Advice needed: Low readings dyno shoot -> RE-RUN!!
29-04-2012, 07:56 PM
#41
No, there is no rolling road I know of in a tuning environment that is good enough to replicate accurate top speed conditions. I have had the opertunity to work on a couple of OE car manufacturers wind tunnel rolling roads and thats as good as it gets, but certainly no tuning outfit has anything like that setup!
That's not to say it can't be valuable taking your car to a well setup rolling road, because a good operator can certainly get a good feel for how well the car is mapped, which is much better than having no idea how the car is setup. The biggest problem comes in extreme setups. With the YB engines I am up at over 10,000rpm and boost pressures approaching 3.5 bar (more to come!) and these conditions cannot be simulated accurately on the rolling road. Detonation, heat and specifically EGT's are so critical under top speed conditions, it simply has to be mapped in car to be confident it will last! Remember thats how all OE manufacturers do it, engine dyno for development followed by months and months of live mapping in all conditions all over the world! No OE car manufacturer ever goes near a rolling road for mapping, end of story!
That's not to say it can't be valuable taking your car to a well setup rolling road, because a good operator can certainly get a good feel for how well the car is mapped, which is much better than having no idea how the car is setup. The biggest problem comes in extreme setups. With the YB engines I am up at over 10,000rpm and boost pressures approaching 3.5 bar (more to come!) and these conditions cannot be simulated accurately on the rolling road. Detonation, heat and specifically EGT's are so critical under top speed conditions, it simply has to be mapped in car to be confident it will last! Remember thats how all OE manufacturers do it, engine dyno for development followed by months and months of live mapping in all conditions all over the world! No OE car manufacturer ever goes near a rolling road for mapping, end of story!
29-04-2012, 07:57 PM
#42
Norris Motorsport
Hi steve, yes a setup like that is by far the most preferable if you are going to use a rolling road. Allthough I have never been, I have heard great things about AET's setup. It's the places that roll out the pathetic low KW fans that barely make 30mph wind speeds, no ducting whatsoever (usually fan is about 5 ft away! ha ha) so you literally may as well place a board infront of your intercooler and rad and do a top speed run for the amount of usefull cooling most places have!
29-04-2012, 08:02 PM
#43
Norris Motorsport
JamesH,
I am fully aware of what OE manufactures do, having spent many hours myself on rolling roads doing emission based driving simulation cycles. However I said "mapping" on rolling roads, specifically referring to held throttle conditions. You and I both know transient conditions are completely irrelevant to flat out reliability! The reason for using a rolling road in these cases is simply because we have to monitor all emissions, including evaporative emissions and hence a sealed environment is required.
I am fully aware of what OE manufactures do, having spent many hours myself on rolling roads doing emission based driving simulation cycles. However I said "mapping" on rolling roads, specifically referring to held throttle conditions. You and I both know transient conditions are completely irrelevant to flat out reliability! The reason for using a rolling road in these cases is simply because we have to monitor all emissions, including evaporative emissions and hence a sealed environment is required.
Last edited by Karl; 29-04-2012 at 08:03 PM.
29-04-2012, 08:02 PM
#44
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lol
lol )
YBJ think you need to invest in a 500 i/cooler well worth it bud
29-04-2012, 08:07 PM
#45
Thanks for your advice, but in this setup were I only use my car on the road the 4x4 intercooler does its job very good. And my thoughts are in line with these words Karl just wrote:
Actually whilst on this topic let me make another comment regarding ACT's. You cannot judge how good an intercooler is from the rolling road. You need to do sustained high speed runs in 4th and 5th gear holding full throttle for at least 10 seconds. Only then can the suitability of an intercooler be judged! (I recall seeing some of the comics doing intercooler tests on the rolling road!! ha ha ha!)
Last edited by YBJ; 29-04-2012 at 08:11 PM.
29-04-2012, 08:09 PM
#46
JamesH,
I am fully aware of what OE manufactures do, having spent many hours myself on rolling roads doing emission based driving simulation cycles. However I said "mapping" on rolling roads, specifically referring to held throttle conditions. You and I both know transient conditions are completely irrelevant to flat out reliability! The reason for using a rolling road in these cases is simply because we have to monitor all emissions, including evaporative emissions and hence a sealed environment is required.
