Advice needed: Low readings dyno shoot -> RE-RUN!!
#81
Wim,
No probs, a better intercooler would keep more of the power for more of the time, but as you're not doing track days or holding it flat out for long periods, then the fact that the intercooler sits on top of the radiator won't be so much of an issue. Just appreciate that in any static scenario you'll run into heat soak issues .
No probs, a better intercooler would keep more of the power for more of the time, but as you're not doing track days or holding it flat out for long periods, then the fact that the intercooler sits on top of the radiator won't be so much of an issue. Just appreciate that in any static scenario you'll run into heat soak issues .
#82
Forgot to say that the best fans I have seen were the ones at AVA, unfortunately the pics are at work and this is the only one I have at home:
Took two people holding on to the bonnet to stop it from blowing back onto the screen and you could lean into the flow and the flow woul support you (like high winds on a ferry).
If memory serves me correctly, it was 25Kw (although only managing 18Kw on the day due to power supply issues) and even that had issues cooling my car, where it made 320bhp @ the wheels at 1.2 bar with 40 deg ACTs (a rare 30 deg ambient Scottish day LOL) and then only 395bhp @ the wheels @ 2.2 bar (with the water injection running flat out and the charge temps still in the 50s).
Took two people holding on to the bonnet to stop it from blowing back onto the screen and you could lean into the flow and the flow woul support you (like high winds on a ferry).
If memory serves me correctly, it was 25Kw (although only managing 18Kw on the day due to power supply issues) and even that had issues cooling my car, where it made 320bhp @ the wheels at 1.2 bar with 40 deg ACTs (a rare 30 deg ambient Scottish day LOL) and then only 395bhp @ the wheels @ 2.2 bar (with the water injection running flat out and the charge temps still in the 50s).
25kW is 33bhp - that's as much airflow as a 250cc motorbike can push out of the way at full speed
Last edited by foreigneRS; 01-05-2012 at 06:26 AM.
#83
#84
I didn't say it was perfect, but given that as you say most are in single figures, it's just the best I've seen
#85
Although obviously if your 330bhp saph is only having 10% of that air pushed through the rad and cooler then maybe a well ducted 33bhp fan is upto the job?
As obviously the vast majority of the air that is pushed through by the car doesnt go through the rad etc.
#86
#87
i dont get the issue with the bonnet open it makes fuck all difference at all ! think about this then, check a car at brunters say to 200 mph and all is fine with a strong tail wind, then get on the autobahn 200 mph headwind uphill gradient the conditions have changed, a dyno also applies alot of braking force to the hub / tyre to put it under load maybe even more load than it will see in that gear on the road, come to think of it my supra took longer to hit the limiter in 5th on the dyno than it takes on the road suggesting it was under more load than in real world conditions.
#88
You know all I was trying to relate in simple terms how powerful it was compared to other fans . I just haven't experienced anything as powerful as these before or since.
As you can see by the ducting, and with the car positioned so that it is almost touching this, it is well ducted into the key area.
APT's one is the next best I have seen, and their monster fan is very well ducted and with a reducer it speeds up flow as well . I'm sure Gary will post up pictures .
As you can see by the ducting, and with the car positioned so that it is almost touching this, it is well ducted into the key area.
APT's one is the next best I have seen, and their monster fan is very well ducted and with a reducer it speeds up flow as well . I'm sure Gary will post up pictures .
#90
TBH if fed by a decent proper ducted fan through the front I would think the normal fan would hinder flow rather than help it if anything, probably better off removing it from the car, although not exactly practical to do every time a car goes on the rollers of course, lol
i dont get the issue with the bonnet open it makes fuck all difference at all ! think about this then, check a car at brunters say to 200 mph and all is fine with a strong tail wind, then get on the autobahn 200 mph headwind uphill gradient the conditions have changed, a dyno also applies alot of braking force to the hub / tyre to put it under load maybe even more load than it will see in that gear on the road, come to think of it my supra took longer to hit the limiter in 5th on the dyno than it takes on the road suggesting it was under more load than in real world conditions.
