Improving throttle response and 'revvyness' on a YB engine- Ideas please
20-08-2013, 01:01 PM
#41
For low end response the YB is a poor engine both geometrically (bore and stroke) and mechanically (Inertia of components) I'm afraid.
The huge and heavy flywheel doesn't help, nor does the very heavy bottom end.
The thing is just hugely over engineered for low states of tune and will never feel like a modern lightweight 4 pot that falls to pieces at 350ftlb of torque.
Advancing the cams to shift the engines efficiency lower can help significantly if your willing to run more boost up the top to overcome the VE drop or indeed don't care about BHP figures but ultimately, a responsive revy little engine she isn't.
That said, without driving your car I couldn't comment on how yours actually performs, and the usual responsiveness problem is normally exasperated significantly by bad states of tune, specifically very rich mixtures, poor cam timing and spark timing issues. Not a lot else I can add without access to the car itself.
The huge and heavy flywheel doesn't help, nor does the very heavy bottom end.
The thing is just hugely over engineered for low states of tune and will never feel like a modern lightweight 4 pot that falls to pieces at 350ftlb of torque.
Advancing the cams to shift the engines efficiency lower can help significantly if your willing to run more boost up the top to overcome the VE drop or indeed don't care about BHP figures but ultimately, a responsive revy little engine she isn't.
That said, without driving your car I couldn't comment on how yours actually performs, and the usual responsiveness problem is normally exasperated significantly by bad states of tune, specifically very rich mixtures, poor cam timing and spark timing issues. Not a lot else I can add without access to the car itself.
. Mine revs so quick that you have to be ready to pull the next gear (or hit the limiter if your reactions aren't quick enough), but to do respond like this, it has over 500bhp and over 500lb ft
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20-08-2013, 01:30 PM
#42
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Indeed mike, hence why I said revvyness was less of a factor, but ideas of anything to help beyond the obvious of more power (IE the flywheel) will be appreciated.
The main factor is the numb feelling throttle response, which is something else entirely, and tbh I think the most likely culprit (beyond the flywheel) is the current map.
The main factor is the numb feelling throttle response, which is something else entirely, and tbh I think the most likely culprit (beyond the flywheel) is the current map.
20-08-2013, 06:50 PM
#44
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Well here's one, if anyone cares much- A turbine blanket. I had one lying around off another car, and it was big enough to cover the whole hot side inc most the 4x4 manifold. While it doesn't have a night and day difference of course, it has helped make the response a little more instant.
TBH what I'm after 99% of people won't care about, maybe just the rally/sprint/hillclimb people. But I'm not in the market (well, my wallet isn't) for a high-comp rally engine, I'm just trying to make the most of what I got.
On the weekend running a hillclimb course the car annoyed me with a lack of instant response- On the road or most tracks and extra 5ft or faction of a second until the car responds isn't noticeable, but it is with what I do with the car.
20-08-2013, 08:14 PM
#45
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We haven't got to the end of anything, just nobody has any other ideas it seems so the thread died.
Well here's one, if anyone cares much- A turbine blanket. I had one lying around off another car, and it was big enough to cover the whole hot side inc most the 4x4 manifold. While it doesn't have a night and day difference of course, it has helped make the response a little more instant.
TBH what I'm after 99% of people won't care about, maybe just the rally/sprint/hillclimb people. But I'm not in the market (well, my wallet isn't) for a high-comp rally engine, I'm just trying to make the most of what I got.
On the weekend running a hillclimb course the car annoyed me with a lack of instant response- On the road or most tracks and extra 5ft or faction of a second until the car responds isn't noticeable, but it is with what I do with the car.
Well here's one, if anyone cares much- A turbine blanket. I had one lying around off another car, and it was big enough to cover the whole hot side inc most the 4x4 manifold. While it doesn't have a night and day difference of course, it has helped make the response a little more instant.
TBH what I'm after 99% of people won't care about, maybe just the rally/sprint/hillclimb people. But I'm not in the market (well, my wallet isn't) for a high-comp rally engine, I'm just trying to make the most of what I got.
On the weekend running a hillclimb course the car annoyed me with a lack of instant response- On the road or most tracks and extra 5ft or faction of a second until the car responds isn't noticeable, but it is with what I do with the car.
I thought the problem was throttle response and not efficiency of drive of the turbo!
You could always gear it down which will give the feeling of a 'revvy' motor.
20-08-2013, 10:20 PM
#49
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a really light flywheel makes a big difference and as said about dropping a gear going up hills , as its for revs not cruising along
this is a guess but could you not go long con rods and short pistons and lightening and balancing to help it rev better?
this is a guess but could you not go long con rods and short pistons and lightening and balancing to help it rev better?
20-08-2013, 10:24 PM
#50
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are you using this car for hill climb?
and if your power level is around the 250ish bhp you might be better off going n/a as it will be better suited and probably more controllable and put out around the same bhp
and if your power level is around the 250ish bhp you might be better off going n/a as it will be better suited and probably more controllable and put out around the same bhp
20-08-2013, 11:33 PM
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Pretty much does the same on every car I've ever fitted one to.
