Chip

iTrader: (3)

Yeah so long as its fast enough to handle the number of extra inputs required I dont mind how the expansion is done, just want there to be an option so if I have a requirement for 60 inputs for any reason, that I can do so.

alistairolsen

Chip: Agreed, even the original Megasquirt stuff has a useful range of extra input options, but then there's a matrix of mutually exclusive options which basically means it can't do all that i'd want!

I'd assume things like COP support for 5 cylinders will be there anyway, along with a way to monitor wheel speeds for proper traction control?

PS I'm with Warren on the display aspect, the money a stack unit costs is mental and with cheap OBD android dash software doing the rounds it can't be hard to offer a reliable integrated solution.

More costly in terms of time is error codes, I have a VW at the moment and use VCDS and it's invaluable in terms of fault finding, something few if any aftermarket jobs actually offer.

stevieturbo

All aftermarket ecus have diagnostics. It's the laptop tuning software.

Psycho Warren

iTrader: (5)

Exactly, markk was trying to big up GEMS, but what Ł2k plus for ecu and Ł2k plus for a dash that looks more modern than a 90's spec display most of these race dashes use. Even the colour ones are low resolution.

And a lot of the aftermarket systems arent all that compatable and some need custom sensors.

You want an all in hassle free package that does all the engine management and control/dash features you could need. Then in theory you just need a basic loom for lights etc in a race car.

Hell if you really wanted to do it properly you would have a second add on box that would basically be a modern version of the racelogic camera boxes. Large Solid state hard drive, its own android processor (small and cheap now) and would take a manual anaologue cable input from 4 cameras and a CANBUS feed from the ECU with select data for the overlays people want on thier track day cameras (eg gps feed linked to google maps, speed, rpm, gear etc).

Jay,

iTrader: (4)

But then thats the spin because in a serious world there is no point in fitting a aftermarket ecu or a dash to be honest unless the standard one cant be mapped or the car has out grown the oem ecu

Psycho Warren

iTrader: (5)

Which is the case in most the kit car world, a lot of the track day car/modified road/track car market and some of the road market.

But thats why offer seperate modules for certain features.

The main ecu and main software is the key bit, then an add on dash unit and add on camera/datalogger unit.

If its using databus comms then as long as the protocol is the same throughout it should be relatively easy to be able to add on units either as volume retail packages for the masses or custom developed unique add ons for awkward idiots like me!!

I imagine the track kit car scene would lap it up. A complete compatable and advanced ECU and instrument solution with no compatability issues and relatively simple wiring is the dream of many kit car builders!!

And if the processing if over specced and Mtech spend the time on a decent software then it really could compete with the best systems out there.

As said about GEMS :-
Decent ECU and loom Ł2k
Top display set up Ł3.2k
video VBOx pro 4 camera Ł3.2k


So thats Almost Ł6.5k for a full set up with existing packages that offer decent performance and quality.

Thats a shit lot of money and based on what MTECH are saying, they could easily half that for the full package even less maybe.

SiZT

Look towards Link/Vipec for ideas on the ECU software

alistairolsen

The point is, there are loads of ECU offerings on the market, loads of cheap customisable displays of various quality and loads of traction control setups, but unlike a normal OEM car, none of it works together, you end up with racelogic traction control and a megasquirt ecu cos from memory 5 cylinder COP prevents you using the input youd want and then you need a stack dash and a full set of custom sensors cos theres no OBD port.

It would be a nice market leading idea if the option was at least there to integrate such things and tbh, if you have the spare inputs, there is no reason not to allow wheelspeed inputs into the ECU, nor to provide at least an OBD spec output, if not a microusb style affair.

The original MS allows mapping displays which could be used as a dash if the interface was a bit nicer, but its on a bloody com port which hasnt existed since Noah built the ark.

Psycho Warren

iTrader: (5)

oh and people are having to seek out old laptops or specialist business laptops to get the necessary serial port

stevieturbo

DTA can do 5 cyl, traction control with no issues. There are a variety of aftermarket dashes that will work of many ecu's serial datastream, or CAN datastream
TBH, Ive seen two Stack dashes in operation, and I think they're shit. The look nice when turned off, but the rev counter is steppy as fuck.
I actually thought the first one was faulty, but the next one I seen was identical.

But unless it's a bad system, the dash display should not need it's own sensors if the car already has a half decent aftermarket ecu. It can simply feed off the ecu.

However...any of the dash displays Ive seen are just totally bland. I dont like the LCD display, I think it actually makes them difficult to see important info at a glance.
A modern colour OLED type display would be a huge improvement.
The GEMS one looks nice...but far too bloody expensive. Even the Dashdaq looks decent...but they want a clean fortune for a license to work with a standalone...no thanks.

Given a Windows or Android tablet can be bought for a fraction of the price of dash displays...it really does make the dash displays look overpriced x 100

But whilst I did say at the start any ecu should provide an OBD datastream...it would largely be for novelty purposes only. Every ecu maker Ive asked about it says OBD is shit and very slow, so actually useless for a decent dash display.
I cant be ignored though given the multitude of cheap display options available for it though

foreigneRS

real world airflow in a dyno cell? a nice dream...

so you have a 500 bhp car at full chat. in the real world, that would be doing 150 mph on the road or whatever. do the maths and see what size fans you would need.

stevieturbo

I have more power than that and dont always do 150mph ?

And you dont need 150mph worth of airflow around the entire car on a dyno, just the frontal area of the radiator.