TBH though I doubt many cars that do 200 at brunters ever intend to do it for 50 miles of autobahn, well not in the context of cossies anyway!
#91
As you can see by the ducting, and with the car positioned so that it is almost touching this, it is well ducted into the key area.
#92
The car should be tested in it's normal state.
And besides, if the fan system is adequate, no way should the bonnet be able to stay open on it's own. It would get blown all over the place and off it's normal hook thing.
#93
Will it?
TBH if fed by a decent proper ducted fan through the front I would think the normal fan would hinder flow rather than help it if anything, probably better off removing it from the car, although not exactly practical to do every time a car goes on the rollers of course, lol
You could trail the break a bit at brunters to simulate extra load, but you wouldnt hit 200 anymore, lol
TBH though I doubt many cars that do 200 at brunters ever intend to do it for 50 miles of autobahn, well not in the context of cossies anyway!
TBH if fed by a decent proper ducted fan through the front I would think the normal fan would hinder flow rather than help it if anything, probably better off removing it from the car, although not exactly practical to do every time a car goes on the rollers of course, lol
You could trail the break a bit at brunters to simulate extra load, but you wouldnt hit 200 anymore, lol
TBH though I doubt many cars that do 200 at brunters ever intend to do it for 50 miles of autobahn, well not in the context of cossies anyway!
#94
i dont see how stu it will just let the air into the bay that would of deflected of the bonnet, and thats all it would do on my supra there is hardly any front lip to the bonnet at all.
#96
However on the rollers there isnt.
Them cutting in or not will be of no use under load.
#97
Thats a really interesting way to look at it, given that at full chat pretty much all your engine is achieving is moving air out of the way (sure there are losses like friction to road etc, but they are tiny by comparison) it does put into perspective just how powerful a fan you would need to have to replicate those conditions.
Although obviously if your 330bhp saph is only having 10% of that air pushed through the rad and cooler then maybe a well ducted 33bhp fan is upto the job?
As obviously the vast majority of the air that is pushed through by the car doesnt go through the rad etc.
Although obviously if your 330bhp saph is only having 10% of that air pushed through the rad and cooler then maybe a well ducted 33bhp fan is upto the job?
As obviously the vast majority of the air that is pushed through by the car doesnt go through the rad etc.
i would say that the AVA setup that Mike has posted is probably adequate for power runs. is it adequate for flat out mapping? possibly not. and certainly not representative if the bonnet is open.
#98
That comment made me lol, yeah true chipper, the fans are just about adequate for idling in traffic not a engine at full load
#99
Was orginally on a Dyno but checked on a RR at a Volvo shootout . We had no probs with fans but strapping was a bit of a problem they have since got a set of high power straps so it would make more Power with those fitted. 809bhp to prove despite a whole thread of its hard it aint if car is properly sorted.
#102
Was orginally on a Dyno but checked on a RR at a Volvo shootout . We had no probs with fans but strapping was a bit of a problem they have since got a set of high power straps so it would make more Power with those fitted. 809bhp to prove despite a whole thread of its hard it aint if car is properly sorted.
I was there that day, it was awesome to watch!
#103
PassionFords Creator
iTrader: (12)
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 28,824
Likes: 95
From: Blackpool, UK Destination: Rev limiter
Even worse, some cars intercoolers dont work at all with the bonnet open, Impreza's and Pulsars are two great examples of this.
High engine load requires high cooling not only of the inlet, but also the sump, gearbox, differentials and ancillaries like ignition amplifiers etc. many cars even have fans to cool ECU's nowadays so they dont get too hot in traffic. Then we have the often forgotten exhaust primaries. What do you think your 1000deg C exhaust manifold is exhausting its heat to if its not atmosphere? Yep... your cylinder head, turbocharger core and exhaust valves... these items are all designed with huge amounts of air cooling to ensure longevity, which is why you should only wrap them when the temps your going to be seeing are a real danger to adjacent components unless your confident the items it is bolted to can take the extra thermal capacity.
Finally, at high road speeds your turbos inlet ratio also changes slighty as you hit positive pressure which affects the compressor map somewhat.
