hi guys, need a bit of help.

me and this other chap are doing an apprenticeship at a garage as mechanics, i have just started and he has been doing it for just over 6 months now. today 1 of the regular customers came in with this xr31 being towed, said that he had just bought a new car and asked if this xr3i was any use to the garage before he got it scrapped, so the garage had it and gave it to me and jamie to try and sort out. its a 1.6 convertible.

its got a fair few problems, doesnt pass the MOT for starters, brakes r fooked, 2 leaking shock absorbers, tyres are like slicks, buckled wheel, silicone and gaffa tape holding the side skirts and wide arches on, few more bits and pieces like that, and the main problem....it wont start!!!!

we have narrowed it down to being a wiring problem somewhere and today have had all the looms out of it and checked them all over and they are all fine, then started messing with the ecu and then we got confused with it.

1 of the feeds into the ecu had an earth and 3 didnt, point number 40 had an earth and 16, 20, and 60 didnt, we put all the dash back in and then for some reason they had an earth and have been fine since but there are a couple of things that we need to know.

is the pip signal supposed to go from the ecu or go to the ecu because at the moment there is no pip signal at all, anyone got any ideas why?

were not worried about anything else at the moment apart from getting it to start because if we cant do that then we might as well scrap it anyway. if me and jamie can get this car running and make it pass the MOT then the owner of the garage said that we can do what we like with it after that, the garage basically gave it to us because its something that they dont mind us completley stripping because it doesnt matter if it neva works again because it doesnt work in the first place.

any help would be much apprechiated,

thanx, ben.

 

could be the black box on the dizzy fooked m8

 

turbo it, and junk the engine thats in it

is it mfi or efi?

 

mate i think ya looking too much into this mate

what is the problem with the car and im assuming its a efi car and so dont have a dizzy ( marc )

now without seeing it its hard to tell but answer me does it have a spark and does it turn over and have the fuel pump priming

with out nowing that then theres no point removing the cars loom and then pin checking the ecu

seriously esplain the problem and say of its efi or not ( as mfi dont have a ecu either ( marc )

 

its an efi.

it has got a spark, fuel is pumping, and it turns over fine.

we did check all the easy stuff and have now just moved onto the wiring, we checked all the easy stuff yesterday.

 

does it have a spark, does it have fuel ????


why have ya taken the loom out to test the loom before testing the easy stuff

 

does it try to catch or just turn over


it does have petrol dont it

 

its an efi.

it has got a spark, fuel is pumping, and it turns over fine.

we did check all the easy stuff and have now just moved onto the wiring, we checked all the easy stuff yesterday (including the cam belt)

 

if its sparking and its got fuel then it would start

seriously mate, if all them are going on then its working, is the plugs firing in order ?????

if a sensor wire wasnt working then the car would either have no spark or no fuel, as ya got both then that aint ya problem

 

check the leads and plugs and crank sensor

im having probs at the min getting my zetec to run and just found out that the plugs are knackered and so are th eleads and very weak sparks

 

the other thing that we have noticed is that if its left for a decent length of time, like if we leave it over night and then start it the next morning then it will run for a few seconds and then cut out again,and then wont start at all unless we leave it overnight again.

 

sounds like a wear spark or possible fueling issue, is it whe the iscv turns off it cuts out ( when the engine warms up)

 

it doesnt get chance to warm up at all, it literally runs for 3 seconds maximum and then dies again.

it may be nothing to do with the problem but why would there be no pip signal at all and is the pip signal supposed to go to the ecu or come from the ecu?

the guy that bought it into the garage said that the last time it was run was sometime last week, he was driving along fine and it cut out and hasnt started since.

 

watch out for that b19 bal he's an apprentice wannabe who strips engines in his livingroom, so assumes your all too dumb to check the easy stuff

what about fuel pressure?

