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Old 26-06-2005 | 12:08 AM
  #81  
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Bloody hell I'm knackered.

Just got back after what I thought was a top day.

Did about 5 qualifying laps. Lost it on the 1st one (trying to hard), then after the 2nd one I was 2nd behind Gareth, then as it dried I slowly dropped back, although I improved my own time by 5 seconds, I ended up 5th overall and 1st in the RWD.

I couldn't believe it, I was over the foookin moon. As soon as I saw the weather I new it would be a 4wd paradise, but the little Lotus held on well. There was quite a long straight from the start line of the qualifying and I lost out big time there to the mega pwoerful 4wd stuff, but I clawed it back through the twisties.

My own little personal goal was to make the finals, so I was well chuffed when I did.

By now the track was dry and the circuit used for the final, just had to many straights for me to compete. I was only at the top of 5th by the end of the start finish straight before dropping down for the chicane (roughly 125mph) Gareth was flat in 7th so I reckon about 160+. He then simply thought about braking, dropped one cog and went through flat in 6th and off down the 2nd very long straight.

I guess 200BHP just wasn't enough on the day, especially as my new spoiler and stuff add 275kg of downforce at 100mph, so at 125mph, the car weighed almost 1100kg's and the little metro engine in the back couldn't hack it.

Daz you bar-steward for that pic. I hadn't broken down, the car ran faultlessly all day, I was just pushing it in the queue to give it chance to cool down.

Drivers and cars of the day for me were:

Gareth Lloyd - Total God
Mike - Did really well in his prodomonently road car and as he said drove there and drove back
Renton - qualified 17th and got into the finals as people above him dropped out with problems. Plus he only did one qualifying lap in a car he had never driven before!! He then brings it in 4th!!! I have to say though it was SOOOOOOOOO fast down the bloody straights

From a competitors point of view, I thought the day went very well. Yes they had issues and everything was running a little late, due to the Safety crews being stuck in the M1 crash queues. But all in all a TOP DAY and I'll be back again next year!!!!!

Old 26-06-2005 | 12:16 AM
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well done fella
Old 26-06-2005 | 03:25 AM
  #83  
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I had a top day, my mornign started a bit crap and after 2 journeys to Rockinham I finally got in there at about 1.30.

drifting was very good indeed, thought the p100 with a v6 was quite

well done to Gareth, Mike, Sean and Renton, some awesome driving there and really put on a great show for us all, I stayed right till the end and saw everything,

I thought it really was good, it was cold but the grandstand seats were perfect for viewing,

Did anyone see the new Porsche Carrera GT ! nice
Old 26-06-2005 | 05:17 AM
  #84  
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Sean

I think you deserve a pat on the back mate your lotus did very very well when you consider how many high powered ,well sorted cars there.


Mike/Dan/Gareth

big well done i'm so happy the fords did so well LONG LIVE THE COSSIE



marco

p.s Sean i'll sort the drive out just waiting for the gaffer to have a look
Old 26-06-2005 | 07:01 AM
  #85  
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WELL DONE MIKE AND SEAN.


rk tunin is Ron kiddell,
Old 26-06-2005 | 07:20 AM
  #86  
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Spot on Mike, a good day for sure. I think next year it will be even better. Gareth's car was awesome as usual, like a bloody bullet

Good to catch up with you guys again, even with the Cossie long gone and now in the Jap crap it's all still good friendly stuff.

Kev
Old 26-06-2005 | 07:33 AM
  #87  
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We arrived, we CONQUERED, we left

Qualifying started wet and we (well, Gareth) set the pace with a 1.16. The fastest anyone else managed at that point was a 1.22.
Then the dry lines started to appear and before long the track had got fast enough for Rocket Ronnie to take the lead with a 1.15. So we went out and banged in a 1.12 to keep them on their toes... Then the track got completely dry and the pretenders managed to get to 1.14 (still 2 seconds of the pace).. so we popped in a 1.08 just for good measure. P1 in Qualifying - an excellent result.

After that we waited for the 20 minute 'Open Pit Lane' practice for the Time Attack. During the wait, it seems Abbey Motorsport (Looking after Ronnies Skyline) were getting concerned One of their mechanics came over and said they could dial in an extra 300bhp, thanks to Nitrous.......

