fuzzy

ive no idea what this kit is but is it something that could be knackered by wrong fitting or getting wires mixed up?

Fezzrs

Wrap wNt hours trying to find tge problem

Fezzrs

I'm just saying various problems with this kit and i recon theres a slight chance it damaged my chip

Easy for u kit to say this tgat tge other but u aibt had to go to tge exodus se keep posting ecus back and court and get charged for fiting this kit which came to 65 quid so thats what 220 for the kit a loom thats wired wrong a wasted spark tgats wasted it spark in the wrong order so im 300 quid down hope u lot dobt have any problens lije ive had i recon this wasted spark fried my chip cus the car ran fine before until we fitted this And the car ran fine with my ecu and dissy until warm wud cut out prob mapping but this wasted spark caused my car to pop and bang and was firing all over tge shop so if it was not the wasted spark it would not caused a pop and band which just proves the ecu was not tge cause of tge pop and banging wen on distributors

Fezzrs

We had this problem the plugs would not fire in sequence it was firing all over the ship

James @ M Developments.

iTrader: (2)

So why did you buy it? If you had concerns about the kit?

Look at it this way, if you popped into Tesco and bought a tin of beans, took them home and ate them,
Then popped back a few weeks later asking for a refund, Tesco would want to know what was wrong with them and why you want a refund, as you ate them.
if your answer was "nothing was wrong with them" I don't think they would refund you?
Even if you said " the tin was open" they would ask why did you eat them? And not bring them back so we could see the evidence.?

It's the same for us, you purchased some wasted spark parts, they have been used, and are not faulty. We have found your problem for you and it's not related to the wasted spark driver at all.

If the loom is faulty, send it in to me and I will deal with it, no problem.
If we find it is faulty I would even offer a refund on the loom, no problem.

But I cannot refund you as far as I can see for the driver that has been fitted, now cut out, and there is nothing wrong with it.
That is not our fault and it is not really our fault that you have changed your mind about fitting wasted spark after it has been fitted.

James @ M Developments.

iTrader: (2)

I don't think the eprom is damaged in the terms you think.
it initialises the ecu, all appears well in the actual firmware on the EPROM, but I don't think it is suitable for the car spec you have.
If the eprom was dead it would not initialise the ecu correctly.
But I didn't really look into it any further than knowing it runs on my eprom and map, but not on yours.

Running fine untill it warmed up, can hardly be classed as running fine can it?

I seem to remember firstly you thought it was one of our chips fitted, then said it had been live mapped by someone else,
So if it was live mapped by someone,why wouldn't it run when warmed up?
It sounds like you had problems before you even started to me.

Ultimately, you want your car to run and to be able to use it, I fully understand your frustration, and ultimately I want every customer to be happy with the products we supply. But you have to be realistic about what you are asking us to do here.
As I said to you Via pm earlier, I cannot deal with the refund as it is not up to me, I will drop an email to the sales team in the morning and give them a link to this thread so they can decide how to proceed and try to resolve the issue for you.

But I think if its our help you are after, starting various threads on Internet forums in an argumentative manner to get a reaction from people is the wrong way to go about it really. But that is only my personal opinion.

GVK.

This!!

I can't see how James @ MSD can be anymore helpful in resolving this issue, than he appears to be on this thread.

rog

iTrader: (2)

I suppose it's no ones business really, but since it's now posted on a public forum I'll put in my bit too