 

no just sooo many times people on here give advice assuming the worst when they dont hear the full storey

most times cars break down for silly reasons

ive got a efi ecu ya can have FOC if ya wanna count module fauilure out


ph and vroooom, dont forget i got access to the infomation and just do what rainbird does,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, i ask the mechanics at work

i aitn got clue what ya mean by "pip" though

 

as i think i said above we have already tried another ecu in it and that didnt solve the problem, still got nothing out of it, its all of the wiring that goes into the ecu thats confusing us and making us think thats the problem is in the wiring because some wires which are supposed to have an earth havent got one, if you follow some wires along to the end they just go to a connector which doesnt plug into anything what so ever but according to the owner they have always been like that and thats how its been since he had the car and it ran fine before.

if i can get me a digi cam then i will take some pics of it.

 

stupid question

but have you checked the inertia swetich (fuel cut ) in the spare wheel well

could be faulty lol

happened to me on mine i ripped my whole alarm system out thinking it was that that played up and then turned out to be the switch lol

 

the pip will come from the EDIS module. the EDIS will get the signal from the CPS and have the output for the coil packs... it will send the pip to the ECU and the ECU will work out the correct advance and send the SAW back to edis, which will adjust the timing of rth spark.

it;s dont like this because the EECIV unit isnt fast enought to calculate the spark real-time... they needed a second module with enough processing power to sort out the dizzyless ignition (thats wheer the EDIS comes in)

if the EDIS module receives no SAW then it will default into its own little limp home mode and fire the coilpack with a static advance of 10degrees. this could be your problem. it's got a spark so it'll fire up, but its running suck wank advance that its not enough to keep it running.

also get yourself a fuel pressure gauge on the fuel line... it could be that the pump is shit, and itll fire up on the pressure in the rail but the pump cant get enough in to keep the car running. oh and take the petrol cap off as the breather can get blocked and itll have issues (altho not as severe as what youre describing) get yourself a look at Autodata (im assuming the garage has a copy?) and check all the wiring diagrams in there... make sure youre getting the correct signals from all the management sensors...

oh and gine, fuel + spark + crank does NOT = fire up... the spark could be in the wrong phase

 

hi jim,

we have looked in the autodata books today and even had the haynes manual out looking at all of the diagram's.

the ecu is supposed to pick up the pip signal to tell it to start from what we read today, its getting a signal for the ignition but not to fire, we sent the ecu off somewhere today to have it looked at, the guys are bringing it back tomorrow so we'll soon find out if thats the problem or not.

we tried another EDIS in it today and it was still the same so its not that, i wish you could see the wiring on it though, then you would see what made us think thats its the wiring cant get any pics of it unfortunately though.

 

what like igniton leads on wrong as due to it being a wasted spark theres too many sparks there anyway

so lets recap, if hes done all the easy tests the he will beable to diagnose the hard stuff

chasing the loom should be the last thing on the list after sesting all the sensors and general parts first


oh and dont say cam timing as even when thats out it usually starts inless its sooo far out then in that case its obvious

now back to the point if all the simple stuf is checked ya need to get another car to compare em on mate

 

ye but if this doesnt start or its gona need too much spending on it then we are gona scrap it because thats what the other guy was going to do with it anyway.

need to hope that we get another customer in with an xr3i 2 nick a few parts off to try.

 

a xr2i or orion efi thats been smashed up will cost ya 50 quid on ebay

 

really?

got any links?

 

seach for em mate, i dont know ya want us to tell ya the problem, find the cars that ya need on ebay,,,,,,,, would ya like me tio drive the car for ya too

 

well yes seen as im not 17 yet

 

This is all to familiar to be true

https://passionford.com/forum/viewto...045269#2045269

I got the same dam problem!!!!

Jim Galbally, Yep, Ditto

Anyone help us both PMSL

 

i'll have another play with ours at work 2moro, cant get any worse can it, it was gona be scrapped anyway lol.