I am fully aware of what OE manufactures do, having spent many hours myself on rolling roads doing emission based driving simulation cycles. However I said "mapping" on rolling roads, specifically referring to held throttle conditions. You and I both know transient conditions are completely irrelevant to flat out reliability! The reason for using a rolling road in these cases is simply because we have to monitor all emissions, including evaporative emissions and hence a sealed environment is required.
I'd say mapping is any change made to a map, be it for drivability, fuel consumption, limitations, emissions etc
29-04-2012, 08:20 PM
#47
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yes the 4x4 cooler is very good dont get me wrong but the two are like
night and day when comparing to each other when i changed mine the
difference was huge a worthy investment
29-04-2012, 08:23 PM
#48
Norris Motorsport
James,
I personally would refer to transient conditions as mapping, BUT from the perspective of the average petrol head reading this site, most understand mapping to mean adjusting the more basic (and ultimately more important when it comes to reliability) functions such as major fuel/ignition/boost tables, and it is these functions that no OE manufacturer calibrates on a rolling road.
Don't forget also, that many transient strategies are not visable to the aftermarket mapper and are only alterable by the OE manufacturer or OE ecu manufacturer.
In any case we are making trivial points, yes OE manufacturers use rolling roads in sealed environments to monitor emissions and evaporative losses, but they don't use rolling roads for full load mapping, which was the actual point I was getting at!
I personally would refer to transient conditions as mapping, BUT from the perspective of the average petrol head reading this site, most understand mapping to mean adjusting the more basic (and ultimately more important when it comes to reliability) functions such as major fuel/ignition/boost tables, and it is these functions that no OE manufacturer calibrates on a rolling road.
Don't forget also, that many transient strategies are not visable to the aftermarket mapper and are only alterable by the OE manufacturer or OE ecu manufacturer.
In any case we are making trivial points, yes OE manufacturers use rolling roads in sealed environments to monitor emissions and evaporative losses, but they don't use rolling roads for full load mapping, which was the actual point I was getting at!
Last edited by Karl; 29-04-2012 at 08:25 PM.
29-04-2012, 08:31 PM
#49
James,
I personally would refer to transient conditions as mapping, BUT from the perspective of the average petrol head reading this site, most understand mapping to mean adjusting the more basic (and ultimately more important when it comes to reliability) functions such as major fuel/ignition/boost tables, and it is these functions that no OE manufacturer calibrates on a rolling road.
Don't forget also, that many transient strategies are not visable to the aftermarket mapper and are only alterable by the OE manufacturer or OE ecu manufacturer.
In any case we are making trivial points, yes OE manufacturers use rolling roads in sealed environments to monitor emissions and evaporative losses, but they don't use rolling roads for full load mapping, which was the actual point I was getting at!
I personally would refer to transient conditions as mapping, BUT from the perspective of the average petrol head reading this site, most understand mapping to mean adjusting the more basic (and ultimately more important when it comes to reliability) functions such as major fuel/ignition/boost tables, and it is these functions that no OE manufacturer calibrates on a rolling road.
Don't forget also, that many transient strategies are not visable to the aftermarket mapper and are only alterable by the OE manufacturer or OE ecu manufacturer.
In any case we are making trivial points, yes OE manufacturers use rolling roads in sealed environments to monitor emissions and evaporative losses, but they don't use rolling roads for full load mapping, which was the actual point I was getting at!
Completely agree Karl!
As you stated, all FL mapping etc is done on a test bed (dyno cell), or in vehicle on the road/runway
30-04-2012, 06:15 AM
#50
Testing the future
No, there is no rolling road I know of in a tuning environment that is good enough to replicate accurate top speed conditions. I have had the opertunity to work on a couple of OE car manufacturers wind tunnel rolling roads and thats as good as it gets, but certainly no tuning outfit has anything like that setup!
