Need garage to fit new rear bushes and Mike rainbird shims..
27-04-2005, 01:54 PM
#81
Originally Posted by Mike Rainbird
Steve,
Why don't you measure the toe / camber of the car you were going to fit them on, re-fit them and then come and report the results
.
Why don't you measure the toe / camber of the car you were going to fit them on, re-fit them and then come and report the results
.
27-04-2005, 01:55 PM
#82
Chip,
All the shims do is correct the poor geometry that the standard car is afflicted with and nothing more.
The beam, not only does this, but due to it's relocated pick-up points (as near as damn it 6°), when the wheel travels up and down in the arch (when looked at from behind the car), the wheel stays perfectly parrallel. This means that the wheel stays flat to the ground for better grip in ALL scenarios.
The standard set up, if you look at the car from the rear, the up and down movement proscribes an arc and it has positive camber and full droop and negative camber at full compression
. This means that with suspension travel, the camber is CONSTANTLY changing 
. The Zoo / Ahmed set up not only eliminates this, but also reduces the disparity in the difference between the front and rear roll centres, as well as removes the OE tendancy to understeer, as the rear is always trying to push the front end on.
It takes a small while to adjust your driving style, as you get so used to the shit standard rear that you end up driving round the short-comings and it does feel different. In fact, because you're not fighting the car, it actually feels slower! In a back to back test, Gareth Lloyd knocked 2 seconds off his best lap time (can't remember what circuit) but came in thinking he was slower.
I'm sure Brom-bear can add his two-penneth as well
.
Steve,
This would only work on the trailing arm arrangement as per Cossies etc.
All the shims do is correct the poor geometry that the standard car is afflicted with and nothing more.
The beam, not only does this, but due to it's relocated pick-up points (as near as damn it 6°), when the wheel travels up and down in the arch (when looked at from behind the car), the wheel stays perfectly parrallel. This means that the wheel stays flat to the ground for better grip in ALL scenarios.
The standard set up, if you look at the car from the rear, the up and down movement proscribes an arc and it has positive camber and full droop and negative camber at full compression
. This means that with suspension travel, the camber is CONSTANTLY changing . The Zoo / Ahmed set up not only eliminates this, but also reduces the disparity in the difference between the front and rear roll centres, as well as removes the OE tendancy to understeer, as the rear is always trying to push the front end on.It takes a small while to adjust your driving style, as you get so used to the shit standard rear that you end up driving round the short-comings and it does feel different. In fact, because you're not fighting the car, it actually feels slower! In a back to back test, Gareth Lloyd knocked 2 seconds off his best lap time (can't remember what circuit) but came in thinking he was slower
.I'm sure Brom-bear can add his two-penneth as well
.Steve,
This would only work on the trailing arm arrangement as per Cossies etc
.
Fookin Royal Mail )
27-04-2005, 02:03 PM
#84
All makes perfect sense mike, thanks.
Might have to think about sticking one of them on my shopping list then once the 1.6 GL is back up and running soon.
Brom, how long is it generally between ordering an recieving a beam, ie is it something i need to order 6 months in advance or is it just a week or two or whatever?
Might have to think about sticking one of them on my shopping list then once the 1.6 GL is back up and running soon.
Brom, how long is it generally between ordering an recieving a beam, ie is it something i need to order 6 months in advance or is it just a week or two or whatever?
27-04-2005, 02:06 PM
#85
Mike, the stub axle is still being altered @ the back though, not the top or bottom.
As it goes up it could create positive camber i guess, but will create toe-out also so not sure what handling effect this would have.
As it goes up it could create positive camber i guess, but will create toe-out also so not sure what handling effect this would have.
27-04-2005, 02:07 PM
#86
sorry pon
pon and the lad from bristol with the alaris blue escoz
chip
best way to explane is see for your self
i know u like playing with cars
take ya shocker of the rear so just your coil spring is on the back
no get somebody to shag your missis on the tail gate
and watch what the wheel does as u look at it threw bump and rebound
you will be amased how much the wheel moves
pon and the lad from bristol with the alaris blue escoz
chip
best way to explane is see for your self
i know u like playing with cars
take ya shocker of the rear so just your coil spring is on the back
no get somebody to shag your missis on the tail gate
and watch what the wheel does as u look at it threw bump and rebound
you will be amased how much the wheel moves
27-04-2005, 02:14 PM
#87
Steve,
I can't comment, as I have only tested it on a trailing arm set up, but it gives more toe-in on compression, which helps bring the car back into line when the arse end is out.
You need to try a normal Cossie with the shims before and after and you can the not only see the difference they have, but feel it. For some reason, I always thought you had bought the shims for Ollie's Sapphire
(my fault for assuming), I didn't realise you had put them on your car . If you had told me they were for yours, I would not have sold them to you, as I have no idea how they might affect your set up .
I can't comment, as I have only tested it on a trailing arm set up, but it gives more toe-in on compression, which helps bring the car back into line when the arse end is out.