 

be a shame to scrap it, would make a good first car if it was fixed up nice enough for you to want to spend ŁŁ on it (less it's proper fcuked)

 

Don't know if it been said yet BUT i would check the main fuel Pump since the tank fuel pump will feed a decent amount of fuel but not at a very high pressure, the symptoms sound like it could be this. check the replay, then the wires to the fuel pump. and then the pump obviously. same thing happend on mother- volvo spend hours trying to find the problem in the end just the main fuel pump had gone.

 

[quote="ben1"]its an efi.

yeah mate turbo potential as said id just get hold of a turbo lump from a fiesta turbo and build the car between the two of you,im sure as they say "many hands will make light work"!

 

What year is the car? Is it defo efi cos it sounds more like an mfi problem i had in the past. I had a Fuel pressure regulator go tits so the metering head was getting no fuel at all. The car would briefly fire up on the cold start injector cos the fuel goes directly to it rather than through the pressure regulator and metering head.

 

S1, from the fact that it had an ECU it has to be an EFi mate... the MFIs have nothing of the sort

 

got it started sounds pretty dam good as well, would do with a 3 inch pipe tho lol.

we got the ECU back this morning and it was fine.

the problem was that although the PIP signal was being sent to the ECU it was at the wrong voltage. there had been a slight voltage leak between the wire that the PIP signal is sent down and the wire that the SAW is sent down (due to it getting quite hot at some point so i have been told) so it wasnt giving the ECU the wrong voltage so it wouldnt fire.

thats why it confused us before because we knew that the signal was getting to the ECU but we didnt no before that it was the wrong voltage, problem solved now anyway, got 1 of the other guys to take me out in it earlier seen as im only 16 so arent supposed to be driving it, brakes are shite tho lol, it would be quicker to let it run out of petrol than to apply the brakes and try to stop in time

apart from that it wasnt too bad, have wripped the wide arches off so that they can be put on propperly and have started replacing all the brake pipes now so its up on the ramp at the moment.

at least its running now anyway, thanx for the help guys

 

cool glad ya got it running

told ya its usually a silly thing that causes the issue, they are prob the worst things but when they found and sorted then the car will run mint

only scrap a car when ya can see the conditon of the bores with out removing the head


fair play

 

glad its working

on another note, i think you did very well with your methods of investigation. not many 16 year old trainee mechanics would have a fookin clue what a PIP and SAW signal are let alone how to work out whats wrong with them

infact i dont think many "normal" mechanics know that kinda stuff :Cry:

 

thanx jim haynes manual always helps out a bit lol.

ok this is the list of what it needs doing to it now then....

disks,
pads,
brake pipes,
rear drums,
shocks,
respraying,
most of the interior,
dash,
completley re-wiring,
tyres,
a wheel,
roof looks a bit tatty,
rear lights dont work at all,
boot lock is rusted shut,
rear arches r a bit rusty,
quite a bit of play in the steering.

and the good news is that jamie doesnt want anything to do with it because he said that if we are going to share it then it means him putting half towards the parts and he doesnt want to so i got 2 options....

im having driving lessons for my birthday in december so i will be after a car so i could either....

start working on this xr3i and make it a road worth car again or buy a mini to get around in and then slowly build the xr3i into a track car with wahtever money i have got, that would also save buying any interior for it

 

to be honest mate the XR3i will be near un-insurable... so i wouldnt bother doing it up for yourself

i had an XR3i when i passed my test

it cost me 3 GRAND to insure it third party

 

i wouldnt use it for a decent amount of time anyway, just slowly turn it into a track car buying bits at a time then hopefully use it in a couple of years time, by the time its done i would be able the afford the insurance, i could afford to insure it now but dont wana spend that much insuring a first car really, thats why a cheap mini would come in handy to get about in while building the 3i.

 

you could pick up a minter XR3i for less than the cost of new discs n pads for yours.

is not financially viable to do yours up mate.

however, as a learning experience / fun car to do up it should be just fine

 

thats wot i was thinking, will teach me more about it and if it all goes wrong then i havent lost anything.