zetecbeast

Right chaps.
Ive had a right nightmare with this car for the past week... (dax kit car)

To summarise things, clutch slave failed so I replaced it, I also replaced the alternator with a new one as it was overcharging at about 15.2volts with everything on, and after I had replaced rectifier and regulator in it.

Went to start the car the other day as the sun was out

and nothing. Nada. the car turned over happily but wouldn't start.
The clutch fluid reservoir is in a daft place under the dash and needs unbolting and lifting out to fill it.

I thought I might have pulled a connector out of the wiring loom under the dash. Theres a few spade connectors under there.

After several days of tracing wires and trying to find the problem. I am not better off. I even got a supposedly good local auto electrician out who was totally stumped and knew less than me... (there goes £45)

There is power to the Pectel T2 ecu. There is 12v on the injector wires and ignition wires to the Pectel (Ive got the plug diagram thank god)

but theres no action at the engine

No spark. No fuel. Zip.
Just turns over.

I am seriously getting pissed off with it Anyone got any suggestions?


Should the pectel connector plug have voltage at the pins for injectors and ignition coil? I would have thought the pectel should send the voltage out to them, seeing as it has power from the battery on a different pin??

I am new to standalones

Any help really would be appreciated


Ive read this thread
https://passionford.com/forum/genera...agnostics.html

but cant get descpro working and dont have the bloody base map!! It is a formula ford T2 as Ive had it apart today

zetecbeast

its getting to the point where if I cant fix it in a week or two, the engines coming out to make way for the new one and Im going to do a complete new loom myself.... not really looking forward to that option though!

robp-tt

iTrader: (1)

What's the battery voltage? if its below 10v the ecu won't power up. Did it run ok after you fixed the altanator issue?

zetecbeast

Cheers mate.
Ive charged the battery on a decent charger and it wont start even whjen its full. Ive also added a battery booster on for later attempts when I have been trying to get it going!

NO, it has not run since I replaced the alternator. But I think this is more coincidence than anything?!
It should run without the alternator (or start at least) and I have actually disconnected the power feed from battery to it and also the warning lamp wire, and its made zip all difference

Turns over, no spark, no fuel, no start!!! aaagh

stevieturbo

Does the fuel pump prime when you key on ?

luke19790_3

Have you checked the cps sensor?

XR4iSilver

It is actually 14 volts minimum to the t2
get a loom made speak to Ahmed Bayjoo or mark at grove can have a loom made making your problem half ! and he is the best for mapping a T2 !

robp-tt

iTrader: (1)

Why would it be 14v if its a 12v system? i was told by both ahmed and Ian Howell that the ecuneeds 10v min for it to power up

zetecbeast

No priming from fuel pump mate .
how can I check crank sensor please?

Cheers xr4i silver. the loom is good for the ecu . it's the car loom that I need to redo ! as I don't have the base map I can't use desk pro (if I can get it working) to check the t2!!! might have to go mega squirt 3.. Nitemare

stevieturbo

If the pump doesnt prime on key on, you can either assume the ecu is not powering up, or it is dead. ( same thing really lol )

At least I'll assume the Pectel does prime the pump on key on as every efi ecu does.

zetecbeast

Indeed. That was my worst thought..!! can't see how the ecu has suddenly died tho

zetecbeast

Does anyone know a way to definitively test if the ECU is the problem or not?

Pectel T2, thanks

robp-tt

iTrader: (1)

If you need to see if the ecu is working you could send it to ahmed for him to do all his checks on it. Also if its a ff ecu,has it been unlocked? If it hasn't it will need to be unlocked before its remaped and that costs quite a bit

zetecbeast

Good idea mate. The only place I can find links to Ahmed is Grove garage? so Ive sent them an email. Depending on cost, it may have to be sent to them

the problem is that as I dont have the base file and its probably locked, Im not sure if the car would need remapping or what?! If that was the case I will just go balls deep and take the engine out, new wiring loom , the new engine Ive got and new ecu and mapping. But thats a major amount of work and I am moving house in the next few months , getting a better garage so don't really want it in bits before then. In fact thats partly why Im moving house, so I can have more space lol

I still cant see how it can have blown, is there an internal fuse in a T2? i cant see zip thats like a fuse in there. IN fact I cant believe how basic the pcb is...!

