Over the past week or so my car, a 1998 Escort Gti Estate, started devoping a problem where I would be driving along and the engine would sort of 'stutter', as if the the engine momentarily cut out and then kicked back in

Whether this has any bearing on the issue I don't know but during the week before it started happening two things occured, one being that I changed the spark plugs, the other that I'd let it run a lot lower on fuel than I usually do, well under a quarter of a tank

Thinking it could be a case of crud being dragged up from the tank I filled it right up and and added some injector cleaner to see if that would help

No immediate improvement but I thought give it time for the cleaner to work it's way through the system, however by the time I'd done around 35-40 miles things got worse

Three days ago the engine just shut off on me without any sort of warning such as 'spluttering' etc and wouldn't start back up, turn the ignition on and the usual lights would light up on the console but the engine just didn't turn over at all

Tried to bump start it but no luck there either

Left the car standing for about 45 minutes, put the key in the ignition, turned it ... and the damn thing started up first time

The following day (last night) I put the old plugs back in and had the local garage fit a new fuel fiter, then proceeded to take it for a short drive to see what happened

Same thing, went for about a mile and a half (uphill mostly) then it cut out on me, and the same behaviour if I tried restarting it

This time however even after being left standing overnight it still wouldn't start, engine not turning over when I turn the key in the ignition

Not really sure how to go about finding the problem so I'm looking for suggestions

It kinda feels like a fuel problem and the old fuel filter was extremely dirty, but the fact it doesn't turn over with the key in the ignition suggests there might be something else going on

Or is there perhaps some kind of 'cut-off' device in play that stops the thing turning over on the ignition key if there's no fuel getting through?

Starter motor's unlikely as that wouldn't cause it to just cut out whilst it's running

I don't think it's something like dodgy plugs, ht leads or coil because if it were wouldn't the car be running at least a little bit rough?

When it's running it runs really well and pretty much drives smooth as hell

Would an ignition switch problem prevent it bump-starting? Tried wiggling the key about in the ignition, but everything's lighting up as it should anyway


Anyone have any ideas?

 

I would check/change the crankshaft sensor first.

 

Defo an electrical problem, the fact it doesn't turn over proves this.

I suspect the immobiliser, check that the PATS LED is extinguishing when ignition is switched ON, this would stop the starter from working and not sure on the version of PATS you would have cuts the fuel pump power hence if activating when running is the reason the car stalls.

Martin

 

Both of those replies convinced me of one thing ... I'm probably best off letting the local garage find the problem

Incidentally though, I do have a spare ecu, the engine in the car was changed last year and with the engine came an ecu with a red key

Having just read a bit about PATS it sounds like that could be a master for reprogramming the ecu that came with the engine to work with my existing ignition key

Am I correct in thinking that?


By the way, when I switch the ignition on two lights go out, abs and with what looks like a picture of an airbag to the top left

Battery, oil, handbrake and the one with a picture of a car (check engine?) all stay on, these usually go out once the car is started

I'm not even sure which LED is related to PATS, never even heard of PATS until I saw it in your reply so I don't know whether any of those I mentioned relate to PATS or not

 

You are correct the earlier generation PATS had a red master key this is required to program additional keys. The PATS LED will not be in the dashboard area (It's a RED LED usually located by the clock/Centre dash)

PATS= Passive Anti Theft System

The Airbag and ABS lights should extinguish this indicates they have done a self diag and everything is ok.

Battery and oil should extinguish with engine running, and handbrake obviously when handbrake is released (Unless low brake fluid)

I am almost certain this is the problem from what you have said and doing the free easy thing to looking at the state of the LED will confirm this!

Martin

 

Just sat down for my belated lunch ... been one of 'those' days

I'll check that out soon as I've eaten Martin, and if it proves to be the case, what would I need to do in order to sort it?

 

Checked and the PATS led doesn't come on at all

Also, I tried disconnecting the battery for a while, reconnected it and the car started on the first turn of the key ... drove a few hundred yards, died on me and wouldn't start again, exactly as before


I found this on a PATS info page for mk3 fiestas:

The engine does not start and LED remains off. 1. Check PATS system fuses 2. If alarm is fitted check if LED functions for alarm: if not check cigar lighter fuse (also used for LED) 3. If not go to main dealer


Could it really be something as simple as a fuse?

