FAO Mike R........re engine dyno's V rolling roads..........
15-04-2005, 01:03 PM
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FAO Mike R........re engine dyno's V rolling roads..........
Mike,
Can you translate for me please.......my head hurts
The MLR had a rolling road day at a new facility and the findings regarding BHP/torque were intresting.......
Anyway, Dave Gammon (EVO400) is saying (I think it's what he is saying) that an engine dyno cannot show how well a turbo spools up
Then he's going on about WRC restricted engines being the ultimate for 1/4 mile runs NOT big power cars...........
Breif summery would be nice pleeeeease (if/when you have time)
http://www.lancerregister.com/showth...threadid=74470
Can you translate for me please.......my head hurts
The MLR had a rolling road day at a new facility and the findings regarding BHP/torque were intresting.......
Anyway, Dave Gammon (EVO400) is saying (I think it's what he is saying) that an engine dyno cannot show how well a turbo spools up
Then he's going on about WRC restricted engines being the ultimate for 1/4 mile runs NOT big power cars...........
Breif summery would be nice pleeeeease (if/when you have time)
http://www.lancerregister.com/showth...threadid=74470
15-04-2005, 01:14 PM
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Originally Posted by dingy
Right LOL 
Thats all I know about it Dingy.........also all the cars at the shootout seemed to have made the same 260 - 262 ATW power http://www.lancerregister.com/showth...threadid=74470
15-04-2005, 01:15 PM
#6
An engine Dyno CAN show how well a turbo spools up.
You should see the one that the toyota F1 team have, I was gobsmacked, its awesome, simulates exactly the entire race, varies the trottle position just like the driver would do and everything, full on simulator.
It also exactly maintains the temperatures of ambient and water and oil etc, and for a turbo engine they would then also simulate exactly the correct amount of intercooling based on the speed of the vehicle etc.
Depends if its a proper dyno like that, or just some poxy mickey mouse cheapo thing.
Either way neither a rolling road OR a dyno that people on forums are likely to be using properly simulates real world driving so both are just educated guesses as to what power the car would make.
Ever noticed the size of charge cooler on the photos of those norwegian engines on the dyno? you'd never manage fit one of those puppies under your bonnet.
As for 1/4 mile, well thats just bollocks mate, BHP is ultimately where its at for 1/4 mile engines.
My mate Johnny runs 6.5 seconds all day long in a road legal quarter mile car, and thats not got any restrictors in it!!!!
You should see the one that the toyota F1 team have, I was gobsmacked, its awesome, simulates exactly the entire race, varies the trottle position just like the driver would do and everything, full on simulator.
It also exactly maintains the temperatures of ambient and water and oil etc, and for a turbo engine they would then also simulate exactly the correct amount of intercooling based on the speed of the vehicle etc.
Depends if its a proper dyno like that, or just some poxy mickey mouse cheapo thing.
Either way neither a rolling road OR a dyno that people on forums are likely to be using properly simulates real world driving so both are just educated guesses as to what power the car would make.
Ever noticed the size of charge cooler on the photos of those norwegian engines on the dyno? you'd never manage fit one of those puppies under your bonnet.
As for 1/4 mile, well thats just bollocks mate, BHP is ultimately where its at for 1/4 mile engines.
My mate Johnny runs 6.5 seconds all day long in a road legal quarter mile car, and thats not got any restrictors in it!!!!
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15-04-2005, 03:16 PM
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fpmsl @ Mike and his trademark patronising capital letter usage
also pmsl @ that dude quoting figures from www.letstorquebhp.com Im going to tell them all my car will run very low 11's as thats what that site calculates
also pmsl @ that dude quoting figures from www.letstorquebhp.com Im going to tell them all my car will run very low 11's as thats what that site calculates
15-04-2005, 03:24 PM
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Dave Gammon (EVO400) is saying:
Looking @ a WRC engine dyno plot you would asume that they were super responsive !!!! quite the opposite in real terms as the restrictors make the engine gasp for every breath of air and as such takes time to boost therefore allowing turbo boost to build slowly and develop big torque! little like the solid state plot . only when the said engine is put into the the WRC `car along with sophistcated software and gearbox's does the package come alive . a WRC car only makes boost once on a stage run ! but once this is attained it never loses its boost and response due to the advanced ecu antilag /turbo assist systems .
