ajamesc

i thought they had at the most about 560 - 580 some claims of 680 lol are a bit over the top i think

It's Czech Mate

Modded turbos sounds right

307kp says to me a bit more than 540bhp.

DJ was clocked at 307kph (190+mph) as was Rouse etc down Conrod straight. Rouse was known to use the modded turbos too.

Porkie

iTrader: (1)

ER???

I think you owe ME an apology!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

and you should do YOUR homework

You said THIS

You really really believe that still? we know roughly what size turbos they were using! 680bhp... 2bar?

Also I never got nasty! so dunno why you needed all that 'wind you neck in SHITE!!!

I said sounds like bullshit! and I still think it is!

So do the experts on here!!!! and people that were involved with them!

So. DO I GET AN APOLOGY FROM YOU?


All Cossie power figures get exagerated... like the cossy that your dads mates dog sisters next door neighbour owned that had 700bhp... on a t34 and greens!

to genuine racecars....


As Jim said. That car had a 5 at the front. not 680bhp!

Porkie

iTrader: (1)

Agar is the expert

old nick

absolutely spot on

rog

iTrader: (2)

Did he tell you about him undersealing his Vulva S40, or did he keep that one to himself? I shall speak to him next time I'm home (if he doesnt see this first), didnt realise he knew so much about these!

Porkie

iTrader: (1)

No caps in my ass

rog

iTrader: (2)

Love these heated discussions, the truth is until someone actually posts the KNOWN spec of the car with proof, we can speculate all we like. I've seen the vids that Rich talked about, why would they make outrageous power claims when they didnt have to, they were already faster than everyone else anyway?
I'm not saying the power was 680 bhp, but why would they claim that?

It's Czech Mate

That 2 bar must be on a turbo from a ship

Porkie

iTrader: (1)

WIND YOUR NECK IN!!!!!!!!!!!!

NoRubNoDub

well look on the bright side, it did take over 5 pages for this to start to get bitch pf style.

A big improvement imo

JonnyBravo

I think it's safe to assume "old nick" will know a fair bit on the subject of the engines they ran

My car ran what I would imagine was the typical btcc spec engine and that was a claimed 565hp on zytek management, was a Robin Hooker engine originally if you know much about him nick ?

To be fair though without knowing facts 680hp is a lot of hp from a t4 yb! As I said I'm sure it could make a good thread if people in the know post facts rather than assumptions.

I can get the dyno printout for mine which would give some indication of how the engines made their power back in atleast 1992

JonnyBravo

Turns out the engine that was used in mine was from Stuart Donnans Rs500 touring car, I've got the dyno printouts being sent to me so I'll add them to the btcc engine thread that hopefully someone will start

rog

iTrader: (2)

Is it the exact spec engine unchanged from it's original form, same ancillaries (turbo/ecu/etc), same fuel and on and on, may aswell ask now before we get going....

JonnyBravo

They are the printouts from back then, btcc spec, still on zytec. I didnt buy the car with the original engine but I know Paul who raced it had mentioned he had the dyno printout for it still.

Porkie

iTrader: (1)

TUV approved Dyno sheets I hope

Porkie

iTrader: (1)

Especially at 2bar....

turnover

just a quick question what fuel did they run back in the day ?

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Yes I think thanks to your "at 2 bar" get out of jail free card you are ok unless someone has a video of DJ saying "we got 680bhp out of them at 2 bar"

Mike Rainbird

iTrader: (3)

It's natural that the manufacturer of the car is going to perpetuate the myths of the power figures bandied about. Back in the day, it was a regular feature for the figures to be massaged as a way of 1-upmanship and to play with the minds of the other teams that could only get just over 500bhp out of these engines LOL.

As a typical example of this, Martin Schanche used to claim 700bhp out of his RS200 rally-cross cars and Harvey liaised closely with him to build up the RS200 Evo of Davy Jones to this spec, using the exact same cams and turbo etc as Schanche said would achieve 700bhp. When on the (TUV approved ) dyno, it was only mid 500s . When Harvey then quizzed him about it, he admitted that the figures bandied about was for the sake of the sponsors / artistic licence etc and the real power figure was what he was seeing on the dyno.

Harvey was really pissed off, as he had to start from scratch and totally redesign the cams / turbo / porting etc to eventually 700bhp . He was not a happy bunny .

A T4 compressor wheel only flows 48lb of air at 2.2 bar, it doesn't take anyone with half a brain to work out what the limit of this would be (even on race fuel on a 2.0 litre engine) - even with very high compression.....

ARERSC0489

power, power, power! it's true, the Cosworth boys just can't get enough!

who knows what these RS500 engines were pumping out when they were defending their title.

personally I also admire some of the unique engineering on these 'Group A' cars; checked out DJR's huge organic-shaped kevlar turbo intake duct? or the mysterious selection of levers, switches and dials in the cockpit?

born to run these cars and clearly still grabbing all the attention today!

JonnyBravo

Lol, Im not sure I can guarantee that !

JonnyBravo

So JG's dyno is nearly several hundred hp out then ?

Porkie

iTrader: (1)

I would say to DJ....

'You are a driving god. You are super cool... and the shades were class...'

but 'chinny reckon' on the power mate...

v man

he may need to change them time to time but he still uses them
and with good results too

if they wouldnt work he wouldnt use them

It's Czech Mate

Apmsl @chinny reckon

Where's Pon when you need him

Porkie

iTrader: (1)

Agar.... woooohoooo??!?!?!

You there?

I have a for you.....

Cossie Sean

Sierra Sapphire was from 270-285 depending on setups etc

oh, and no turbo, 2.0l and ITB`s

or is that purely an RS500 only debate

bigchez

genuine LOL! skills!