Are there any T2 people who can tell me how to fault find on it?

robp-tt

iTrader: (1)

I don't know how to fault find on the ecu but asfar as i know there isn't any internal fuses in there.
Might be worth checking your cps aswell. I had issues with mine starting when i first built mineaand it was caused by the starter motor causing interference with the cps so the enginewwouldn't start.changed the starter for a new one and it fired up first time

polly_x

iTrader: (2)

Try another crank sensor.

Ideally plug laptop in and using the Pectel software you will probably see the fault right away. Deskpro will show you the sensor readings and my guess is you will have zero RPM when cranking which would lead me to crank sensor.

stevieturbo

Except it wouldnt matter one bit about the crank sensor for the fuel pump to initially prime on key on.

Two simple things.

Check the ecu is getting power and ground. And then hook up a laptop to see if it responds

polly_x

iTrader: (2)

Steve, the fuel pump prime can be effected by dodgy crank sensor I have found when initial ignition priming on the Pectels.

But as you say. Hook laptop and descpro up to see what's going on.

Stu

stevieturbo

Fair enough, it is unusual though.

On most ecu's, pump priming is a given. It occurs every time the key is cycled almost regardless. Ive never used a Pectel, so just going by what other ecu's do.

Gadget

I would first of all send the ecu to either Ahmed / Mark at Grove, or Harvey at SCS, then i would go from there. If it's all clear, then happy days.
If it was ok before the alternator was charging at 15v, then i'd start there,
Maybe the overcharging of the alternator has fried the ecu?

zetecbeast

thanks guys,
robtt/polly_x

Funny you mention that as I have removed the crank sensor tonight and ordered a new one off ebay. I am really hoping that is the problem, but am not sure if it is or not.
Like Stevie says, I am surprised the pump isn't at least priming, but I know zero about Pectels!
The weird thing is there is 12v at the INJ pins on the ecu connnector, at the IGN pins, at the PUMP pin, and the earth tests out ok too. There is 12v to the ECU PWR pin as well.
I was under the impression that the ECU would recieved 12v power and then send power out via itself to the injectors etc? Im guessing I am wrong on this

Gadget - cheers. Ahmed emailed me back today and has said he will happily take a look at it. Which is good in one sense but not much comfort until I actually know what caused the damaged if it is damaged...

Once I have the new crank sensor I reckon that will tell all.... :/


I only have a crap old version of deskpro that needs Win 98 polly_x.
I cant get it to work on Windows 7 and even if I used a VM, my laptop doesnt have a serial port (my lead is rs232) so I will have to try and use my old XP laptop, which it still wont work on!! Has anyone got modern deskpro by any chance?

stevieturbo

ecu only outputs grounds. Although terminals may read 12v when in an "off" state.

ajamesc

Have you checked the lives and earths at the ecu and its out puts?
May be an idea to load test all the lives with a bulb then all the ecu earths with a bulb use a good 12 supply to rule out any wiring faults in the loom!
Checking with a muti meter can some times lead you away from a fault as you can get 12v's through 1 strand of wire. Testing with a bulb puts the wire under load and will show up a fault

zetecbeast

If only the Pectel manual explained it that simply


ajamessc// good idea mate. I will do this in the morning and report back findings against a pin out of the ecu connector

I cant do much else until the new crank sensor arrives I suppose. Is there any way to test the crank sensor? is there a resistance reading it should fall within does anyone know?>

Another thought I had while racking my brain, is that the clutch slave is right above the crank sensor on the car. When I bled the clutch on my own I just used a rag to catch fluid but it missed a load. I wonder if it shorted the crank sensor out...?