dave
And MikeR is saying:
I'm with Simon Norris on this, the simple facts are that a rolling road (especially in shoot-out mode) does not provide the same loading that you would see on the road, let alone in comparison to an engine dyno. This is why there is such a big disparity in the figures that you see, compared to what you would expect to see.
The only way to make a DIRECT comparison is to compare the boost curve produced by the dyno compared to the rolling road. If these were identical (as in the rollers could provide the same load to achieve the same boost at the same revs as the engine dyno) THEN you could make a DIRECT comparison to the flywheel figures compared to the ATW figures and be pretty sure you were seeing a reasonably accurate difference that you could quote as the transmission loss. If not, then forget it, as you're trying to compare apples with oranges .
Incidentally, I've only been on one rolling road where the boost curve was similar to what you would see on the road, and that was AVAs in Glasgow. The G Force one certainly did not (well not in shoot-out mode), where it lost 0.5 bar compared to on the road .
As to a WRC car doing a 10s quarter , I've seen Steve Scott's WRC Escort do high 12s / low 13s at Santa Pod (320bhp / 500lb ft), okay not one of the latest state of the art cars, but still to knock a good 2s off with similar power / torque to weight - I'd like to see it .
Mike R
Looking @ a WRC engine dyno plot you would asume that they were super responsive !!!! quite the opposite in real terms as the restrictors make the engine gasp for every breath of air and as such takes time to boost therefore allowing turbo boost to build slowly and develop big torque! little like the solid state plot . only when the said engine is put into the the WRC `car along with sophistcated software and gearbox's does the package come alive . a WRC car only makes boost once on a stage run ! but once this is attained it never loses its boost and response due to the advanced ecu antilag /turbo assist systems .
dave
And MikeR is saying:
I'm with Simon Norris on this, the simple facts are that a rolling road (especially in shoot-out mode) does not provide the same loading that you would see on the road, let alone in comparison to an engine dyno. This is why there is such a big disparity in the figures that you see, compared to what you would expect to see.
The only way to make a DIRECT comparison is to compare the boost curve produced by the dyno compared to the rolling road. If these were identical (as in the rollers could provide the same load to achieve the same boost at the same revs as the engine dyno) THEN you could make a DIRECT comparison to the flywheel figures compared to the ATW figures and be pretty sure you were seeing a reasonably accurate difference that you could quote as the transmission loss. If not, then forget it, as you're trying to compare apples with oranges .
Incidentally, I've only been on one rolling road where the boost curve was similar to what you would see on the road, and that was AVAs in Glasgow. The G Force one certainly did not (well not in shoot-out mode), where it lost 0.5 bar compared to on the road .
As to a WRC car doing a 10s quarter , I've seen Steve Scott's WRC Escort do high 12s / low 13s at Santa Pod (320bhp / 500lb ft), okay not one of the latest state of the art cars, but still to knock a good 2s off with similar power / torque to weight - I'd like to see it .
Mike R
15-04-2005, 03:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Mike Rainbird
Chip,
The massive charge-cooler is used because the water flow can be regulated to achieve an EXACT and repeatable ACT temp (normally 40°C - well on Harvey's set up it is).
The massive charge-cooler is used because the water flow can be regulated to achieve an EXACT and repeatable ACT temp (normally 40°C - well on Harvey's set up it is).
I havent seen the MLR thread yet, but if Mike has answered it now ill leave it alone as im not going to be online much for the next few days, if you want any more input though doug just ring me mate.
15-04-2005, 03:47 PM
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Originally Posted by chip-3door
I havent seen the MLR thread yet, but if Mike has answered it now ill leave it alone as im not going to be online much for the next few days, if you want any more input though doug just ring me mate.