Time for the practice session and I timed Ronnie and Gareth over one particular lap when they were both out together. Ronnie 1.35... Gareth 1.32.
Then unfortunately Ronnies car... lunched itself. Maybe they'd dialled in a little too much loopy juice eh...

In the final attack round (one flying lap) Gareth went out first and set the pace - a blistering 1.30. The other folks went out and could manage at best 1.35. Lots of cars put in 1.36/37 times so it was very close in the mid-field. I think the slowest was 1.41.

2nd place went to a big Sumo Skyline, and 3rd place went to Steve Rance in his lovely GT3RS, the quickest of the Porsches on the day.

So we took the honours for overall GT Battle Time Attack, and winner 4WD class.

We ran the car at 75% max. We figured we had so much in the bag we needn't risk 100% and having something break. At 100% boost the car pushes out between 560-580bhp.
Eat that silly Skylines

Overall, a cracking day - even if it did starts out a little disorganised... and cold and wet.

Old 26-06-2005 | 07:50 AM
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An excellent result for Gareth - well done again mate. Good to see you too Mike, an fantastic result too
Old 26-06-2005 | 07:54 AM
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Well, here's my thoughts on the day.
I had an early start at 6am to get there and it rained/drizzled all the way. I got there just after 8 (would have been earlier apart from the fact I followed a bunch of Civic Type-Rs who were inventing their own much longer route!! ).
I'd never been before and Rockingham is quite an impressive site - had a wander round and have got to say was initially allowed to walk anywhere including into the pits/paddock area where I saw Mike R, Sean, Brom and Paul Eggleton. Everything was a bit slow to start and it was still drizzling quite heavily so I thought it would equal out the power discrepancies between the faster more powerful cars and some of the slower ones.

After a while the practise started and as I was weatching from the roof of the pits I was a bit disappointed as I couldn't really see much apart from the start line and first bend and the finish bend. I did get to nosey at some of the competitors cars close up which was interesting for me as I hadn't seen them before - Gareth Lloyd certainly seems to go for the minimalist school of instrument display as he only seemed to have one gauge ( Someone later told me this was a gap-ometer - it tells him the gap in seconds to the second placed car behind him so he can simply go a bit faster to increase the gap...). By contrast some of the Evos and Skylines had 747 cockpits with absolutely everything monitored.
Sean's car was very fast and I noticed a few more people coming to have a look when he was qualified in 2nd at one point and fastest rwd car ( I believe next was a GT3 RS Porsche about 3/100ths of a second behind? )

When qualifying was taking place I went over to the grandstand above the start point - I went right to the top and the view was so much better and I felt a lot better about it from a spectating point of view. You could see the whole handling circuit and I was able to take video ( its got a 20x zoom ) of complete laps for Gareth Lloyd, Mike R and Sean .....except for Sean's car which is quite low and disappeared behind a grass bank at one point out of view ). The drizzle had stopped by the end of qualifying but it came too late for the big Vipers, M3 CSLs and a few of the Skylines who seemed to find the qualifying circuit a bit tight and greasy to put the power down. Gareth Lloyd seemed to be able to take a few seconds off his time everytime he went out - making a few little adjustments to the ARB and stuff- he also seemed a genuinely nice bloke who was quite happy to tell people what he was doing on the car and where he we was finding the circuit a bit tricky.

When it came to the final I felt a bit sorry for Sean as the circuit was changed to include a much longer start/finish straight which I knew ( as he did) his Exige would struggle on compared to the speeds of Rocket Ron's and Andy Barnes Skylines and the Porsches. I thought the Cossies would find it a bit of a disadvantage as well ( how wrong!) - Gareth Lloyd's Escort simply looked phenomenal as he went through the first kink after the flying start. Rocket Ron's Skyline didn't run in the end but Andy Barnes Skyline did "look and sound " tremendously fast but in the end was almost 4 or 5 seconds slower than the Cossie.
Even though Sean's car looked slow on the long straight he did very well on the twistier bits and didn't come last out of the 15 finalists with Evos and Skylines behind him. Mike R's car looked very fast on the twisty bits - I would guess he lost most of his time on the long straight but like he said, not too bad for a car with interior!
The Reyland Cosworth looked pretty fast on the straight and was obviously tring on the twisties as he came in 4th

It was interesting to see Seans tyres after qualifying - they still looked nearly new because of the light weight and balance of the car - Rocket Ron's Skyline's tyres looked like they had been though a right ordeal on the other hand.