Call or visit MSD and sort it out, bitching about it on here won't do you any good, I'm not being harsh, I just think it's a waste of both parties time. But from what I have seen so far from both sides I think you could've dealt with this a lot better, which I hope you can admit? If there was any doubt in the wiring you should've clarified tht first and not gone and cut bits up and then expected a refund, it's like buying a poorly fitted suit and trying to mend it, then expecting a refund... The suit might be ok, but if youre a fat bastard, it's not the clothes that are wrong lol

dojj

iTrader: (3)

you can't have a personal onion mate, the customer is always right and because he said something on the internet you now have to bend over backwards to help him out

but hang on a minute, it looks like you HAVE, so you are both winners, aren't you

and someone has "tidied" up this thread from last night so i'm not sure if i'm now not making sense but the bottom line seems to be this:

he bought something
it didn't work
he tried to make it work
it didn't work
he sent it back
it works
he wants his money back

i think that you have done the best you can in finding a solution but if this whole saga has highlighted an error in one of your suppliers products then a refund of Ł83 might not be as huge a deal as it first was (i thought he'd spent millions with you from the way he was posting) and you may need to put some sort of clause in the paperwork saying that electrical items can't be refunded

fuzzy

If the items not broken and returned in original condition and packaging and fit for resale then a refund would be possible. If its not then i wouldn't entertain it.

James @ M Developments.

iTrader: (2)

That isn't quite accurate, try


he bought something
it didn't work on his car but did on mine.
he tried to make it work
it didn't work on his car
he sent it back
it still doesn't work on his car and I found the issue was nothing at all to do with the kit he bought from us.
he wants his money back

I can't comment on anything to do with a faulty loom, as nobody ever told me about one untill now and I have not seen it.
But the car has the same running issue that we were being told about without the loom fitted it appears, so I can't see how the loom can be the cause of the fault, when I fixed it by changing the eprom.

R5FORD

iTrader: (1)

So in other words his chip is fried and trying to get msd to give him some money

Bomber

There are a lot of things that can trip you up on a Weber install on a CVH.

I know the horse has bolted here, but it might be worth at least double checking the following:

1. The TPS - PF01 and 09 need different feeds on the pins, so check your loom.

2. The Phase Sensor - if you are using a Ford (Zetec) sensor on a Cam/Phase disc you will need to swap the pins around.

3. Phase Sensor Pickup - you'll need to correctly emulate the Cosworth distributor on a disc, this means that the pips on the disc will need to be read at the right time (you'll need to ask about this as I cannot remember where the pips sit in relation to TDC on Piston 1). 0.2mm Gap.

4. Crank sensor - you will either have 4 pips welded to your CVH Crank pulley or you will have a 1.8CVH Sierra pullet and mount. The gap here is absolutely 100% important - 0.6mm.

5. Base Map. You'll need at the very least a base map for a CVH running this management, a Cosworth one will not work correctly. You'll need to spec injectors, cam, cc and turbo - this will get you at least running in a limited capacity, enough to drive it onto a Loader for it to be sent off for a bespoke live map. Originally I had a 'base map' from Jano and it was utter garbage and gave me the symptoms you describe. I had a full live map from a reputable builder and it has been spot on ever since.

6. Fuel. Drain any old fuel and puts some fresh v-Power or Optimax in.

7. Plugs/leads. Check they are on the coilpack/dizzy in the right order and that the plugs are gapped correctly.

8. Sensors. Don't use 2nd hand ones, use new ones.

I know some of this is sucking eggs, but at least check these things first and if it were me, i'd remove the loom and ecu in one piece and send it off to MSD to check over. At least you'll know what the issue was then.

Good luck.

Psycho Warren

iTrader: (5)

Am i the only one who thinks the OP has made himself look a bit stupid by trying to be clever with this thread??

James @ M Developments.

iTrader: (2)

its not fried as in damaged, but the data on the chip isnt suitable for the engine in question i think, The ECU runs perfectly with our chip in it.

fuzzy

not at all.the o/p should have made phone calls the first option rather than some of the barely legible posts on here.

James @ M Developments.

iTrader: (2)

I think at the end of the day he just wants his car to work and has ended up frustrated, i can sympathise with that as i have been there myself many many times

cossie891

iTrader: (1)

James you have too much patience with people I would of told him to jog the fuck on by now

Carlos-Titx

A simple "my cars running like shut and need it sorting first. Can I get a refund on the item *that I have not cut the wires on* please?" Would probably of done

natehall

iTrader: (2)

To take this back to topic..

