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General Car Related Discussion.To discuss anything that is related to cars and automotive technology that doesnt naturally fit into another forum catagory.
Hi Folks,
I havent had a whinge for a while so here you have it, because this really drives me mad and it getting too common!
We recently had a car in the workshop with problems that developed after having a remap elsewhere locally. The customer to his credit freely admits he went there as it was cheaper than us which is absolitely fair enough.
His car has big problems and even our BMW diagnostics showed up nothing at all wrong. Which was odd, as they usually have some codes listed, but this had nothing at all.
So after a period of head scratching, my calibrator, Arran delved into the ECU Calibration and found this...
What is it you might ask?
Well that is 181 Diagnostic Trouble Codes (DTC's) deleted from the ECU so any of those component or plausibility errors will never flag and the engine will just keep on going.
The 181 Trouble codes that are missing.
This is getting more and more common and we see it across our installer network almost daily now.
The cheap mappers have trouble remapping and keeping the lights out, so they just bin all the codes so the owner has no idea its a mess in there. Absolute Madness!
If this car had a fuel pressure problem, a clogged DPF, injector or glowplug problem, or any one of the 181 errors listed, it could do nothing to warn the owner about it.
These guys need jailing. A problem like a clogged DPF or excess common rail pressure can actually cause a FIRE! Thats why the bloody programming is there to prevent it!
Take care out there folks... the ability to use a laptop does NOT make someone a quality engine management calibrator!
The clown who did this plainly knows less about engine calibration and safety limits than I do about space travel!
This is much too common now and is rife with unscrupulous used car sales places who buy cars with errors cheap and then just have that error flag binned to hide it. Tidy profit.
Its also a headache for the garage trade in general as can you imagine trying to dioagnose a problem with a modern car that has had all its codes removed so they never work? garage has a headache, cstomers paying massive labour for troubleshooting. Its just a mess.
Rant over... normal service will now be resumed.
Last edited by Stu @ M Developments; 13-08-2015 at 02:07 PM.
Thanks Stu, I don't think there is a cure other than this sort of education.
By the way, the wife has just got a Mini Copper SD on 2011 plate, it is the 2.0 turbo diesel, it goes well but have you mapped any of these? I am a long way from you so would need to sort the logistics of that.
i"m not a fan of the coding delete on bmws etc either
but to be fair the design itself allows lots of errors to be present without flagging the eml-ie temperature low[thermostats usually both-so it runs rich and cokes up a bit] glowplugs and control unit-either of which not working wont allow the dpf to re-gen
anybody buying a modern bmw should get it scanned for faults at least if they are paying a few quid for it
Followed this on facebook Stu, a mate of mine had a VW transporter mapped in the blackpool area as another good mapper (not msd) was busy for a week.
The transporter went alright but developed a real bad vibration, a lot of money was spent chasing this vibration, the owner then asked the mapping company to put it back to a standard map, they said ecu had to go away, had the van for 3 days and when the owner got it back, it was exactly the same as before, We had a drive to Stockport to Rick@unicorn motor developments and he loaded a standard calibration direct through the OBD, all of a sudden the dpf light started coming on again for its self check, quick road test and the van was slow as shit again and the vibration was gone. Matey was not happy, he learned a valuable lesson, if a mapper can't get you in for work instantly then maybe they are good at what they do.
Seen it a few years ago at work.
I paid nearly Ł300 to have my Mondeo remapped. It had a full diagnostics done including a quick look over all the drive train. I was even warned that my high mileage clutch could go pop but it was a risk I was willing to take.
The car had 3 dyno runs before and 3 dyno runs after to prove it was making the right power and the right gains.
The car went from 123bhp/322nm to 146bhp/398nm.
A decent increase, improved driveability and reduced fuel consumption. No smoke either!
In work another apprentice who had a 1.9CDTi (120) Astra was telling me how badly I'd been ripped off and a local custom exhaust fitting company remapped his car for Ł150.
It smoked quite heavily, within weeks the EGR was all gummed up and we had to strip the inlet to clean the swirl flaps. It was slower than my Mondeo where as it should have pissed all over it and he was struggling to do 45mpg.
Even to this day though he still tells me how expensive my mapper is and how he had a much better deal.
I see this every day and its getting beyond a joke, at work I get called the dpf guy (:-( lol) when a car or van comes in related to dpf its my job to diagnose, and countless times the customer is telling me that they've bin told to cut it out and get it remapped/dpf removed, don't get me wrong I hate dpfs but they serve a purpose, that same as all the other components, sensors, actuators and filters on a car, I had a 10 plate x5 3.0td come in that had a lot of work done (no garage named) and it had no engine light, no abs light, and run like a bag of shit, I don't have the software stu has but it took me best part of the day to work out his ecu had bin tampered with, my scanner was useless so it was old fashion eyes, and an oscilloscope, I sent him to BMW to get the ecu sorted and not seen the customer since
Tbh a lot of the time it's 50/50 with tuners as the good one will refuse to setup and map a poorly serviced and looked after engine, where as bad tuners will just do as the customer asks regardless of the state of the engine
From what I have seen many of the Vauxhall re-maps are done the way Stu has described how this BMW map was done, that includes some serious engine builds with 450bhp-550bhp as well as standard spec 'go faster' re-maps, many have the standard safety functions disabled or a value of zero to stop the warning light on the dashboard from showing.