Like I said from the start, I don't care THAT much about revvyness as I know nothing much can be done aside from what's mentioned, and like I said already in the thread, I don't want to lower the gearing any more than it already is. It's the response I was after.
May as well stop now, got all the worthwhile answers I'm going to get.
21-08-2013, 08:04 AM
#52
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Don't know why you made a thread tbh as you knew everything from the offset it seems. A good setup is MUCH more extensive than you might think from the likes of MSD as there are about 15 or 20 things that they will check and alter if necessary. It isn't just a simple fuelling and ignition check and then away you go.
I took my piddly 1.8 Zetec up there and one of the very first things I noticed about it was how different the throttle felt. Was so much more snappier it was unreal on a relatively low tune run of the mill engine.
If mechanically everything is sound then the only other worthwhile changes you can make to the way it drives is how it is mapped and setup.
I took my piddly 1.8 Zetec up there and one of the very first things I noticed about it was how different the throttle felt. Was so much more snappier it was unreal on a relatively low tune run of the mill engine.
If mechanically everything is sound then the only other worthwhile changes you can make to the way it drives is how it is mapped and setup.
21-08-2013, 09:04 AM
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I deffo didn't know everything already, lol, in fact there's been some decent advice a few times on this thread of things to check etc, not to mention the reassurance that that's just the way they are. Tbh I was just hoping somebody had some interesting little things that have been found out over the years that help a YB, but I guess there isn't anything much, as it's just the way it is.
Last edited by WTF?!; 21-08-2013 at 09:05 AM.
21-08-2013, 09:08 AM
#54
Ben
Just keep it on boost all the time 
21-08-2013, 10:13 AM
#55
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ive owned a well set up t3 car on greens and a stage 2 running iirc 22 psi tailing right off up in the revs and that was really responsive but not high revving as the turbine housing throttled it above 5500 rpm.
if it feels lethargic then maybe something isn't right, just get it to a decent tuner and get cam timing, ignition timing, fueling etc checked. any poorly set up car will be a dog.
also make sure you havnt got any boost leaks ive just done my gtr and the difference in response after sealing a leaky dump valve and remap is honestly night and day.
if it feels lethargic then maybe something isn't right, just get it to a decent tuner and get cam timing, ignition timing, fueling etc checked. any poorly set up car will be a dog.
also make sure you havnt got any boost leaks ive just done my gtr and the difference in response after sealing a leaky dump valve and remap is honestly night and day.
21-08-2013, 02:53 PM
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I was looking to see if there's anything else to improve things barring the tune being wrong or something being faulty.
These cars aren't perfect from the factory, and defo aren't super responsive for what they are either, hence asking if anyone's done any mods (barring extreme stuff like a high comp rally motor) that will improve things. Nobody really had any ideas I didn't already think of, but it was worth a try; it's what forums are for aren't they?
And most problems barring how crap the map is I wouldn't need to go pay a tuner to diagnose. People who just blindly pay people to fix issues regardless of what they are surely shouldn't be ones giving 'advice' on tuning
Last edited by WTF?!; 21-08-2013 at 02:55 PM.
21-08-2013, 07:43 PM
#58
But can you see if the TPS is set at optimum ? The fueling at low rpm as Stu has said can be a cause some of your symptoms . Getting the fuel pot set globally and calibrating the TPS can be done indoors but most people would rather the pro,s do it for them .
21-08-2013, 08:02 PM
#59
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I don't think WTF really wants the answers....just seems ANGRY
21-08-2013, 11:52 PM
#64
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My 3dr using a t3.60 (saph 4x4 t3 on 2wd manifold) was peaking 26 then levelling off as it runs out of puff top end. Never had problems with unresponsiveness, it just kicks.
22-08-2013, 07:12 AM
#65
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WTF is going on in peoples minds on this forum more like, lol. Most people replying either can't read or are just being awkward for the sake of it
I was looking to see if there's anything else to improve things barring the tune being wrong or something being faulty.
These cars aren't perfect from the factory, and defo aren't super responsive for what they are either, hence asking if anyone's done any mods (barring extreme stuff like a high comp rally motor) that will improve things. Nobody really had any ideas I didn't already think of, but it was worth a try; it's what forums are for aren't they?
And most problems barring how crap the map is I wouldn't need to go pay a tuner to diagnose. People who just blindly pay people to fix issues regardless of what they are surely shouldn't be ones giving 'advice' on tuning
I was looking to see if there's anything else to improve things barring the tune being wrong or something being faulty.
These cars aren't perfect from the factory, and defo aren't super responsive for what they are either, hence asking if anyone's done any mods (barring extreme stuff like a high comp rally motor) that will improve things. Nobody really had any ideas I didn't already think of, but it was worth a try; it's what forums are for aren't they?