Theres one of two ways you could go about get a refund.

1. Compromise - Speak to MSD direct, perhaps come to a compromise considering it is clear that the driver is not in good condition due to your negligence removing it, perhaps getting the software calibration issue (chip) issue resolved by them as well, meaning you get your car working and dont end up on a he-said she-said man in the middle situation between whoever fitted your kit to your car, and MSD. Which from experience of BT and Tiscali Internet never gets won (hence I now pay BT only for line and internet - one company, its there problem to solve if something goes wrong!)

2. Brute Force - You could go on the biggest ford forum, slag off a company with a reputation of doing everything by the book customer service wise, trying to push them into a corner in the hope they relent and give you your money back, there other option is to defend what you have said with facts making you look like a dumbwit and stick there heels in based upon there well publicised return policy, that the goods must be in resellable condition or faulty..

Compromise or brute force.. I know which way has the higher chance of success, and on a forum where 100's of customers without a complaint reside, (your the first complaint I have seen in 8+ years of being on here) you stand no chance of brute force winning

boost mad

iTrader: (8)

Isaac.Hunt

Just to throw the cat in amongst the pigeons:

Making the assumption that the OP bought the wasted spark kit by mail order and that MSD didn't inform the buyer of his cancellation rights (I make this assumption on the basis of MSD's return policy on eBay which is in contrary to current legislation, and also I know when I have previously bought from MSD I was not informed of my cancellation rights) then the buyer is totally well within his rights to not only request but also to receive a refund from MSD - They are legally bound to do so.

On the flip side, the buyer does have a duty to take "reasonable care" of the item(s) bought, what the definition of "reasonable" is fairly subjective and MSD will have some recourse against the buyer should a court deem that reasonable care has not been afforded by the buyer.

On a secondary point, if the item(s) sold were not as described / fit for purpose (i.e the loom) then the buyer also has a right to recourse, albeit it one more involved then just invoking their rights under the Distance Selling Regulations.

So the pertinent questions are: 1) When did the buyer purchase the wasted spark kit and 2) were they informed of their cancellation rights and if so, was this done in the correct manner?

natehall

iTrader: (2)

Now I have done my objective reply, heres what I think should happen.

Clutching at straws mate - there was obviously a problem with it before if it would not run upto temp and so you decided to fit a MSD kit to resolve that issue, without working out what the core issue was

If MSD do decide it is time for you to get a refund at there descretion, they should send it to you as a voucher for english lessons and a new keyboard, that is not autocorrect issues, just really difficult to read and understand. Your clearly not a stupid bloke, very frustrated that your car is not working and looking for someone to blame, however based upon my knowledge of electronic theory, the wasted spark kit has not fried your chip, when a chip gets fried, it will not power on at all.

My english is shit, and I make a lot of typos but that was something else

natehall

iTrader: (2)

I would have said this in my post above, however it would be very easy to argue that reasonable care is not taking a pair of scissors to it.

As a modification, it is also in a bit of a grey area on the DSR, it is a modification which is put together for the customer (in this case it is a item fitted to a ECU), so whilst he may have right to return the loom under the DSR, the modified driver is something for legal eagles to argue over which will quickly go beyond the simple costs of the driver.

Isaac.Hunt

You misunderstand the Distance Selling Regulations - this is NOT a grey area in the slightest, of that I can guarantee! In the section of DSR that you cite, DSR is making reference to custom made items for example, items made to a custom specification - i.e a sign with someone's name on it, a glass engraved with a personalised message, a t-shirt with a custom slogan / logo, etc. etc. This is to stop business' getting lumbered with goods that cannot be resold. The wasted spark kits are sold "off the shelf", are they not?