Many people like the bonnet up. I really dont get that. IMO the car should be tested as it is on the road, bonnet closed. That way air is always travelling in the same areas it would when on the road.

A decent dyno setup should have no issues with cooling whatsoever. One of the best fan setups I seen was at AET's place. It really does shift some air, and makes the dyno room bloody freezing !

Chip

iTrader: (3)

That wont be an issue, even the Mtec V4 in my clio turbo already has a mini USB port on it as well as the 9 pin, so I am sure Matt has no intention of going 9 pin for the lead, if there is a lead at all of course, as he already has his development version working by bluetooth IIRC.

Wifi would be ideal, its very high speed even for handling big volumes of data.

Stu @ M Developments

iTrader: (12)

I'm happy to give my opinion on the bonnet topic, but start a new topic guys as we are just going to ruin a perfectly good topic discussing it here.

stevieturbo

He's already listed RJ45 Ethernet, which is pretty universal so makes sense

CAN is another option but would need an adaptor, or direct USB the other


USB maybe the best as it is totally universal, all laptops or tablets have this. Wireless is nice, but battery life on laptops is shorter when WiFi is in operation, which can be an issue.

foreigneRS

CAN / USB adapters are very cheap these days. you can get VAGCOM ones for <Ł10

stevieturbo

Yes, but those are specific to VAGCOM and their communication protocols and software.

A standard generic adapter like SysTec is closer to Ł200...which seems like a rip off

grant_xr

Very interesting thread!

Don't know a lot about mapping myself and haven't read the whole thread so sorry if this has been covered!
Could the ecu have a feature to constantly monitor the air/fuel ratio and drop boost to a safe level if it becomes too lean? Could also activate a sounder if it gets too lean/rich.
Same goes for oil pressure, if it starts to drop too much the ecu goes into limp mode and sets off a sounder?
Could help save someones pride and joy before its too late so would be a very good selling point IMO.

Grant

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Yes those are pretty easy to do mate, with the GPC tables Matt is already planning on including.

Although the "drop the boost if it goes lean" thing the problem with that is then when you drop the boost it might go back rich again, and then keep kangarooing up and down.

grant_xr

Right enough, hadn't thought of that. Suppose it would need to log all data from when the incident happened so you gould plug your laptop in and pinpoint where the fault was.

foreigneRS

VAG COM just communicates over CAN. i'm sure that those adaptors can be used with other CAN protocols as long as the baud rate can be selected etc, which it must be capable of as the various systems in VAG cars that it will communicate with with have different speed buses (comfort bus is slower than EMS bus for example).

it just needs compatible drivers etc which if it can be done for VAG it can be done pretty easily for anything else. i work with CAN & CCP every day, so it's no mystery to me.

Rick

Everyone seems to be focusing on hardware. Hardware is cheap, and pretty easy. It's the software functions that make an ECU and they are not cheap or easy! Who is going to write the wall wetting algorithm? What about the cranking, after start and warmup routines? Will these be based on coolant an air temperature at crank? If you are serious, then 3D tables don't cut it, you need fully defined functions. Someone needs to write these, or you need to have the ability to write them in Matlab and then import.

Rick

stevieturbo

Those are basics every ecu has. So goes without saying. And it is largely software requests that have been mentioned.

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Those algorythms are a lot easier to "develop" in any new ECU now given that there are examples in the public domain, same as writing most other types of software these days.

stevieturbo

Matt, go to pistonheads engine and drivetrain section. Max_torque posted a thread recently. Get in touch with him. He's a very smart guy

stu21t

Is this possible?
could you have wifi fitted and be used like this:

If I have fitted your ecu and I'm at home with my car connected to my house wifi then you can communicate with it over the Internet?
Then if I needed help with something or settings changed for example, I had changed cams you could log into my car, change the settings to get me running safely until I get to a pro to get it sorted?

Or is that what you mean by wifi anyway? Lol

stevieturbo

Nothing new about that. All that needs is a decent internet connection at both ends for the two laptops to communicate.

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Agreed, you could RDP to a laptop thats using a 9 pin serial lead in fact on any old ecu, although I think he is saying without a laptop at the car end?

BigPeBe

This is a safety feature I thought about few days ago while live mapping my car alone, at least couldn't find it in Megasquirt 1 V2.2 with Tunerstudio.

Since I have to keep my eyes on the road and not on the gauges, I can't see my AFR during the pull. There is already boost cut, if it over boosts which is nice, but I was wondering why there is no AFR cut.
For instance configure the ecu to cut spark/fuel if you are over a certain MAP and RPM value and it goes leaner than you want, like. 13:1 or so.

This wasn't a problem really because the base map I was tuning from was bloody fat on fuel, but it would be nice to know it isn't possible to lean it out during a pull.

Karlos G

iTrader: (4)

I don't know if MS1 supports it but if you were running a newer MS based ECU you can have a warning light/buzzer for AFR vs MAP, great safety feature for any high output car IMO so definitely one to include Matt! Spark cut would be even better of course, or a combination of the two.

BigPeBe

Yeah I had a google on the subject and it seems that MS3 features this AFR warning and even the cut off. It's just a bit more complicated, you input the desired AFR values on the AFR target map and tell the ECU how much difference you want it to allow before cut off.
It's nice, but I think that a simpler system like I described earlier would be easier to use since when mapping there may be areas on the map what aren't yet close to the AFR target map.