ajamesc

Always best to go with the free checks first lol
I've seen people quick to point at an ecu or components loads of times because of high resistance in a loom only to say I checked it with my multi meter lol
Not that I'm saying it will be that I don't no how that system works like the others say maybe the crank sensor or even the ecu but defo worth checking the wiring out fully if it dose point to the ecu!

zetecbeast

indeed. I tested it with multimater against a pinout and all seemed ok but will retest it tomorrow and see what we have got going on.!! It's starting to p*ss me off a bit so I ordered 2 auto electric wiring books off amazon to prepare myself for doing a new loom for my new engine lol.
It might also help me get to the bottom of this nightmare!

ajamesc

Wirings not that hard if you have a diagram and the data to go with it!
At the end of the day it's just a component that will need a live and an earth that gives a signal or receives a signal too or from another component

zetecbeast

The problem with this is as its a custom built (kit) car some of the dash wiring has been meddled with and a few connectors need sorting, new wires here and there, nothing too bad but I also have zero wiring diagrams for the majority of the car though I have the Pectel plug pinouts..
.Stuff has been altered though as it had a clifford alarm removed due to a battery drain problem (it wasnt the clifford). Then it had a new alarm fitted so Im still trying to get my head round it a bit.

For my last mondeo or another factory car I am ok with manufacturers diagrams and wire colours. But when all the wires are random colours or change colours along the way it gets fun!!not
But I'm geting there. I've got no option but to fix it myself!

zetecbeast

Right... I've been looking at this again this avo
Removed the crank sensor, 347 ohms across it. I don't know the stock reading but I am convinced it is not the culprit. Although I have a new one on the way.

I badly need to know if the pump should prime regardless of anything else when ignition is switched to ON.. I am going to ring Ahmed if I can get a number and ask him tomorrow before I send it off to him.

BUt basically, I have done a diagram showing my results for the pinout tests on the ECU connector (shown on the left of the picture). Either !2v, OK if the ground is complete, or '-' if not in use.

I used my lightbulb tester thing. When I tested across the pump terminal on the ecu connector... the pump primed... meaning I am thinking the ECU is the problem ???

I hope I am wrong. If anyone sees anything from the results please let me know. WHen I test one of the terminals on the fuel pump relay (one out of the 4 terminals does not have 12 v), the pump also primes.

stevieturbo

What is ok supposed to mean ? And what does zero mean, and how are you testing ?

If pin 25 is the 5v reference out, are you getting 5v at that pin ? If so, the ecu would be deemed to be powering up.

zetecbeast

Sorry, 'OK' means 12 volts .
I was using an auto electrical light tester. Clip one end of the clip on to + or ground and point the probe at the point you are testing!!

Zero means I got ZERO Volts. BUt to be fair I was rushing this and did get a 2volt reading off one of the sensors yesterday with multimeter... will recheck it now.

I used a multimeter yesterday as mentioned and iirc I got 0v at the pin 25.... I will have to recheck it in a bit to confirm
cheers

stevieturbo

A light tester would be useless, at a minimum you need a multimeter.

So zero doesnt mean zero...you just mean the light didnt light ?

And to say OK for 12v on a sensor ground from the ecu....clearly that is totally wrong.

The test is not valid.

zetecbeast

Ok, I've not explained the testing very well, and/or done it wrong....
Right, I tested the whole thing with a multimeter the other day and was in a rush so was only really checking for power at the ECU. I briefly tested some other pins but didnt note voltage.

I have just retested the whole thing with my multimeter and heres the outcome...

(with regards to the light tester. I was following advice from a poster in this thread...I did think that a multimeter was needed hence why I used one initially, but thought it may be valid for things with 12v expected)
Yes, that's incorrect my saying 12v at ground...! what I meant was when I put the clip on battery + and the negative probe on to the ground terminal, the light came on. and opposite for the pins that were meant to have voltage. Maybe this is completely incorrect?!!)