Nearest place I can get a fuse from to check is ten miles away which makes it a difficult when my car won't start

 

Actually it can't be the fuse, at least not the one that secures the PATS led as it flashes when the ignition is off


Any ideas on why what might be the problem when it doesn't light up at all when the ignition is switched on?

 

i had same problem with my previous 3 escorts and it was the ignition module, changed that problem sorted

 

Last night I took the battery out so I plug into a charger to check it had a good charge, showing 80% and took about an hour to get to a full charge

Put the battery back in this afternoon, turned the ignition to postion 2, the PATS led came on for about 3 or 4 seconds then went out, switched the ignition back off then back on again, this time it went back to the previous behaviour of not coming on at all

I did notice that there's a fair amount of corrosion on the connections that the wiring fits into on the plastic module which goes onto the positive battery terminal, so I'm thinking it's probably a good idea to clean all those up to make sure the connections are all good before I start buying parts that may not need replacing

Though why disconnecting the battery would let it work once only every single time I do it and for long enough to drive the car a few hundred yards each time if it is a dodgy connection issue I don't know

 

Forgive my ignorance ... but by ignition module do you mean the coil?

i.e the bit your HT leads fit onto?

If so I believe I might still have the one that came with the original engine, in which case I can swap them over and if it doesn't fix the problem at least it would eliminate one possible cause

 

ignition module is actually connected to the outer casing of the distributor, it's quite small and squareish, black, new one would cost about Ł40. have tried to upload photo to show you but not having any luck

 

managed to added pic, hope this helps

 

I don't see any pic mate

 

 

https://passionford.com/forum/album....ictureid=15968
if this doesn't work go to my album xr3i it's the only pic in there

 

That isn't what I have on my car mate, mine's a 1998 Gti which has an efi zetec engine

But I'm pretty sure from the pic you posted I'm thinking of the right bit, I'll see if I can find it in the garage tomorrow and give it a try

(Finding it's easier said than done as my mate has two fiestas, two quad's and a moped in there at the moment ... it's a bit crowded to say the least )

 

good luck

 

The pic shows an "inducive module" it works on a hall effect principle, this was on older cars and is the simplest form of breakerless ignition, modern cars use ECU to control ignition timing, the car in question won't have a distributor.

The LED should extinguish when the key is in the ignition as this shows the immobilizer is not armed, have you got/tried another key?

Martin

 

Yeah that's what I meant Martin, you just explained it better, I do admit I'm not all that knowledgeable about this stuff

I've dug out the one I had in the garage and fitted it, car is now running, though it still doesn't feel quite right so I'm gonna get a brand new one and fit that

It may well settle down after it's been driven, I only tested it round the village, but it is an old one I've put on and as I have to use the car to get to Bristol airport next week I'd feel more comfortable knowing it was a new one as opposed to an old one that may not be all that great


Thanks for taking the time to help me with this guys, I'll post back if it still doesn't run quite right after I fit the new one

Thanks again, Rune

 

Still wrestling with this one

I've changed the fuel filter, ignition module, HT leads and plugs (all new), no problem with it starting now, the pats led is behaving as it should, I think we can rule out an immobiliser issue (correct me if I'm wrong)

I've left it ticking over for 15-20 minutes, doesn't cut out at all and the idling's not the slightest bit rough, but a curious thing, if I drop the bonnet from about a foot up to let it just click shut while the car's ticking over, revs drop away and sounds like it's gonna cut out then it just picks back up right to around 900 where the book says it should idle at

When I drive it, it sort of 'judders', like it's cutting out then kicking back in and a couple of times it's cut out when dipping the clutch. Unlike before though when cutting out it will start back up immediately, without having to leave it standing for a while as I had to at the beginning of this saga

Local garage changed the fuel filter for me and the guy did say that the filter he took off was absolutely filthy, so I'm thinking the pump being full of crap may be an issue (you can hear the pump priming when you turn the ignition key just fine)



Being clueless about cars all I have to rely on is a real small portion of common sense, the way it's cutting out and kicking back in seems most likely to be either some kind of firing problem, or a fuel feed problem

If it was fuel I'd expect it to be 'boggy', sluggish, but it isn't, when it's not displaying the cut out/kick in behaviour it pulls as well as ever, am I right in thinking there'd be a loss of power of if it was feeding insufficient fuel?