The list is endless really... have you ever felt the temperature of your tyres after a good few dyno runs? LOL
#104
Another reason not to open the bonnet is it can also give you a false positive aswell.
What i mean is with the bonnet shut you could have airflow problems that you dont have with the bonnet up.
A friend had this on his scooby.
With the bonnet up his engine was much better than bonnet down, (i assume it had more access to air) it actually made 70bhp more with the bonnet up as the air filter had more air and with it down must have been blocked in some way. (1 run bonnet down then opened bonnet to do next run, nothing else touched and literally 2 mins after 1st run)
( he didnt have an airbox, top mount.....)
And can i say, GREAT THREAD, with karl, stu and mark posting, and good technical stuff too, not seen that for a while!
Keep it up
What i mean is with the bonnet shut you could have airflow problems that you dont have with the bonnet up.
A friend had this on his scooby.
With the bonnet up his engine was much better than bonnet down, (i assume it had more access to air) it actually made 70bhp more with the bonnet up as the air filter had more air and with it down must have been blocked in some way. (1 run bonnet down then opened bonnet to do next run, nothing else touched and literally 2 mins after 1st run)
( he didnt have an airbox, top mount.....)
And can i say, GREAT THREAD, with karl, stu and mark posting, and good technical stuff too, not seen that for a while!
Keep it up
Last edited by stu21t; 01-05-2012 at 03:56 PM.
#105
#106
Thats a full drag set up
not road legal
but very good
#108
On "your" car maybe, maybe not as I havent seen it, but on many cars the engine only works properly with the bonnet down, and some are designed in such a way as the frontal area is ducted to create a positive pressure in the airbox (just as pretty much all motorcycles have done for 20+ years)
Even worse, some cars intercoolers dont work at all with the bonnet open, Impreza's and Pulsars are two great examples of this.
High engine load requires high cooling not only of the inlet, but also the sump, gearbox, differentials and ancillaries like ignition amplifiers etc. many cars even have fans to cool ECU's nowadays so they dont get too hot in traffic. Then we have the often forgotten exhaust primaries. What do you think your 1000deg C exhaust manifold is exhausting its heat to if its not atmosphere? Yep... your cylinder head, turbocharger core and exhaust valves... these items are all designed with huge amounts of air cooling to ensure longevity, which is why you should only wrap them when the temps your going to be seeing are a real danger to adjacent components unless your confident the items it is bolted to can take the extra thermal capacity.
Finally, at high road speeds your turbos inlet ratio also changes slighty as you hit positive pressure which affects the compressor map somewhat.
The list is endless really... have you ever felt the temperature of your tyres after a good few dyno runs? LOL
Even worse, some cars intercoolers dont work at all with the bonnet open, Impreza's and Pulsars are two great examples of this.
High engine load requires high cooling not only of the inlet, but also the sump, gearbox, differentials and ancillaries like ignition amplifiers etc. many cars even have fans to cool ECU's nowadays so they dont get too hot in traffic. Then we have the often forgotten exhaust primaries. What do you think your 1000deg C exhaust manifold is exhausting its heat to if its not atmosphere? Yep... your cylinder head, turbocharger core and exhaust valves... these items are all designed with huge amounts of air cooling to ensure longevity, which is why you should only wrap them when the temps your going to be seeing are a real danger to adjacent components unless your confident the items it is bolted to can take the extra thermal capacity.
Finally, at high road speeds your turbos inlet ratio also changes slighty as you hit positive pressure which affects the compressor map somewhat.
The list is endless really... have you ever felt the temperature of your tyres after a good few dyno runs? LOL
#110
Dont forget the very useful inputs of Turbosystems and Mike Rainbird too!
I will confront the dyno operator with all this info and hopefully will get another session on good conditions.
Thanks all!
#113
Also you will benefit so much from fitting a RS500 size intercooler as you have been told so many times
Steve
#114
#116
yes its still there turbo and nos ,it ran 9.9 in march .will see what it does this weekend
#117
#118
#119
#120
I have been to the dyno shop and explained all. They understand what has gone wrong with these act that has caused the ecu to act in the way it did.
I get a re-run with decent cooling!
I get a re-run with decent cooling!