Regardless of reasonable care being taken or not, the buyer is still due a refund, those are his rights under distance selling. It doesn't matter if he has jumped up and down on it and set it on fire - he is still due a refund including the cost of postage to him and if MSD haven't stated to the contrary when he bought, MSD are also responsible for the return cost to them .

As I say, it doens't mean MSD can't make a counter claim against the buyer for not exercising "reasonable care" but that is not what is being contested.

It also does not mean I agree with Distance Selling Regulations - they allow consumers to get away with murder but again, it doesn't mean the buyer is not due a refund.

Fezzrs

I aibt ruining no ones reputation insure there will be more wasted spark horrors in tge future

natehall

iTrader: (2)

What information do you have to confirm/deny that? I would love to read it as we are going through our T's & C's right now... (well when im not on here)

The document referenced from the Oft in my last post, above the paragraph I copied and pasted clearly states:

natehall

iTrader: (2)

Can we have this in proof read english please?

natehall

iTrader: (2)

in this case, it is not an off the shelf item, hence the grey area - MSD fitted the goods as a modification to the buyers ECU if I read correctly, therefore it would not be simply off the shelf - if it was sold as a kit I would say yes - its off the shelf and as such is covered.

I do love a good debate, especially if I can learn something.

Please note: I am not affiliated in any way with either party on here.

CossieRich

iTrader: (1)

Is it possible for you to type correctly please? Most of us are used to text speak, chav speak but you are on another level of illegibility.

Fezzrs

I bought this ecu and cossie loom for my car off a friend it was running perfect i fitted the wasted spark and the car wud not fire it was fitted by James at msd we paid for the fitting he done a brilliant job at fitting im not here to cause an argument i shoukd of dobe it more discreet but this is how pissed of i am cus ive had to fork out for anotger chip to be mapped an d then it might have to be live mapped

Psycho Warren

iTrader: (5)

This is getting better by the minute I can't wait for the proper anal grammer nazi's to strike

rog

iTrader: (2)

I think Lambchop is at home justnow, don't think he comes on here much outside of his work schedule

ronf42

iTrader: (2)

my 2p worth, a quick look on MSD webshop shows the returns policy, so it is not hard to locate the terms and conditions.

Returns Policy


(1) Introduction
We understand that from time to time you may wish to return a product to us.
We have created this 30 day returns policy to enable you to return products to us in appropriate circumstances.
This returns policy applies to customers in England and Wales.
This policy does not affect any statutory rights you may have (such as consumer rights under the Consumer Protection (Distance Selling) Regulations 2000).


(2) Returns
Where you have no other legal right to return a product and receive a refund or exchange, then you will nonetheless be entitled to return a product to us where:

(a) We receive the returned product within [30] days following the date of purchase of the product;

(b) the returned product is unused, in its original [unopened] packaging (with any seal or shrink-wrap intact), with any labels still attached, and otherwise in a condition enabling us to sell the product as new;

(c) you comply with the returns procedure set out below; and

(d) none of the exclusions set out below apply.


(3) Returns procedure
In order to take advantage of your rights under this returns policy, you must:
Ensure that products are sent, via a recorded delivery service, to:

Motorsport Developments Blackpool Ltd
Unit 3F, Moorfields
Kincraig Road
Bispham
Blackpool
Lancashire
FY2 0JY

You will be responsible for paying postage costs associated with returns under this policy.


(4) Exclusions
The following kinds of products may not be returned under this policy:

[(a) food, drink and any other products liable to deteriorate within the period set out in Section 1 and 2 above;

(b) DVDs, CDs and other audio or video or audio-visual recordings;

(c) computer or ECU software (whether delivered on EPROM, Module, CD-ROM, DVD-ROM or otherwise);

(d) newspapers, periodicals, magazines or similar products;

(e) toiletries and cosmetics;

(f) any product made to your specification;

(g) any product made to order;

(h) gift vouchers.


(5) Refunds
We will send you a refund for the full price of any product properly returned by you in accordance with the terms of this returns policy (excluding the original delivery charges and excluding the costs of returning the product to us).

