied to small turbo models...?

 

I think I might have a similar problem on my Big Turbo, mine is running an ahmed bajoo stage 3 chip took for an mot 0.37% CO at idle, took it back a week later and it had gone up to 9.5% !!! nothing was toutched.

No rolling road place has figured out whats wrong as all the sensors work fine. I'm suspecting the chip or ECU in my case now !!

 

hmmmm , is yours on a issue 2 pectel board..?

 

HI,
As i said above, have you checked the fuel pressure?, as regulator may be faulty.
air charge sensor signal can also alter fuel and ignition, may be mapped wrong,
you could do with someone like stu from this forum MSD, to check the chip with
a emulator to see maps in real time.

DAVE R.

 

fuel presure reg was full of crap, stripped that down and cleaned it today, but bizarely, now even worse than before.

will check the pressure 2morrow though,,,

and the abs pump has stopped working

AND while pollishing her todday, abird flew in teh garage , shat on the roof and fle out, dont know if thats good luk or a curse ...

 

Just checked my pectel board, issue no 1 (18/05/99), have a collins board coming later in the week to check, see if that makes any difference......

I know my fuel pressure was correct as it was checked on the rolling road.

 

ive given up, its booked in at CPP for a check over,

 

If you get to find out whats wrong mate, please post back. It would be helpful to me !!

Cheers

 

will do

 

righty... i decided , as to eliminate as many things as possible , as while the head was off, ive done loads of work, (new sensors, puel pump,. chip , map sensor injectors etc ) i thougt i'd put the phase 0 chip, std inmjectors and map sensor back in. fired her up and she runs fine so it is either the injectors that are not atomiseing the fuel (maybe all blocked slightly...?) or its the actual chip itself, unfortunately i got the chip second hand from a breaker wel over a year ago now so woudn't habe though there would be much come back ..??

 

more likly to be the chip dave

 

from that I'll go with wrong chip for your spec etc

 

hmm, only thing is, speaking to the guy who supplied them and the whole lot came off a car that was running spot on with them, its not like ive had abit from here and a bit from there if u know what i mean..

 

Dave, Is your cossie running vernier cam gears that are not at the standard settings ? or has the Cyl head been machined previously ?

The reason i ask is cos both of these will reduce the vacuum signal to the map sencor at idle beacause the stock cam timing has changed and the mapping in the chip was probably based on standard cam timing/vaccum. This will make the engine run richer than normal cos the ecu may think that there is load on the engine.

Here in Australia most of the cossies run the Autronic ecu. I have programmed a few cossies here in OZ and once we get the engine mapped, we then start playing with the cam timing and immediatly the mixtures at idle will go rich if vacuum is reduced (increased overlap) or lean if the vacuum is increased (reduced overlap). Obviously it just a matter of sorting the cam timing and then re adjusting the idle mixture to suit.

I know that as soon as green (803 or larger) injectors are fitted that the stock ecu does struggle to have a lean idle as we have seen this on all the "chipped" cossies here. Also the heat range of your spark plugs will effect the idle CO readings. Cold plugs will struggle compared to hot (standard) spark plugs when you are trying to reduce the idle CO's.

J

 

that does make sense actually... ir has had the head skimmed when i redid the head gasket, it has only 1 skim left in it the machine shop guy said before its no use for turbo engine. even though i used the thicker cometic head gasket to try to overcome the upped C/R do to the skim, it still may be enough to cause it to pul less vac, just out of interest what should a good engine pull at idle with no vta dump valve? mine pull down to -0.7 bar and stays steady there at idle.

 

would a way round this be to fit verniers to offset the fact that now at TDC the 2 pointers dont line up perfectly anymore....

 

Dave, I really can't give you an accurate answer on the vacuum a standard engine pulls as all the cossies i have dealt with had, had Cyl head previously machined/lower comp etc.

I'm shore there are people on this forum that would have a near stock engine that they can post the vacuum there engine pull and compare to yours.

The cossies that were tested that were "chipped" with a set of greens were all runing an A/F ratio between 11.8 to 12.5 to 1 at idle. This is rich but it seems its a price to pay for the benifits (extra HP). I am not shore what these figure relate to in CO's for you to compare your figures to.

J

 

Yes it would. But it would be wiser to possably borrow a set cos i wouldnt want you to spend the money on a pair of verniers and it doesnt cure your problem. Even if you do buy a set i'm shore you would rather the vernier settings for POWER rather than a good CO at idle. The catch is once set for power the engine tends to pull LESS vacuum again and may run richer.

If you have a tuner/performance shop give you a A/F reading at idle and it falls within the 11.8 - 12.5 figure, then it is the same as what i have seen on 6 cossies that i have personally checked myself. If that is the case, in my opinion there is nothing wrong with your set up.

J

 

i wouldn't mind the rich running at idle so much but when it affects the general running of the car, then thats no good

so is really the only real way forward to run greens is to have it live mapped with the engine in the condition it is in, or would a closed loop chip sort this out anyway...?

could do with stu poping in on the thread and answerign some of these questions
as next plan is to get one of stus closed loop chips, but if it wont sort me out, it'll need a live map.