By the time it it came to go home I had really enjoyed the day and meeting a few new peeps - driving home, on reflection I would go again especially as I know where to sit and spectate and know not to wear shorts in the belief the day would end up sunny and warm .

I think all the Ford boys did us proud considering the machinery out on the day so well done to everyone who took part

Got to say though, the Vipers are so noisy was surprised they got through the noise restrictions.

Anyone know anything about the similar event planned for Donnington later in the year??
Old 26-06-2005 | 07:57 AM
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He can certainly pedal that motor
Sorry Sean
Renton
Mike your car looked on par with gareths a bit more power
and well who knows
Old 26-06-2005 | 09:07 AM
  #91  
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I'd actually rather have less weight, as Gareth's car weighs 1240kg . If mine did (weighs 1395kg in track form - tool kit, spare wheel and MDF parcel shelf removed), then it would automatically improve everything.

However, that isn't going to happen, as it would mean stripping out all the interior, swapping the doors over for earlier Escort ones (without side impact bars) and removing all the safetly features (ABS, twin airbags etc). I could "probably" get it down to just under 1300ish Kg then - what a weapon it would be , just totally impractical .

I think I'd then need Gareth to drive it, as I'm not "that" good .
Old 26-06-2005 | 09:24 AM
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Originally Posted by CSLMan
Eat that silly Skylines
Love the quote! Superb result as usual guys....Well Done!

I take it that is Andy.

Cheers - Sunny.
Old 26-06-2005 | 10:12 AM
  #93  
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Awesome, Well done Mike Lee and Gareth!

And sean
Old 26-06-2005 | 10:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Mike Rainbird
I'd actually rather have less weight, as Gareth's car weighs 1240kg . If mine did (weighs 1395kg in track form - tool kit, spare wheel and MDF parcel shelf removed), then it would automatically improve everything.

However, that isn't going to happen, as it would mean stripping out all the interior, swapping the doors over for earlier Escort ones (without side impact bars) and removing all the safetly features (ABS, twin airbags etc). I could "probably" get it down to just under 1300ish Kg then - what a weapon it would be , just totally impractical .

I think I'd then need Gareth to drive it, as I'm not "that" good .
Mike, for what your car is (Road Going) I thought i went superbly all day long, looked nice and flat through the corners and you could visually see (even from the grandstand ) that you carried more speed through the corners than some of the other cars!

Would love to own a car like that, or go out in one! pmsl

Old 26-06-2005 | 11:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Mike Rainbird
I
I think I'd then need Gareth to drive it, as I'm not "that" good .
I'll drive it for you hun!!

We were at the track exit into the paddock for a good hour with Greg desperately trying to stop everyone for a picci... I was waiving at you like a mad woman... and you completely, and I mean COMPLETELY ignored us!!
Old 26-06-2005 | 11:09 AM
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Did you have a black pf jacket/fleece on Mrs Frog, reckon I saw you about with Berks RS Group on it!?
Old 26-06-2005 | 11:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Dan
Did you have a black pf jacket/fleece on Mrs Frog, reckon I saw you about with Berks RS Group on it!?
That was me hun... flamboyant red hair too!!
Old 26-06-2005 | 11:18 AM
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lol Not too flamboyant, quite subtle compared to some abou yesterday!

I was stood behind you in the queue for the Diner, had a white jumper and got blonde Highlights! lol Was stood there with my mate in his short's and T-shirt! He was freezing all day the plonker!
Old 26-06-2005 | 11:21 AM
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LOL LOL I remember you!!

Why didn't you say who you were?? You even whispered in his ear at one point!! Just after Greg was telling Andy (rsnissan) we had been looking at a 3dr on ebay (that someone of here bought in the end... ) the night before and that maybe running 3 cossies would be pushing it a bit!!
Old 26-06-2005 | 11:22 AM
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Well done to EVERYONE who took part

Regarding people thinking it was shit=

Well it WAS shit when it was wet and raining, like any event would be (Central RS Day in the rain anyone? ), but in the afternoon once it dried out it was spot on

Viewing was good from the main stands, fairly far away from some of it, but your so high up you can see everything

Drifting was SHITE when it was WET (TOLD YOU LEWIS ) as you can drift properly in the wet, any kind of speed equals spinning of rubbish, and no tyre smoke at all.
But once it dried out it was foookin spot on

The dry demo runs of Ken Nomura and Kazama at half3 were unbelivable, driving like you wouldnt belive, and fuckloads of tyre smoke.