You need to try a normal Cossie with the shims before and after and you can the not only see the difference they have, but feel it. For some reason, I always thought you had bought the shims for Ollie's Sapphire
(my fault for assuming), I didn't realise you had put them on your car . If you had told me they were for yours, I would not have sold them to you, as I have no idea how they might affect your set up .
27-04-2005, 02:15 PM
#88
Will do brom, my mid engined nova does the same thing, cause its based around a mcpherson strut calibra front end, which suffers quite badly from toe adjustment when it leans, sadly short of a fairly major redesign to trailing arms (which there arent any mounting points for currently) it means im stuck with passive steering rear end which isnt the best thing in the world for handling!
So i basically end up with bump steer at both ends!
Its a funny thing to drive cause it handles badly, but grips well, which doesnt make sense to most people who cant differentiate the two terms (ie handling and grip), the almost 50/50 weight distribution gives it great grip levels, but the geometry makes it twitch.
Complicated business suspension and not really something i know a massive amount about, i'll stick to engines i think and just come to someone like yourself for beams etc, lol!
So i basically end up with bump steer at both ends!
Its a funny thing to drive cause it handles badly, but grips well, which doesnt make sense to most people who cant differentiate the two terms (ie handling and grip), the almost 50/50 weight distribution gives it great grip levels, but the geometry makes it twitch.
Complicated business suspension and not really something i know a massive amount about, i'll stick to engines i think and just come to someone like yourself for beams etc, lol!
27-04-2005, 02:21 PM
#90
i cud do or thow some ideas at a rear set up that would work
when modding escorts novas pugs or what eva u wana put cozzy runing gear into
its far easyer to go rear link bar set up that actully making a chassie set up for a beam
all ya need is a craddle and a turret for coil ova
one off hubs or use of somthing else
by moveing inner pick up oints you can make the car toe in or out as much as you want or run zero toe in
when modding escorts novas pugs or what eva u wana put cozzy runing gear into
its far easyer to go rear link bar set up that actully making a chassie set up for a beam
all ya need is a craddle and a turret for coil ova
one off hubs or use of somthing else
by moveing inner pick up oints you can make the car toe in or out as much as you want or run zero toe in
27-04-2005, 02:22 PM
#91
Testing the future
semi-trailing arm set up. 
that´'s the problem. the std beam is a cheap way of using just 2 pivot points to control both camber and toe, but is very poor at both. best to replace it with an unequal length double wishbone arrangement like i have on my mk1 escort.
pmsl at putting the shims on a beam axle
that´'s the problem. the std beam is a cheap way of using just 2 pivot points to control both camber and toe, but is very poor at both. best to replace it with an unequal length double wishbone arrangement like i have on my mk1 escort.pmsl at putting the shims on a beam axle
27-04-2005, 02:26 PM
#92
Originally Posted by BROM@ZOO
i cud do or thow some ideas at a rear set up that would work
when modding escorts novas pugs or what eva u wana put cozzy runing gear into
its far easyer to go rear link bar set up that actully making a chassie set up for a beam
all ya need is a craddle and a turret for coil ova
one off hubs or use of somthing else
by moveing inner pick up oints you can make the car toe in or out as much as you want or run zero toe in
when modding escorts novas pugs or what eva u wana put cozzy runing gear into
its far easyer to go rear link bar set up that actully making a chassie set up for a beam
all ya need is a craddle and a turret for coil ova
one off hubs or use of somthing else
by moveing inner pick up oints you can make the car toe in or out as much as you want or run zero toe in
Im not bothered about it for now, but i might come to you at a later date if it ever becomes an issue, its only a toy really though, not worried about it handling perfectly anyway.
27-04-2005, 02:36 PM
#94
yes i know that i dint mean yours an just saying in genral all these conversoins use a cozzy beam set up which is the wrong way of doing it
am sure u wud be able to knock up some for of suframe to make correct pick up points to use with your set up
am sure u wud be able to knock up some for of suframe to make correct pick up points to use with your set up
27-04-2005, 02:44 PM
#95
Problem with changing mine around is the struts are cast, and they arent going to be very easy to convert into a trailing arm set.
What i probably need to do is change the pivot point for the track control arm so that it moves in the correct arc with the bottom arm, so that the steering remains straight, ive got adjustable camber on it anyway.
For now it seems quite happy just having the rear shocks adjusted hard though it means less movement so the effects are minimalised.
As you say though, it isnt rocket science and im sure it can be fixed if it becomes an issue.
What i probably need to do is change the pivot point for the track control arm so that it moves in the correct arc with the bottom arm, so that the steering remains straight, ive got adjustable camber on it anyway.
For now it seems quite happy just having the rear shocks adjusted hard though
it means less movement so the effects are minimalised.As you say though, it isnt rocket science and im sure it can be fixed if it becomes an issue.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
155lee
Ford RS Cosworth Parts for Sale
0
14-08-2015 11:21 AM
track.focus'd
Restorations, Rebuilds & Projects.
26
12-08-2015 05:53 PM