That's not to say it can't be valuable taking your car to a well setup rolling road, because a good operator can certainly get a good feel for how well the car is mapped, which is much better than having no idea how the car is setup. The biggest problem comes in extreme setups. With the YB engines I am up at over 10,000rpm and boost pressures approaching 3.5 bar (more to come!) and these conditions cannot be simulated accurately on the rolling road. Detonation, heat and specifically EGT's are so critical under top speed conditions, it simply has to be mapped in car to be confident it will last! Remember thats how all OE manufacturers do it, engine dyno for development followed by months and months of live mapping in all conditions all over the world! No OE car manufacturer ever goes near a rolling road for mapping, end of story!
That's not to say it can't be valuable taking your car to a well setup rolling road, because a good operator can certainly get a good feel for how well the car is mapped, which is much better than having no idea how the car is setup. The biggest problem comes in extreme setups. With the YB engines I am up at over 10,000rpm and boost pressures approaching 3.5 bar (more to come!) and these conditions cannot be simulated accurately on the rolling road. Detonation, heat and specifically EGT's are so critical under top speed conditions, it simply has to be mapped in car to be confident it will last! Remember thats how all OE manufacturers do it, engine dyno for development followed by months and months of live mapping in all conditions all over the world! No OE car manufacturer ever goes near a rolling road for mapping, end of story!
30-04-2012, 07:47 AM
#51
Too many posts.. I need a life!!
Hi mate,
You're quite right nothing has changed. Rolling roads will always be a joke when it comes to giving any meaningfull power figure or being usefull for full load mapping! I personally would rather trust a map I had best guessed whilst sat drinking tea and watching the TV than a car actually mapped on a rolling road!
Rolling roads are great for diagnostic work and basic things like light load mapping, but totally hopeless for any form of flat out mapping!
Oh I forgot to add, Rolling road figures are great pub talk! Sadly the bullsh!t stops when the car hits the tarmac, where times dont lie!!
You're quite right nothing has changed. Rolling roads will always be a joke when it comes to giving any meaningfull power figure or being usefull for full load mapping! I personally would rather trust a map I had best guessed whilst sat drinking tea and watching the TV than a car actually mapped on a rolling road!
Rolling roads are great for diagnostic work and basic things like light load mapping, but totally hopeless for any form of flat out mapping!
Oh I forgot to add, Rolling road figures are great pub talk! Sadly the bullsh!t stops when the car hits the tarmac, where times dont lie!!
some of what you say may be true
but we have mapped may cars on the dyno only
mk2 escort ? 9.7 for a start
a lot of it is down to the operator not the dyno
in this case operator and shit fan lol
Last edited by Gordon1; 30-04-2012 at 09:25 AM.
30-04-2012, 08:01 AM
#53
Too many posts.. I need a life!!
30-04-2012, 08:12 AM
#54
And no point having a fan that's nowhere near the car. And worse still, nowhere near the car and no form of directional ducting at all !.
Might as well not even be there.
Might as well not even be there.
30-04-2012, 08:20 AM
#56
Some great info from Karl and Tony
300BHP from essentially what sounds like a YB with no working intercooler seems like a good result in some ways!
Fair play to the chip if your engine is still in one piece after that sort of abuse, I'd be more worried about the engine not getting killed than what power it makes once you are talking ACTs of over 60.
300BHP from essentially what sounds like a YB with no working intercooler seems like a good result in some ways!
Fair play to the chip if your engine is still in one piece after that sort of abuse, I'd be more worried about the engine not getting killed than what power it makes once you are talking ACTs of over 60.
30-04-2012, 08:26 AM
#57
Some great info from Karl and Tony
300BHP from essentially what sounds like a YB with no working intercooler seems like a good result in some ways!
Fair play to the chip if your engine is still in one piece after that sort of abuse, I'd be more worried about the engine not getting killed than what power it makes once you are talking ACTs of over 60.
300BHP from essentially what sounds like a YB with no working intercooler seems like a good result in some ways!
Fair play to the chip if your engine is still in one piece after that sort of abuse, I'd be more worried about the engine not getting killed than what power it makes once you are talking ACTs of over 60.
30-04-2012, 08:28 AM
#58
James,
I personally would refer to transient conditions as mapping, BUT from the perspective of the average petrol head reading this site, most understand mapping to mean adjusting the more basic (and ultimately more important when it comes to reliability) functions such as major fuel/ignition/boost tables, and it is these functions that no OE manufacturer calibrates on a rolling road.