 

Dave, I just sent an sms to Mark Shead of MADevelopments and his reply was that he would expect approx 5% CO at idle for your set up. (3bar/803's) At least this give you some sort of an idea to how close/far you are from were it should be.

J

 

cheers BMEP, appreciate that

 

ummmm 5% CO at idle, mine is nearly identical spec to Daves and when that went in for the MOT was running 0.37% at idle .i take it that was far to low, but without any changes now runs 9.5% (who knows why - no rolling road garage understands it) when it gets to about 3000rpm the lamba sensor switches over and fueling is fine on boost, just off boost it seems far to rich !!

Just noticed my chip actually clicks during running, when i rev up it clicks as the revs drop it stops !!!............???

 

the actual chip, or the ecu, as its switching the injectos..?

 

The chip can't click because it's solid state!! It is only a read only memory chip.

Also the lambda does not control on boost fueling . It is the extra air entering the engine which makes it leaner and added to the fact you're on different load cells within the map.

 

ah, it may be the ecu - should it do this ??

Cant remember exactly what the rolling road operator said now, but from memory it was something to the effect of he originally suspected the lamba sensor which appeared to not be switching over unill it reached about 3000rpm. (wether that be on or off I didn't ask ), but on boost the fueling was correct and not running rich like it does at Idle. Ie its not rich all the way up the rev range.

Have I explained that properly ??!!??.as i say my memory is a bit vauge now.

If you guys know of anything I can check please help me !!!

 

Dave, Had any luck with your motor mate ??

 

like i say, ive put it back to std and it runs fine which eliminates the ecu and/or car wiring.

i've pm'ed stu about whether his closed loop chip would sort this problem when running greens , but not seen him on here for a couple of days now,

suppose i could ring him,,

 

Hi Dave,
Im unsure what you have and havent covered yourself in this topic so feel free to ask me directly what information your require.

On the Escort Cosworth most error codes are disabled with pectel software so you are out of luck with regards conventional code scanning diagnosis equiptment. To my mind, this is often due to teh software being so glitchy it was better for the tuners to remove all limp home options to save them problems when the chip caused issues and the P8 induced a 4KRPM limiter..lol.

Petrucci will tell you all about this after he drove 2500 miles for me to prove this point when my software looked crap as it wouldnt let him run over 4 but his pectel software did.... was a hard fault to find, but i found it and proved my software was just saving him from a dead engine...

My software leaves it all fully enabled and retains closed loop fuelling and knock control. With my own software id expect to see 0.4- 0.9% at idle and lambda 1 under all non boost conditions.

Common reasons for rich with P8:
Try the fuse labelled "KAT" as this is the lambda circuit, its common for this to blow as the lambdas get old and the wiring gets suspect.

Try also to borrow some NON Pectel software as teh baords can cause issues as well.

Ive subscribed to this topic now and will help all i can

 

Stu,

I have had a very similar issue to Dave too, where upon first MOT is was running 0.37% CO, upon second MOT it had shot up to 9.5%. (I realise that you can't diagnose faults over e-mail). Nothing was actually touched apart from a seized rear brake caliper. Its been to a rolling road and they were not entirely sure what was the cause, but said on boost it was running correctly (ie not rich as per idle). They initially suggested the Lamba sensor but after connecting up equipment this was fine, but they did say it appeared to not work up till about 2.5 - 3K then it functioned.

They even checked each sensor and they were all within limits. (lamba sensor was working)

They suggested the chip may be the cause ?? which is in line with what you have said above. I will try that KAT fuse just to make sure.

Is there any other easy suggestions ??

Thanks !

 

lambda sensors can be faulty and still work, its the swicthing time tahtgs affected, but in many cases, the internal heater fails and then the sensor is innacurate until the exhaust gas gets hot... IE, higher RPM.

The sensor needs a nominal tip temperature of 750degrees C, its crucial it stays up there or it will foul amongst other things, thats why they have a heater.

 

Thanks for that info stu, I wish the roilling road would have suggested that !!

Just nudged the lead off the Lamba sensor with the car running and the idle speed altered, doesn't seem to do it all the time.......I will get a new Lamba sensor.

Thanks !!

 

morning all,

checked the fuse, ok, power to the heater connetion ok and a new probe fitted,

measuring across pins 1&2 at the ecu, the voltage reads 1.2vdc at idle even when upto temp, the voltage only drops to 0.3vdc when you rev it and it drops on the overrun, im not an expert on this by anymeans, but the point that BMEP made about the head being skimmed seem to make me think that this itself could be the cause.... so could a reduced vac (getting closer to atmospheric) equate in the chips fuel map to intorduce more fuel as it thinks the engine is coming on load,,,

i think,,, the best bet would be to when its mot'd next week(hopefully) is book in at MSD and let stu see it and if needs be have a closed loop MSD chip fitted or have it live mapped, whichever is needed