15-04-2005, 03:53 PM
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Dave (EVO400):
"Mike the latest WRC cars make around 370 hp now on a 34mm restrictor . i have seen both graphs for the latest spec cars and the best escort WRC cars . they do not compare . have you used the latest motec datalogging mike or even the gems ????"
MikeR:
"Dave, In your dreams , with Ł12 a gallon fuel they make 320bhp and with Ł22 a gallon fuel they make 328bhp.
There are plenty of "claimed" figures being bandied about, and I would certainly believe just over 330bhp, but 370bhp with a 34mm restrictor would be physically impossible, unless someone has built an engine capable of defying the laws of physics OR someone has an EXTREMELY over optimistic dyno .
And don't swear at me, I use Pectel datalogging "
"Mike the latest WRC cars make around 370 hp now on a 34mm restrictor . i have seen both graphs for the latest spec cars and the best escort WRC cars . they do not compare . have you used the latest motec datalogging mike or even the gems ????"
MikeR:
"Dave, In your dreams , with Ł12 a gallon fuel they make 320bhp and with Ł22 a gallon fuel they make 328bhp.
There are plenty of "claimed" figures being bandied about, and I would certainly believe just over 330bhp, but 370bhp with a 34mm restrictor would be physically impossible, unless someone has built an engine capable of defying the laws of physics OR someone has an EXTREMELY over optimistic dyno .
And don't swear at me, I use Pectel datalogging "
15-04-2005, 04:20 PM
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............
Re: FAO Mike R........re engine dyno's V rolling roads......
Originally Posted by Andreas
What about the assdyno?
APMSL
15-04-2005, 04:33 PM
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That's plain rude, or arrogance at the very least. My question still stands, as in your statement you didn't mention that you WERE taking oxygen content into account for your calcs!
I hope that you're basing it on calcs, and not one person's mapping experience!!
I hope that you're basing it on calcs, and not one person's mapping experience!!
OH DEAR!
15-04-2005, 04:45 PM
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Classic MikeR reply...........including the killer "CAPS"............And wad-do-you-know, a graph showing 370 BHP cant be posted when requested
MikeR:
"I take it you CAN read, as my posts mention the different fuels . The most expensive I quoted is the Elf FIA sanctioned Turbo fuel...........Dave, Feel free to post that graph up....
The regulation 34mm restrictor only permits 353 cubic feet of air per minute - 10 cubic meters - you do the math ."
15-04-2005, 05:48 PM
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15-04-2005, 05:49 PM
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15-04-2005, 05:51 PM
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15-04-2005, 06:17 PM
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Mike, where did you get the 353 CFM figure from ??
My previous calculated estimate is in that area, but a bit off. I'm just curious where you got your numbers from.
Maybe I need to update my spreadsheet....
My previous calculated estimate is in that area, but a bit off. I'm just curious where you got your numbers from.
Maybe I need to update my spreadsheet....
15-04-2005, 06:18 PM
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Having used both to tune engines, IMO the Engine Dyno wins !!!
So flexible,repeatable not to mention accurate !!!
You can do proper simulated power runs and reverse power runs.
All under closely controlled conditions.
So flexible,repeatable not to mention accurate !!!
You can do proper simulated power runs and reverse power runs.
All under closely controlled conditions.
16-04-2005, 08:48 AM
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thought 300hp was the permitted power limit in wrc? or is it just "you will fit a 34mm restrictor and make what you can"?
only mike answer please as he clearly is god
only mike answer please as he clearly is god
16-04-2005, 09:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Matt
thought 300hp was the permitted power limit in wrc? or is it just "you will fit a 34mm restrictor and make what you can"?
only mike answer please as he clearly is god
only mike answer please as he clearly is god
Also, the restrictor is an easy item to "police"..........It can be sealed (with a crimped tag) and ultimately is easier to check/verify in scrutineering before/during and after the rally.
The original WRC restrictor engines just about made the 300 BHP that the governing body was imposing, so everybody was happy with that.