Time attack final practice and time attack finals were SPOT ON as it was dry and they used the full circuit
Infact time attack final practice was mad with them all on track together battling it out, mental cossies and skylines giving it some SERIOUS welly

Granted I had a "slight" advantage as I had a media bib thing so could go anywhere the marshals could
Infact I watched the 2nd drift demo from the pit corner TYRE WALL The D1 car coming past less than 4foot from the wall mega sideways a few feet from each other at 100mph+ was a mental experience
Watched the Time Attack Finals from the armco at the esses Mikey Rainbow steaming round there with the ALS on was pretty fookin cool

I also had the incredibly rare/bizarre/lucky gift of being allowed inside the D1 pit garage Not even the normal media was allowed in there but I blagged me and the camera man guy we I was with whos doing our next DVD in
Got footage and photos of me with the D1 and Option guys, and a slightly but jokey bit of the D1 guys either side of me fondling me (seriously ).

Most the promo birds there wernt up to that much, barring ONE who was 100% minter than mint, the 1 SRB Power bird (not the dirty looking ginge with the big baps, her mate), but she was Miss GB 2004 I have her mobile digits here too, but hey (no PMs for 'em you pervs, they for work ).


Got some SERIOUSLY dodgy footage for the DVD of I think it was the TOYO bird (they tiny lil dark haired bird in black) spanking me She asked what I wanted her to do for the camera, I replied with "I dunno, whatever, Il shag you right now on the floor if you want" honestly (im a shy as ever was some funny shit like that all day actually ) and she goes "I know, il spank you" I thought she was gonna try pull my keks down and I was getting ready to run But she didnt go quite that far, but I still looked like a right plonker

All in all tho a fookin spot on day, and the people who went home when it was wet and started crying about it on here REALLY missed out IMO.

It will be possibly event of the year next time IF its dry

Even got home in 1hr (thanks to me driving the WRX all the way back at 120mph+ ) so went out and got smashed and some veeeeery interesting shit hapend then too
Old 26-06-2005 | 11:31 AM
  #101  
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Originally Posted by MrsFrog
LOL LOL I remember you!!

Why didn't you say who you were?? You even whispered in his ear at one point!! Just after Greg was telling Andy (rsnissan) we had been looking at a 3dr on ebay (that someone of here bought in the end... ) the night before and that maybe running 3 cossies would be pushing it a bit!!
lol Yeah I mentioned to him I noticed your jacket or something I think, I'm not that outspoken (unless i've been drinking! ) I would have said hi but didn't have a clue who you was! lol

I'll know you guys next time tho hey!



Steve, your fookin nuts! There was a few mint birds around, but the rest
Old 26-06-2005 | 11:38 AM
  #102  
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Mike1, great review of the day
Old 26-06-2005 | 11:39 AM
  #103  
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I'm STILL not home yet


decided to stop over at a mates in Cambridge


Awesome event, i managed to take over 500 piccies (quite a few are crap lol) but some are Awesome

especially the 15-20 i managed of the dirty hoes with my new digital SLR camera




when i get home tonight, ill upload everything to some webspace, fook, the camera is that good you can see the girls spiders legs hanging out from 50 yards away


i stayed till the end too, WELL WORTH STAYING imo, and well worth looking for a good vantage point like we did, was in shorts all day sat at the top of grandstand

ful report later, off punting in Cambridge
Old 26-06-2005 | 11:45 AM
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Just thought id mention here too (tho started a new thread here- https://passionford.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1842038) that Cossie powered Fords won both Time Attack AND Drifting

Go shonky old Fords, we love them so
Old 26-06-2005 | 11:47 AM
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Any results from the FWD group?
Old 26-06-2005 | 11:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Rossco
Any results from the FWD group?
What FWDs? There was a Nova, a Civic, and a Saxo IIRC, obviously none came anywhere to note, infact I only remember seing the Nova on track so for all I know it was the only one
FWD rocks
Old 26-06-2005 | 11:54 AM
  #107  
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Just to add to what some have said i think the line up of cars was great not just one type got a real good spread of jap,cossies and super cars .
However i think they should consider changing the venue, for hours the only thing you could really see was drifting (not my cup of tea except for the jap guys) and did see much of the time attack becuase it was not visible from anywhere. Somewhere like silverstone would be good because you can get close to the cars going round the track at all different points in the circuit. Anyone with me on this?
Old 26-06-2005 | 11:56 AM
  #108  
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Doubt if they could afford Silverstone.