Don't forget also, that many transient strategies are not visable to the aftermarket mapper and are only alterable by the OE manufacturer or OE ecu manufacturer.
In any case we are making trivial points, yes OE manufacturers use rolling roads in sealed environments to monitor emissions and evaporative losses, but they don't use rolling roads for full load mapping, which was the actual point I was getting at!
I personally would refer to transient conditions as mapping, BUT from the perspective of the average petrol head reading this site, most understand mapping to mean adjusting the more basic (and ultimately more important when it comes to reliability) functions such as major fuel/ignition/boost tables, and it is these functions that no OE manufacturer calibrates on a rolling road.
Don't forget also, that many transient strategies are not visable to the aftermarket mapper and are only alterable by the OE manufacturer or OE ecu manufacturer.
In any case we are making trivial points, yes OE manufacturers use rolling roads in sealed environments to monitor emissions and evaporative losses, but they don't use rolling roads for full load mapping, which was the actual point I was getting at!
30-04-2012, 08:32 AM
#59
Jay, for the flat out mapping they will be using a dyno not a set of rollers as then they can control all the different temperatures, including both oil and water individually as well as the air temps.
You're not thinking about it in the way that engines are actually developed, you are thinking about aftermarket mapping to a car that already exists, different ballgame.
You're not thinking about it in the way that engines are actually developed, you are thinking about aftermarket mapping to a car that already exists, different ballgame.
30-04-2012, 08:46 AM
#60
Jay, for the flat out mapping they will be using a dyno not a set of rollers as then they can control all the different temperatures, including both oil and water individually as well as the air temps.
You're not thinking about it in the way that engines are actually developed, you are thinking about aftermarket mapping to a car that already exists, different ballgame.
You're not thinking about it in the way that engines are actually developed, you are thinking about aftermarket mapping to a car that already exists, different ballgame.
yes as most do use dynos ! and no i wasnt thinking of just aftermarket i was thinking how does karl map a l8 with big power trying to locate what site has knock when it all move very quickly across the table ! This will be why i asked call karl how he does and will await his reply
30-04-2012, 08:59 AM
#61
It isnt that difficult, you see either by eye/ear or with logging where knock has occurred. You know the cells you have just passed through and can easily see any anomalies.
Of course experience and knowledge is more important than any dyno.
And a dyno is all good and well. But what's the point in dynoing an engine unless it is exactly as a fully installed package as it will be in the car ?
Having total control over air, oil, water temps on a dyno is great....but if it's totally different in car, seems a waste of time ? Unless just for getting an initial base map or for running an engine in.
The engine must be tuned as it will work in the car. The OEM will do this, very few aftermarket tuners will do it. So a dyno is just a starting point.
Unless of course they install it as it will be in the car. Same cooling system, fuel system, full intake/exhaust and a climate controlled cell so they can replicate the environment that will be seen when on the road.
Proper rolling road is getting closer, and road/track tuning the ultimate final measure as it is real.
Of course experience and knowledge is more important than any dyno.
And a dyno is all good and well. But what's the point in dynoing an engine unless it is exactly as a fully installed package as it will be in the car ?
Having total control over air, oil, water temps on a dyno is great....but if it's totally different in car, seems a waste of time ? Unless just for getting an initial base map or for running an engine in.
The engine must be tuned as it will work in the car. The OEM will do this, very few aftermarket tuners will do it. So a dyno is just a starting point.
Unless of course they install it as it will be in the car. Same cooling system, fuel system, full intake/exhaust and a climate controlled cell so they can replicate the environment that will be seen when on the road.
Proper rolling road is getting closer, and road/track tuning the ultimate final measure as it is real.
30-04-2012, 09:00 AM
#62
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30-04-2012, 09:18 AM
#63
And a dyno is all good and well. But what's the point in dynoing an engine unless it is exactly as a fully installed package as it will be in the car ?
Having total control over air, oil, water temps on a dyno is great....but if it's totally different in car, seems a waste of time ? Unless just for getting an initial base map or for running an engine in.