Some of the high profile companies with 'good' reputations, not just in the Vauxhall world re-map this way.
Good luck.
Steve
Last edited by steveboyslim; 14-08-2015 at 09:12 AM.
Alter the parameters yes get rid of the safety warning no, AFR is the biggest killer as they disable the lambda on a lot of remaps and there's no way of controlling the AFR through the rev range even if the preset the AFR its always changing
Alter the parameters yes get rid of the safety warning no, AFR is the biggest killer as they disable the lambda on a lot of remaps and there's no way of controlling the AFR through the rev range even if the preset the AFR its always changing
The biggest problem we see is torque limiters ruined by clowns who have no idea what they are changing, or why.
For me... the quality of the calibration is as always down to power delivery, economy the shaping of the torque limiters for area under the graph and driveability and of course how many safety limits have been sensibly moved to allow the extra torque without just removing them altogether.
For example, all BMW's from about 2004 have torque limiters for each gear that give a torque output figure in them that no matter what the rest of the 2000 maps say, limits torque to the output in the table per gear. These are usually the last to be done in development as that allows them to shape the power curve to suit the tranmission fitted (ZF's quoted NM limit for example), weight of chassis (a 7 series can put down more torque in 2nd than a 1 series for example), wheel and tyre options etc.
To someone poking about with clone tools and hex editors it looks like this:
If you have the means to decode the cal, after a few days or weeks of effort you can view it like this and understand what it does in real numbers, (Gears along the top / RPM left... all figures are now in NM at the crank but are subject to another table that calculates internal engine drag, about -130NM at peak torque on this motor IIRC)
All most tuners seem to do is put a huge number in every cell like 10'000 as they probably just have no idea what its for. They just learnt on some forum the car goes faster if they do it. Just flatlining these makes the car feel epic, but of course rewinds 1st and 2nd gear useability back to the 1980's where your powerful car was totally useless on wet roads. Its software like this that makes modern cars so useable with big power as the ecu keeps torque in check until your able to put it down.
Its understanding things like this that makes a good tune worth more money, EVEN if it doesnt make as much "headline" power. I mean, Imagine unleashing all 600ftlb of torque of our 335D stage 2 remap in 1st and 2nd gears. Pointless. Exciting maybe, but ultimately pointless.
Last edited by Stu @ M Developments; 14-08-2015 at 05:26 PM.
On the flip side my 135i always felt a bit strangled in 1st and 2nd....these graphs explain why and how it was prob better for the car but I wonder if it would have felt better but slower if I was left to modulate the throttle. My car also had a quaife diff and wider rubber so it could have put down much more so maybe you could have mapped to the torque that the car could put down
I was looking on your website for an evolution chip for an A class merc stu but I don't see any listed for the w168 model A210 AMG . I only see up to the A190. do you do one perchance....?
You mean a Ł150 remap by the dude who works in the bike department in my local Halfords won't be as good as one of yours?
I see this all to often where someone overnight turns in to the best mapper in the country because they're getting maps from a certain German gentleman or even worse buying a CD of maps off eBay. These people haven't got a clue how to check an engines health with a leakdown, they don't have AFR equipment and they think det is something they're in with the bank... and some people are letting these guy's bench flash their ECU's
Very intresting reading stu but may i ask a geuine question?
What is the difference or should i say how is it done properly for the likes of a dpf/egr/rear o2 sensor delete map? Without just doing what these types of companies do and just make sure the eml doesnt come on? I dread to think how many hours you spend figuring out and creating these maps its a real credit to you and thats why you always manage to stay ahead of the rest.
Stu am I right in thinking that graph shows a base factory map as the torque setting is set the same in each gear through the rev range, its good reading your posts and comments you should make a book on engine safety, and dyno/map common sense
Can you tell me if its possible to check whether or not fault codes have been disabled at home? I dont want to change anything.
My car has not been remapped but I suspect the person who sold it to me was shady.
Depending on what car it is they can be found in the memory, the ecu stores faults and can be found in history when read, unless the data link connection has bin tampered with
Same thing has happened to my neighbours Merc, it's definitely over fuelling as you can see it and smell it but every place he's taken it to says no faults.
How would he go about having the codes reinstalled mate please ?
Same thing has happened to my neighbours Merc, it's definitely over fuelling as you can see it and smell it but every place he's taken it to says no faults.
How would he go about having the codes reinstalled mate please ?
How would he go about having the codes reinstalled mate please ?
It depends on the model year, or rather the fact if a dealer would be able to reflash the engine computer.
Older ecu's cannot be reflashed and maybe the original chip has to be installed again.