If it's not fuel, seems to be it has to be something causing it to intermittently 'not fire', that would explain the cut-out/kick-in behaviour

It's highly unlikely to be the coil, leads or plugs because I've tried previously 'known good' plugs and leads as well as brand new ones. The coil that was on there when all this started happening was probably fubar'd, because as soon as I took that out the starting problem disappeared, and with the brand new one in pats led started winkin at me when it should



Gone as far as I can with my super limited car knowledge and meagre dose of common sense allows, don't even know what tells the ignition module 'you should fire plug blah now'


Any ideas on what I should try looking at next much appreciated



Btw, no idea if it's relevant, but the garage was unable to connect to the car with the diagnostics kit they have, could there be an ecu problem?


Ideas anyone?


Rune

 

First off what are you calling the ignition module as it won't be the one pictured above?

It sounds to me as it's a loose connection due to it showing itself when you drop the bonnet, check the connector for the CPS and other connections. (This will be located on the gearbox most likely, on older cars it was located by the crank pulley itself)

The ECU fires the spark plugs based on the input it receives from various sensors, primarily the CPS.

It may not be an ECU problem just because they could not read it as there equipment/software may not be compatiable with the ECU.

Martin

 

It's the ignition coil I meant and no mate it's not the same as the picture above

What is a cps? Crank pulley sensor? I did check all the leads I could see were connected in properly when I fitted the new coil, can't see any that aren't plugged in as they should be


Regards the ecu there is an issue I could kick myself for not having considered before, for a while I've been getting some water in the passenger footwell

Originally thought it was getting in through the door/door opening seal but in the past few days I've tracked it down to be getting in via a small hole in the battery compartment and coming through under the glove box

The ecu is fitted just forward of the door post close to the floor on the passenger side so I'm thinking maybe some water/condensation's gotten in there, possibly some corrosion, either of these could be causing it to play up couldn't it?

I do have a spare ecu for it and the red master key so I'm thinking it's worth at least trying a swap seeing as I have it, wouldn't happen to know if I need anything other than the ecu itself and the master key to get it working would ya?

Mechanic at our local garage said something about a magnetic ring somewhere around the ignition barrel on the steering column that he isn't 100% sure doesn't also have to be changed, said he's gonna check on that with an auto-electrician type mate of his over the weekend

 

Certainly worth a shot if the water has got inside it could have damaged it, the ring your talking about dosen't need to be changed it reads the transponder in the key, so long as the PATS and the key are paired there will be no problem and of course the ECU is identical.

CPS= Crankshaft position sensor and it won't be near the coil pack, most likely it's mounted near the flywheel (As it uses the ring gear for reference) where as older cars actually had it mounted by the crankshaft pulley itself in either case the it's still measuring the 'crankshaft position'.

Martin

 

Checked out the ecu, no signs of corrosion or any water/moisture getting into it

Found a bad earth that goes from the battery to the ecu, sorted that out and took it for a drive

Driving great ... for about two miles, then it cut out on me, this time when I tried restarting it, totally dead electrically, not a single light coming on when when turning the ignition

It was as if there was no battery in the car and I'd fully charged it a few days previous, battery is fine

A mate came out with jump leads, fired up straight away no problem, drove it back and it was driving fine again

Must be electrical, bad connection or something somewhere, I'm off to lanzarote for a fortnight tomorrow so I'm just gonna leave it with the local garage and have them go over all the connections they can find, clean them up etc

With luck they'll have sorted it by the time I get back

 

I said on an earlier post:

I did notice that there's a fair amount of corrosion on the connections that the wiring fits into on the plastic module which goes onto the positive battery terminal, so I'm thinking it's probably a good idea to clean all those up to make sure the connections are all good before I start buying parts that may not need replacing


Never did do it as I couldn't get it off, just mentioned it to the lads round at the garage before I went away for my holiday

They replaced it with one they picked up at a breakers for a tenner and it seems to have been going fine ever since ... they were good enough to use up half the petrol I'd left in there using the car for trips to the chip shop, picking up parts they needed etc

And they smoked the pack of cigs I'd left in there!

That's surely sorted it though as I've taken it for a forty mile drive myself since and it's now running as well as it was before all this started, maybe even a little better

Thanks to all those who tried helping me and made suggestions