The engine must be tuned as it will work in the car. The OEM will do this, very few aftermarket tuners will do it. So a dyno is just a starting point.
Unless of course they install it as it will be in the car. Same cooling system, fuel system, full intake/exhaust and a climate controlled cell so they can replicate the environment that will be seen when on the road.
Proper rolling road is getting closer, and road/track tuning the ultimate final measure as it is real.
Having total control over air, oil, water temps on a dyno is great....but if it's totally different in car, seems a waste of time ? Unless just for getting an initial base map or for running an engine in.
The engine must be tuned as it will work in the car. The OEM will do this, very few aftermarket tuners will do it. So a dyno is just a starting point.
Unless of course they install it as it will be in the car. Same cooling system, fuel system, full intake/exhaust and a climate controlled cell so they can replicate the environment that will be seen when on the road.
Proper rolling road is getting closer, and road/track tuning the ultimate final measure as it is real.
If you are road mapping then unless you pick the hottest day of the year to map on how are you ever going to map it for when that day occurs?
On a proper dyno you can simulate any road conditions you want.
As an extreme example the F1 teams actually simulate every throttle angle they predict will happen for the upcoming races that engine has to last for, as they have datalogs from the same track last year, so they can dyno the engine specifically for exactly what it will see in terms of all temperatures and even all load conditions.
30-04-2012, 09:19 AM
#64
I just had a phonecall with MSD and they have confirmed these results are when the ACT are very high. They have also seen the graph and movie.
With such high ACT their strategy will drop boost down rapidly and ignition retards. And more is adjusted by the ECU pretecting the engine for destroing itself.
So many thanks for MSD for their good service and excellent chip!
And also many thanks for all of you who have seriously taken the time to give me some answers I needed.
With such high ACT their strategy will drop boost down rapidly and ignition retards. And more is adjusted by the ECU pretecting the engine for destroing itself.
So many thanks for MSD for their good service and excellent chip!
And also many thanks for all of you who have seriously taken the time to give me some answers I needed.
30-04-2012, 09:24 AM
#65
Too many posts.. I need a life!!
30-04-2012, 09:50 AM
#67
10K+ Poster!!
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it was 100 % mapped on a dyno and i have had it checked by one of the best in the business upto 150 mph on the black stuff and the map needed no alteration whatsoever, it would only need checking for a 6th gear pull if at brunters going for 200 mph, i dont know if tdi would do a pull on the dyno upto 200+mph i havnt asked them.
so imo, no in my experience a dyno can be used for safely tuning a car upto 150 mph anyways.
imo the beauty of a hub dyno is that theres no slip issue, dirrectly bolted to the machine and resistance applied that will mimick the resistance of wind, rototest is regarded as one of the best dyno out there and id have to agree.
30-04-2012, 09:55 AM
#68
I think you are missing what "total control of" actually means in that context, it doesnt just mean controlling oil and water temps to make sure they are healthy, it means giving you the ability to push both as far as they will ever see in the real world.
If you are road mapping then unless you pick the hottest day of the year to map on how are you ever going to map it for when that day occurs?
On a proper dyno you can simulate any road conditions you want.
As an extreme example the F1 teams actually simulate every throttle angle they predict will happen for the upcoming races that engine has to last for, as they have datalogs from the same track last year, so they can dyno the engine specifically for exactly what it will see in terms of all temperatures and even all load conditions.
If you are road mapping then unless you pick the hottest day of the year to map on how are you ever going to map it for when that day occurs?
On a proper dyno you can simulate any road conditions you want.
As an extreme example the F1 teams actually simulate every throttle angle they predict will happen for the upcoming races that engine has to last for, as they have datalogs from the same track last year, so they can dyno the engine specifically for exactly what it will see in terms of all temperatures and even all load conditions.
That's exactly what I said though. Who here is ever going to dyno an engine, exactly as fully installed and who also has a climate controlled dyno cell to test in to mimic different weather condiitons, as well as the hundreds of hours to do so ?
They will dyno under a very small number of conditions only, as cost to do a full test would be huge. F1 etc have almost unlimited budget, and they do dyno each and every race as it would happen multiple times.