And it was only PRACTICE where you couldnt see Time Attack brilliantly (tho still could from the grandstands), in the Finals (and Final Practice) they used the full Circuit including the main straight bit that was used for Drifting

In all honesty Time Attack isnt so easy to get into as its 1 car at a time anyhow and almost total grip, so its not exactly action packed for a spectator anyhow (Barring the finals and final practice anyhow)
Old 26-06-2005 | 12:34 PM
  #109  
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Originally Posted by Kevin Atkins
Spot on Mike, a good day for sure. I think next year it will be even better. Gareth's car was awesome as usual, like a bloody bullet

Good to catch up with you guys again, even with the Cossie long gone and now in the Jap crap it's all still good friendly stuff.

Kev
Kevin

Good to meet up with you again mate , you know it's just a bit of banter on the car seen your car was going pretty quick aswell

you have to take me out for a few laps and i'll take you out in the 3dr

Marco
Old 26-06-2005 | 12:35 PM
  #110  
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went down yesterday and had a really good day out, shame about the weather in the morning but once the track dried up there was some top action

congrats to the Fords who came out on top

roll on next year! just hope they can organise the weather a bit better
Old 26-06-2005 | 12:45 PM
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I actually had a very cool day

I appreciate that it was the first one, but you've got to feel for the organisers - the first patch of rain in two weeks of glorious sunshine, so it obviously affected numbers, and the drifiting.

I could write a detailed review, but just to say, the visibilty for the time attack practice is not good. Fine when the whole track is being used, but to be stuck at the top of the granstand watching a little dot driving round the track is not much fun.

I don't think the venue is condusive to spectators at all really - whether or not the grandstands were full, you are always going to struggle at Rockingham, as 90% of the track in the final isn't visible, and 100% isn't visible for the practice.

Aside from that, the venue is superb as far as facilities are concerned - I can see the attraction there, as the whole venue is so much more professionally run compared to other tracks etc.

Bottom line is that any venue where spectating is poor (much like Bedford) will never attract big crowds, as there's just not enough visible action to keep people entertained. Silverstone would have seemed the perfect venue to me.............

Aside from all that, those two jap boys doing the drifting were off the charts - even Marco was impressed! Most people probably only got to see the morning show in the wet, but when they came out in the dry - oh my lord

Never seen proper drifting in real life - that's some skill involved there - was worth going just to see that for me!

Not a bad day - much that needs to be improved, and I would consider a change of venue, BUT the foundations are there for a very professional event. I will be there next year, but I hope some of the problems will be addressed.

Well done to the organisers for putting their neck on the line, and actually starting something with lots of potential.
Old 26-06-2005 | 12:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Dan
lol Yeah I mentioned to him I noticed your jacket or something I think, I'm not that outspoken (unless i've been drinking! ) I would have said hi but didn't have a clue who you was! lol

I'll know you guys next time tho hey!
Don't worry Dan, our lot willl get all shyness out of you very quickly!!
Old 26-06-2005 | 12:54 PM
  #113  
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Originally Posted by MrsFrog
Originally Posted by Dan
lol Yeah I mentioned to him I noticed your jacket or something I think, I'm not that outspoken (unless i've been drinking! ) I would have said hi but didn't have a clue who you was! lol

I'll know you guys next time tho hey!
Don't worry Dan, our lot willl get all shyness out of you very quickly!!
lol Thats what worries me! I'm at alot of shows so will certainly get the chance!
Old 26-06-2005 | 12:58 PM
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Originally Posted by RichardPON
those two jap boys doing the drifting were off the charts - even Marco was impressed! Most people probably only got to see the morning show in the wet, but when they came out in the dry - oh my lord
I was lucky enough to be able to stand on the tyre wall at the end of the pit straight with the snappers on the afternoon dry demo, and no word of a lie, it brought chills down my spine watching it THAT close up, was off the charts and then a bit more

Everyone was well into it, even the snappers was going mad, was unbelivable from that close, literally 4foot away
Old 26-06-2005 | 01:01 PM
  #115  
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Too right Steve - fookin made the day for me that did.