We will usually refund any money received from you using the same method originally used by you to pay for your purchase.

We will process the refund due to you as soon as possible and, in any event, within 30 days of the day we received your returned product.


(6) Improper returns
Where you return a product in contravention of this policy (and where you do not have any other legal right to return the product):

(a) we will not refund or exchange the product;

(b) we may retain the returned product until you pay to us such additional amount as we may charge for re-delivery of the returned product; and

(c) if we do not receive payment of such additional amount within 14 days of issuing a request for payment, we may destroy or otherwise dispose of the returned product in our sole discretion without any liability to you.


(7) About us
Our full name is Motorsport Developments Blackpool Ltd

Our registered office and our principal trading address is:
Unit 3F, Moorfields
Kincraig Road
Bispham
Blackpool
Lancashire
FY2 0JY

Our company registration number is 7258521

Our email address is sales@motorsport-developments.co.uk

Our VAT number is 775173801


It does mention distance selling, but I have not looked at that, BUT, it does however state that in Section 2 A) & B) with regards to length of time after purchase being 30 days, and it is unopened and re-sellable which due to cut wires is not in an "as new" condition. Perhaps people ordering goods online may want to check the returns policy before purchase in future.
And I have never had to order anything from MSD before either.

Isaac.Hunt

Clearly states what? Your quote hasn't been pasted correctly?


The legislation is clear and publicly available, search OPSI for the relevant statutory instrument.

As I say, I don't specifically agree with DSR, it allows consumers to well and truly take the piss if they want but that aside, that is current legislation and what the consumer has a statutory right to.


As a side note for MSD, I'd consider investing in some legal advice regarding your return policies on eBay as well as some of your representations on not only eBay but also your website, at a very quick and cursory browse they fail to meet the minimum required legal standards.

Isaac.Hunt

I beg to differ, it is an off the shelf item - I can call MSD right not and order the exact item or go on ebay and buy it from them. It is not personalised or custom built in anyway, it's application is not specific to my specifications.

It doesn't matter if it modifies someone's car in some way. That argument could be applied to virtually anything including tyres or alloy wheels.





It doesn't matter what terms MSD attempt to impose, they are unenforceable if they infringe on someone's statutory rights.

Gary F

iTrader: (1)

MSD with their amazing customer service... Well until something goes wrong.

I love how everyone defends MSD, if this was a different tuner like Enhanced Performances problem everyone would be slagging them off.

Give the lad his refund!

natehall

iTrader: (2)

I am not sure what your profession is, mine is in software engineering and two people can order a website off me, looking identical and I can delivery that. However what you would not see is the fact that one person already has an order management backend using product X, one person has an order management backend product Y, I have to spend hours tailoring to each product, and therefore despite the two websites looking identical, they are in fact very different beasts.

It is the same with the hardware in an ECU, finding a standard ECU which has not had modifications done and need considering, means that whilst the kit is an off the shelf item, the conversion is not.

The fitting to the customers ECU is in fact custom work, yes there will be an amount of solder wire A to Pin 1, Wire B to Pin 2 etc, all standard work but there is a chance the ECU has had new boards added etc, replaced and the work may need to be tailored to the specifics of the installation.

I am all for DSR, yes it costs me money in paying for goods to be returned to me, is completely in the buyers favour, but every business I know adds the average costs of returned items correctly supplied into the cost of the products - meaning on average the business is up. It is unfortunately that in a commercial world, common sense can never truly prevail and that such legislation designed to protect the consumer, ends up costing the consumer more for a product, as the business needs to cover its costs

James @ M Developments.

iTrader: (2)

Thanks for your input Gary,

I pride myself on my Customer service and will do all i can to try to help the guy out, and infact i already have done so.

Psycho Warren

iTrader: (5)

Why?

There appears to be nothing wrong with the product supplied.