And most normal dyno operators working to a normal persons budget wont be dynoing as it will be installed in the vehicle with identical fuel system, cooling, wiring, intake/exhaust etc.
Some may, but I suspect most wont again due to cost constraints.
Ive even heard of some operators dynoing the engines on a totally different ecu as well.. Yes it will prove the mechanical engine runs under one set of circumstances, but almost seems a very expensive option doing that as it will be nothing like the real world conditions it sees.
Each option does have it's place though
30-04-2012, 05:48 PM
#70
Testing the future
what other metrics are you using to judge it apart from that single temperature measurement?
30-04-2012, 06:15 PM
#72
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30-04-2012, 06:28 PM
#74
PassionFord Post Whore!!
The dyno I use has a pretty good fan just about enough for when I map cars there,
On a single power run I find only 3c diff than when we do the same run on the road,
And when we hold any load point at high boost for mapping we dont get any high temp problems,
All cars are then also checked on the road after to be sure its right.
Mark
On a single power run I find only 3c diff than when we do the same run on the road,
And when we hold any load point at high boost for mapping we dont get any high temp problems,
All cars are then also checked on the road after to be sure its right.
Mark
30-04-2012, 06:44 PM
#75
The dyno I use has a pretty good fan just about enough for when I map cars there,
On a single power run I find only 3c diff than when we do the same run on the road,
And when we hold any load point at high boost for mapping we dont get any high temp problems,
All cars are then also checked on the road after to be sure its right.
Mark
On a single power run I find only 3c diff than when we do the same run on the road,
And when we hold any load point at high boost for mapping we dont get any high temp problems,
All cars are then also checked on the road after to be sure its right.
Mark
.Wim,
The standard 4x4 intercooler is designed for 220bhp, so asking nearly twice that out of it and expecting it to perform is a bit daft
.You really need to invest in a better intercooler, because on high ambient days, the ECU will be doing the same as on the rollers
.
30-04-2012, 06:58 PM
#76
Zee Germans are coming
30-04-2012, 07:04 PM
#77
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30-04-2012, 07:09 PM
#78
30-04-2012, 07:16 PM
#79
Forgot to say that the best fans I have seen were the ones at AVA, unfortunately the pics are at work and this is the only one I have at home:
Took two people holding on to the bonnet to stop it from blowing back onto the screen and you could lean into the flow and the flow woul support you (like high winds on a ferry).
If memory serves me correctly, it was 25Kw (although only managing 18Kw on the day due to power supply issues) and even that had issues cooling my car, where it made 320bhp @ the wheels at 1.2 bar with 40 deg ACTs (a rare 30 deg ambient Scottish day LOL) and then only 395bhp @ the wheels @ 2.2 bar (with the water injection running flat out and the charge temps still in the 50s).
Took two people holding on to the bonnet to stop it from blowing back onto the screen and you could lean into the flow and the flow woul support you (like high winds on a ferry).
If memory serves me correctly, it was 25Kw (although only managing 18Kw on the day due to power supply issues) and even that had issues cooling my car, where it made 320bhp @ the wheels at 1.2 bar with 40 deg ACTs (a rare 30 deg ambient Scottish day LOL) and then only 395bhp @ the wheels @ 2.2 bar (with the water injection running flat out and the charge temps still in the 50s).
30-04-2012, 07:20 PM
#80
Wim,
The standard 4x4 intercooler is designed for 220bhp, so asking nearly twice that out of it and expecting it to perform is a bit daft.
You really need to invest in a better intercooler, because on high ambient days, the ECU will be doing the same as on the rollers.
The standard 4x4 intercooler is designed for 220bhp, so asking nearly twice that out of it and expecting it to perform is a bit daft
.You really need to invest in a better intercooler, because on high ambient days, the ECU will be doing the same as on the rollers
.Sure I do understand that at high ambient days the efficiency can get very poor when asking almost twice the power from a standard 4x4 intercooler.
I dont use the car for track sessions, only a few times in the summer months just for having a cruise.
And I dont expect a standard intercooler to cope with circuit days. But thanks for your advice.
Last edited by YBJ; 30-04-2012 at 07:28 PM.