Anyway, multimeter says:

(with ignition in the ON position)

Vref +5v termninal 25 = 5 volts
PIn 24 has 5 volts
Pin 23 ECT has 2.6V
Pin 22 TPS has 0.97 volts
Pin 21 CAM sensor has 0v

Pin 13 is an empty pin so cant be tested
Pin 12 - sensor ground - I got a resistance reading of 134 ohms with ignition on. I got continuity to an earth point on the car with ignition off

Pin 11 ACT has 2.6 volts
Pin 10 is empty - there is no lambda sensor..
PIn 9 MAF has 2.1volts
Pin 8 Crank sensor has 0 volts
PIn 7 RS232TX has 9 volts


Pins 5 and 18 (GROUNDS) I got a resistance reading similar to Pin 12 (sensor ground *approx 100 ohms). With ignition off I got continuity to an earth point on the chassis.

I hope this is clearer and please tell me if I tested something wrong (or am misunderstanding something) and I will retest once I know the right way. I am finding my way here.... I've not had to get into such meddlings before.

THANKS

ajamesc

I suggested using a bulb to test the wiring in the loom I.e load testing the wires not testing ecu out puts.
When it comes to testing looms there's no better test than using a bulb as you can test each wire if you have a long earth lead to connect to ground and a power probe!

zetecbeast

I tested the loom in all the areas that I could see being related. All seemed ok.
Misunderstood about the ecu pinouts! Never mind, only took 2 minutes so no harm done.

stevieturbo

It does sound like the ecu is powering up. Otherwise you wouldnt be getting 5v out, and also the sensor inputs where you also see 5v....again, this is an indication the ecu is live.

When you test with a meter between 12v and fuel pump output, does anything register on your meter when you key on ?

Forgetting for a second that you dont actually hear the pump prime, which could be a faulty pump/wiring/relay.

I wouldnt put a bulb near any ecy output even for a test. An LED maybe, but not a lamp. ( ie power probe with an LED ) Many ecu outputs arent tolerant of loads across them, and a simple bulb could be too much for some.

Really laptop comms would be best option though, or get the ecu shipped off for testing

But lets face it, failed ecu's are very very rare.

zetecbeast

It would seem to indicate its not dead.. Though I'm not sure why I don't get any voltage from cam and crank sensor? hopefully Mr Bayjoo can help me out with this info!

roger that regards bulb testing ecu pinouts. Won't do that one again.. I will test pump output and post back.

I'm going to try and get deskpro working on my laptop. I've got an rs232 to USB 2 adapter coming and have setup a vm with win 98 on my win 7 laptop.. hope to hell it works lol . the rs232 comms of the ecu is simple as it gets so I hope the adapter works with it . Also hope the deskpro disc I got with the car and ecu has all the stuff I need to connect to the damned thing!! Will update this thread . If any other pectel t2 owners see this and use deskpro please post up!

adam03957

Q), seen as no body has mentioned it, have you checked for power at the fuel pump,

Pump fuses / Relays etc, pumps can die for seemingly no reason depending on age/condition

zetecbeast

Adam. a good point indeed mate. no, there is no power at the fuel pump!! if I jump power to it, it runs. Also there is power at the fuel pump relay. I need to trace a wire going deep into the car that appears to signal the pump to run from the ecu I'm guessing. Will be investigating that more tonite . Have changed fuel pump relay and fuse for new with no difference mate.
I might try powering the pump direct and then see if the car starts?

stevieturbo

Have you tested the crank and cam sensor with a scope to see if a signal is produced when cranking ?

Otherwise, you cannot tell if they are working or not. They generate their own power/signal. You could use a digital meter to get a crude idea if they are working or not though.

http://www.labscopes.com/index_files/Page550.htm

And as Ive said already, ignore the pump at the minute. Test the fuel pump output properly as Ive described.