As per Porkie/Jimbo/Mike - even if cut and shut, a T4 with standard wheels inside will only flow a finite amount of air, and as such without nitrous there's a physical limit as to how much power can be produced regardless and I'd imagine this will start with a 5.

Regardless, this is a quality find and the best PF thread for a while.

AGAR-COSWORTH

I'm still here

I don't understand how a reply from someone that said "UTTER bullshit" couldn't be interpreted as being nasty? If I said that to you, you wouldn't be offended at all? . I don't know you, nor am I looking to pick a fight - but your intial reply was pretty rude I thought. Why couldn't you have said "I don't think thats correct, you'll find your are incorrect because of x, y & z etc etc", and then we could have discussed it more, rather than you turning to profanities at the very first opportunity?

I posted my information on the basis of that video that was linked to, numerous hours of Bathurst and ATCC footage I have watched over the years, and in-depth information online. I think its obvious that there isn't going to be a simple answer to the bhp debate, due to what Dick claimed in that video being at odds with other information posted here and on the net.

Anyway, this will be my last post on the BHP subject, as I don't want to see a good thread on here turn to crap. I'm very interested in the DJR cars and posted my original reply because of my great fondness for them. If I am proved wrong then so be it - I will happily admit it.

In the meantime I'm genuinely interested to find out more about the engine specs as it appears there are numerous versions of what power they were running.

Rsmat

iTrader: (2)

I don't think they was any nastiness in Lee's post...!... In laymans terms
He asked... Who did/ where did you hear that....!.. And where/ who told you that as it sounds like bullshit.... NOT YOUR FULL OF SHiT..! So let's get back on topic as this is a great find/discussion.

It's Czech Mate

Do we know there was no secret nitrous? Hidden in the cage?

Cossie Sean

Lancia used to hide it in fire extinguishers, hence the ban from rallying

AGAR-COSWORTH

Maybe Mat - I suppose you could have read what he said a number of ways. I took it one way (i.e. UTTER bullshit = your full of shit), someone else could have read it completely differently, and perhaps more light-heartedly. I guess that's sometimes the problem with replies on internet forums, you can never tell what "tone" the person is replying with.

Anyway, I agree with you, lets get back on topic

This will definitely be my last post on this thread (honest ) as I really don't want me or anyone else to spoil it.

rog

iTrader: (2)

Still waiting for the graphs.....
BTW all this talk of "it can flow this much air" and so on, give it to us straight, to me that's like saying "it's 2000cc so it can't be more powerful than X" or is there a reason that no one is willing to put an equivalent hp figure to it?

Jay,

iTrader: (4)

Andy Rouse in later years often claimed really high 500's bhp with a very highly modded t4 so who knows what he did to the turbo ? it could of just been a shell of a t4 and the internals could of been massively different

Chris Hoggetts car (brooklyns car) after the new owner got hold of it we put it on a dyno and it struggled to do 440bhp ! it was deffinately a touring car engine but couldnt say for sure in the 14 years it was sat in show rooms ect that it hadnt had turbo changed ect

steveboyslim

What I do not understand with this story Mike is that the engine gave 580 bhp when they left Brian Harts to be fitted in the cars at Spooners.
Also the previous owner of Davids car was competitive in his class at the Brighton Speed trials before Harvey's and Armed's input and the car held the 0-100 world record for a road car many years.
That engine was tested on the same dyno that many of the RS500 touring car engines wre also tested on.
The Smaller 1800cc engine with a long stroke conversion to 1952cc will make 550bhp-580bhp depending on who's dyno being used.
I do agree about an element of artistic licence with the rallycross power outputs

Steve

Stu @ M Developments

iTrader: (12)

I personally cant imagine any modification to a T4, using 80s technology and knowledge would have released over 5XX bhp from a YB using T4 housings.

There is also the reliability aspect, regardless of who you know running 600, 700, 800 bhp etc nowadays, I assure you that virtually none of them could compete at a place like Bathurst in a race series and remain reliable enough to be competetive. Reliability requires compromise, largely because of thermal management requirements. Not a problem today as we can control EGT and CT using the ECU and totally automate it, but these boys didnt have that luxury.

I suspect its just artistic license, as lets face it, you only need to tell 1 person you have 540 bhp, and by the time they have told the third person its become 640, and thats today, in 2012. LOL

mk1trb

heres the bit your on about i think

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j6fnrP92YOg

Mike Rainbird

iTrader: (3)

If memory serves me correctly, it had only 480ish bhp when it arrived at Harveys (no idea why, but it was perfectly healthy, this was just what it was set up and mapped to at the time). However, due to the short gearing (140ish flat out at 9000rpm in fifth) was why it accelerated so quickly (I was lucky enough to experience this first hand, where it would do 0-140 TWICE between the two roundabouts ).

I can only tell you the output of the engine when specced to Schanche's "700bhp" spec . From what I can remember, the parts weren't really matched properly, so the sum total was significantly less than expected. It took hours of dyno work and experimentation and a custom turbo from the States to achieve 702bhp. I can remember how gutted Harvey was, as DJ had insisted that the power figure start with a 7 and he had to start all over again to achieve this (at huge expense, so was well pissed off for listening to the bullshit figures from the late 80s / early 90s ). Unfortunately I never got to go out in the car when it was finished, but it was one of the few cars that made Harvey's hands shake and it would apparently light up all four wheels in every gear (hence why Clarkson ended up in a field with it) . But I did see it go, and Harvey commented that you had to drive it with one hand on the gear-lever, because if you removed it, you'd never get it back on due to the acceleration forces (unless you came off the throttle) .