And most problems barring how crap the map is I wouldn't need to go pay a tuner to diagnose. People who just blindly pay people to fix issues regardless of what they are surely shouldn't be ones giving 'advice' on tuning
Im going to reply again, I feel you are mistaken.
you say you have plenty of power but going from no boost to positive boost seems unresponsive now for this to happen there is a problem a little bit lighter flywheel isn't going to fix it.
my mate who is on here had a saph at stage 1 and that was lethargic really bad it made boost and did pull but was flat as a fart he even commented to me asking "whys it so shit compared to yours" he sold it in the end.
if anyone who owns a t3 powered car thinks its lethargic then there is something wrong with it ime.
my rb26 was doing this exact same thing and the dump valve wasn't sealing only stuck open by 2 - 3mm and it made the engine feel very lethargic. ive had a few cars over the years at varying power levels upto 800 hp and been a mechanic for 15 years and your problem sounds far more than heavy inertia engine parts to me.
first port of call I would make sure you don't have any boost circuit leaks.
Last edited by scoooby slayer; 22-08-2013 at 07:14 AM.
22-08-2013, 01:40 PM
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The first thing id do is check down the bores to see if the pistons look like std 2wd ones and that might give you an idea of cr, if its been rebuilt it may be lower cr?
Then id be thinking of getting a better of the shelf chip from stu and getting at least a l8 ecu if your on a l1(cant remember if it was l1 or l6 you said you had?)..
If the cr looks std then the chip and set up will transform the car imo..
Then id be thinking of getting a better of the shelf chip from stu and getting at least a l8 ecu if your on a l1(cant remember if it was l1 or l6 you said you had?)..
If the cr looks std then the chip and set up will transform the car imo..
23-08-2013, 12:24 PM
#67
The first thing id do is check down the bores to see if the pistons look like std 2wd ones and that might give you an idea of cr, if its been rebuilt it may be lower cr?
Then id be thinking of getting a better of the shelf chip from stu and getting at least a l8 ecu if your on a l1(cant remember if it was l1 or l6 you said you had?)..
If the cr looks std then the chip and set up will transform the car imo..
Then id be thinking of getting a better of the shelf chip from stu and getting at least a l8 ecu if your on a l1(cant remember if it was l1 or l6 you said you had?)..
If the cr looks std then the chip and set up will transform the car imo..
Martin
23-08-2013, 08:54 PM
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Im not saying the ecu will make all the difference the op is going on about im just saying after checking cr that if hes going to the trouble of getting a new chip id ditch the l1 and get a better l8 at the same time...
I was always led to believe that the l1 is very slow and even a l6 was better?
24-08-2013, 03:21 AM
#70
nms gunship mapp.........
when i spoke to the tuners about my cossies, they said when they send out a chip they turn everything down to a safe level that will work on any cossie including the ignition, and they would dial it all back in when they set it up
this could be the problem that the car had a chip like this and needs a live mapp/set up to make the most from it
could be the chip?
i though my stage 1 was boring to be honest, the difference to a live mapped nms stage3 from a plug in stage 1 was night and day
when i spoke to the tuners about my cossies, they said when they send out a chip they turn everything down to a safe level that will work on any cossie including the ignition, and they would dial it all back in when they set it up
this could be the problem that the car had a chip like this and needs a live mapp/set up to make the most from it
could be the chip?
i though my stage 1 was boring to be honest, the difference to a live mapped nms stage3 from a plug in stage 1 was night and day
24-08-2013, 10:39 AM
#71
Im not saying the ecu will make all the difference the op is going on about im just saying after checking cr that if hes going to the trouble of getting a new chip id ditch the l1 and get a better l8 at the same time...
I was always led to believe that the l1 is very slow and even a l6 was better?
I was always led to believe that the l1 is very slow and even a l6 was better?
The L8 is just an L6 with a 'baby board', which I am think I am right in saying accomodates the extra memory. Hence if you remove this board you essestially have an L6, lol!
I have heard about the 'transient fuelling' before, not sure what difference that makes though?
Martin
25-08-2013, 09:22 AM
#72
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25-08-2013, 10:04 AM
#73
I can understand your comments about just not wanting to pay money for someone to say oh its fine, but if the so called "dodgy" chip is that then it might just be the best money you have paid out and get the reason as to why it feels like it does..
no "tuner" can give you a definitive answer without actually driving the car or offer much real advice that would help. they will just "speculate" as to why you have the problem not the reasons you have the problem.
OR..
stage 3 it ... will be a totally different car ..
took my 4x4 from stage 1 to a stage 3 and was the best money I spent at the start ..
oh and having mark shead set it up with one of stu's chips..
no "tuner" can give you a definitive answer without actually driving the car or offer much real advice that would help. they will just "speculate" as to why you have the problem not the reasons you have the problem.
OR..
stage 3 it ... will be a totally different car ..
took my 4x4 from stage 1 to a stage 3 and was the best money I spent at the start ..
oh and having mark shead set it up with one of stu's chips..
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