Only problem was, it made all the drift competitors look very lame in comparison
Old 26-06-2005 | 01:05 PM
  #116  
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it's a NEW show!!!!!!!,
just like TOTB, the first show was pretty poor, NOW look at it???

those who stopped to the end will all agree, it was a good show,

TC
Old 26-06-2005 | 01:57 PM
  #117  
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Originally Posted by Itsmeagain
Well done to EVERYONE who took part

Regarding people thinking it was shit=

Well it WAS shit when it was wet and raining, like any event would be (Central RS Day in the rain anyone? ), but in the afternoon once it dried out it was spot on

Viewing was good from the main stands, fairly far away from some of it, but your so high up you can see everything

Drifting was SHITE when it was WET (TOLD YOU LEWIS ) as you can drift properly in the wet, any kind of speed equals spinning of rubbish, and no tyre smoke at all.
But once it dried out it was foookin spot on

The dry demo runs of Ken Nomura and Kazama at half3 were unbelivable, driving like you wouldnt belive, and fuckloads of tyre smoke.

Time attack final practice and time attack finals were SPOT ON as it was dry and they used the full circuit
Infact time attack final practice was mad with them all on track together battling it out, mental cossies and skylines giving it some SERIOUS welly

Granted I had a "slight" advantage as I had a media bib thing so could go anywhere the marshals could
Infact I watched the 2nd drift demo from the pit corner TYRE WALL The D1 car coming past less than 4foot from the wall mega sideways a few feet from each other at 100mph+ was a mental experience
Watched the Time Attack Finals from the armco at the esses Mikey Rainbow steaming round there with the ALS on was pretty fookin cool

I also had the incredibly rare/bizarre/lucky gift of being allowed inside the D1 pit garage Not even the normal media was allowed in there but I blagged me and the camera man guy we I was with whos doing our next DVD in
Got footage and photos of me with the D1 and Option guys, and a slightly but jokey bit of the D1 guys either side of me fondling me (seriously ).

Most the promo birds there wernt up to that much, barring ONE who was 100% minter than mint, the 1 SRB Power bird (not the dirty looking ginge with the big baps, her mate), but she was Miss GB 2004 I have her mobile digits here too, but hey (no PMs for 'em you pervs, they for work ).


Got some SERIOUSLY dodgy footage for the DVD of I think it was the TOYO bird (they tiny lil dark haired bird in black) spanking me She asked what I wanted her to do for the camera, I replied with "I dunno, whatever, Il shag you right now on the floor if you want" honestly (im a shy as ever was some funny shit like that all day actually ) and she goes "I know, il spank you" I thought she was gonna try pull my keks down and I was getting ready to run But she didnt go quite that far, but I still looked like a right plonker

All in all tho a fookin spot on day, and the people who went home when it was wet and started crying about it on here REALLY missed out IMO.

It will be possibly event of the year next time IF its dry

Even got home in 1hr (thanks to me driving the WRX all the way back at 120mph+ ) so went out and got smashed and some veeeeery interesting shit hapend then too
So what you're saying is that if you are part of the organisation, a journo or a photographer. Its a a great event.

Can anyone remember what TOTB1 was like compared to the others?
Old 26-06-2005 | 02:28 PM
  #118  
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I can well remember the 1st TOTB,It was f*cking brill,great cars,well plannned and run,and well attended but not too packed,and unlike TOTB3 it wasnt full of chav's,but people who had a good keen knowledge of performance cars.Regards Micky
Old 26-06-2005 | 02:36 PM
  #119  
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Originally Posted by Micky
I can well remember the 1st TOTB,It was f*cking brill,great cars,well plannned and run,and well attended but not too packed,and unlike TOTB3 it wasnt full of chav's,but people who had a good keen knowledge of performance cars.Regards Micky
Well said mate, perfectly put!

I thought that the first TOTB was fucking fantastic, but from then on its gone downhill, the third one was shite IMO
Old 26-06-2005 | 05:28 PM
  #120  
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Mmmmm... and we're going to TOTB 4 this year.... oh dear...


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