That's worrying. There is a ''mobile mapping company'' on my facebook feed and I can't understand how you can map a car without having the rolling road there to do the work like you have? He claims to do all maps individually so no ''generic maps''
That's worrying. There is a ''mobile mapping company'' on my facebook feed and I can't understand how you can map a car without having the rolling road there to do the work like you have? He claims to do all maps individually so no ''generic maps''
Stu was doing mapping long before he had a rolling road.
He did say something about the Lamba as he got 3 from a breakers to try but obviously made no difference
Thanks mate
It needs to be read on live data to see if the lambda is switching or even if the ecu is picking up a current/voltage as the lambda could well of bin deleted if the cars setup to run rich
Stu was doing mapping long before he had a rolling road.
How do you map a car when it's just sat on a driveway though? I don't understand how you can do it properly by plugging in your laptop and spending an hour presumeably changing figures etc without driving the car to see what it needs here and there when it's under load etc?
How do you map a car when it's just sat on a driveway though? I don't understand how you can do it properly by plugging in your laptop and spending an hour presumeably changing figures etc without driving the car to see what it needs here and there when it's under load etc?
You don't sit on a driveway, you go and find a quiet road with a long straight and hope nobody reports you. Its obvious what's going on when you have a mapper sat in the passenger seat with his laptop if you do get stopped.
You don't sit on a driveway, you go and find a quiet road with a long straight and hope nobody reports you. Its obvious what's going on when you have a mapper sat in the passenger seat with his laptop if you do get stopped.
AFAIK a lot of modern ecu's have to be data logged and then map adjusted and driven again. if doing it live on the road I would plead that I a engine management fault was trying to be traced (Not me mapping, meaning man on laptop sat with me)
I only see up to the A190. do you do one perchance....?
Im afraid not, sorry mate.
Originally Posted by creator
What is the difference or should i say how is it done properly for the likes of a dpf/egr/rear o2 sensor delete map? Without just doing what these types of companies do and just make sure the eml doesnt come on? I dread to think how many hours you spend figuring out and creating these maps its a real credit to you and thats why you always manage to stay ahead of the rest.
To do the job properly the ECU needs decompiling to firmware level so you can find the "Equipment" section where the manufacturers calibrator adds in the hardware roll.
Ie "DPF Yes/No - EGR Yes/No" and here you can switch it off and the ecu reverts to running without one as its been told there isnt one. Sounds simple but finding it is far from it.
Failing that, you need to access the EGR calibrations and adjust them to do what you want them to do.
IE: Stay closed. Even this is a minefield due to how many calibrations and switchpoints even a simple system like EGR has. (EG - The car in question has 60. A 2015 vehicle usually has 100+)
Originally Posted by Hobomassiv
Can you tell me if its possible to check whether or not fault codes have been disabled at home? I dont want to change anything.
Not really mate. You can read the codes no problem, but you still have no way to tell if some of the ones that didnt come up have been deleted, or just arent present due to fault condition.
Originally Posted by gingerturbo
Stu am I right in thinking that graph shows a base factory map as the torque setting is set the same in each gear through the rev range, its good reading your posts and comments you should make a book on engine safety, and dyno/map common sense
Yes mate, on that particular car they are the same,probably due to vehicle weight and axle footprint but note they are nicely profiled.
The shape of the curve dictates the severity of power delivery. This is for not only driver experience but also mechanical limitation.
You can move those 622NM's right down to just above idle and this engine will make it no bother, but its a cow to drive quickly as its too much, too soon and teh transmission grumbles like hell!
Originally Posted by Sinbad
How would he go about having the codes reinstalled mate please ?
I will tell him about this thread
He would need to visit someone like ourselves to have the calibration examined.
If they have been deleted we can "Usually" re-install them. That said, as per the opening post, we really dont like being the last to touch stuff like this. You pays your money.... etc etc.
Last edited by Stu @ M Developments; 17-08-2015 at 09:44 AM.
Just in case the boost junkies are getting bored by all this talk of error codes and EGR valves... Here are the boost pressure control switches and tables in an old 2008 Diesel vehicle.
yes - there are 128 of them. The New F11 BMW's have a tad over 200.
Its a fine line eh Stu how far do you go?. The amount of mechanical faults we find at work on all sorts of cars is amazing even a 3000km from new xj220 didnt pass a mot. And as for a fuel injected alfa ( retro fitted by a muppet) was shocking....
How much would it cost to get my bat mobile checked over for the day? (Jeep Commander 3.0 CRD)
I had egr codes showing and went into limp mode quite a lot. Had the egr force closed by James (he also did the remap) and codes removed for it but still went into limp mode but no codes showing.
So probably need codes put back on one at a time and see which it is causing the limp mode?
Only goes into limp mode once or twice a month now where before it was every trip.
Was meant to get it back in shortly after the egr delete but personal circumstances dictated otherwise
13-08-2015, 01:57 PM
Remapping Companies Rant... Disgraceful practices!
(Not me mapping, meaning man on laptop sat with me)
