Cost and Parts for a genuine 500bhp cossie engine???
18-02-2005, 01:52 PM
#82
Porkie, unfortunately im moving house so i cant come.
Clare has been nagging me to go along as well but its just not an option, if you'll let me take a raincheck on that though ill certainly take you up on it the next show instead.
Clare has been nagging me to go along as well but its just not an option, if you'll let me take a raincheck on that though ill certainly take you up on it the next show instead.
18-02-2005, 01:56 PM
#84
Originally Posted by Porkie
Mike is SOOOOOOOOOOOOO on the phone to Harvey right now!!!!! 
At the end of the day, im not saying 8 injectors is wrong, thankfully the sort of failure that Doug had is uncommon.
Im merely saying that in my opinon, paying more money just to have twice as many potential points of failure plus an increased chance of not noticing seems like a bad idea.
However a properly installed and maintained 8 injector setup should be perfectly reliable in all but a very occasional case (dougs here for example), and like bosch_man says the actual injectors themselves (greens) are awesomely reliable.
Obviously if rainbird has a different view thats fine, but he doesnt seem to be explaining very well what he thinks the advantages are, he just seems to be playing down the disadvantages, its kind of like wathcing a politician on a "damage limitation exercise" at the moment.
18-02-2005, 02:18 PM
#87
Actually Chip I disagree with you 100%. The only scenario where having 4 injectors over 8 would be a saving grace would be if the failure to an injector happened whilst the engine was coming on boost and even then it would ONLY be a problem for the 8 injector set up if it was an injector that failed in the second rail (as you wouldn't notice that until too late 
). This is because an 8 injector set up runs on 4 up to a certain boost level anyway, so below that you would notice a problem.
However, if you had an injector fail on either set up while on a high speed run, the heat build up that was already there would destroy the engine if the cooling effect of the fuel was removed in a catastrophic injector failure, be it completely (4 injector) or partially (8 injector).
As to why I am an advocate of 8 injectors, for the same reasons Phil states earlier. He is almost quoting verbatum what I have heard Ahmed saying (so he must have been phoning Harvey / Ahmed as well ) 
.
). This is because an 8 injector set up runs on 4 up to a certain boost level anyway, so below that you would notice a problem.However, if you had an injector fail on either set up while on a high speed run, the heat build up that was already there would destroy the engine if the cooling effect of the fuel was removed in a catastrophic injector failure, be it completely (4 injector) or partially (8 injector)
.As to why I am an advocate of 8 injectors, for the same reasons Phil states earlier. He is almost quoting verbatum what I have heard Ahmed saying (so he must have been phoning Harvey / Ahmed as well
) .
18-02-2005, 02:28 PM
#88
Norris Motorsport
Im sorry Mike but I disagree!!!
Your argument would mean that everytime you lifted off the throttle after a high speed run your engine would melt unless there was over run fuel! In reality very few cars have over run fueling activated much above 2000rpm, so why don't they all melt when you lift off after heavy load??
Your argument would mean that everytime you lifted off the throttle after a high speed run your engine would melt unless there was over run fuel! In reality very few cars have over run fueling activated much above 2000rpm, so why don't they all melt when you lift off after heavy load??
18-02-2005, 02:28 PM
#89
Mike, you arent disagreeing with me 100% at all, i agree with most of what you are saying.
failure at low boost is identical - YEP i agree
failure at high speed is identical - Kind of - still an issue but your chance of surviving it on four is higher, especially if its total failure, like Karl says no fuel is actually common at high speeds and is perfectly safe
Im not saying that 8 injectors is MUCH more likely to lead to a failure, simply that is it more likely, so why pay all the extra money just for a slightly higher risk of failure?
If you still think that makes me "THAT stupid" then you are welcome to your opinion, but there are certainly a hell of a lot of well respected cars that follow the same though prosses as me, like Rods, The norris design evo, and just about every other car really, multi injector setups arent used on those cars, and im positive that cost isnt an issue to them.
failure at low boost is identical - YEP i agree
failure at high speed is identical - Kind of - still an issue but your chance of surviving it on four is higher, especially if its total failure, like Karl says no fuel is actually common at high speeds and is perfectly safe
Im not saying that 8 injectors is MUCH more likely to lead to a failure, simply that is it more likely, so why pay all the extra money just for a slightly higher risk of failure?
If you still think that makes me "THAT stupid" then you are welcome to your opinion, but there are certainly a hell of a lot of well respected cars that follow the same though prosses as me, like Rods, The norris design evo, and just about every other car really, multi injector setups arent used on those cars, and im positive that cost isnt an issue to them.
18-02-2005, 02:42 PM
#90
Karl,
We'll agree to disagree on that one then. I've seen the results of engine's failing due to fuel pumps packing up or single injectors failing (on four-injector set-ups). It's not pretty .
Chip,
I think you will find that where people have an economical choice of running eight injectors they choose to do so (there are even 8-injector set ups for Scoobies etc). However, where packaging and the requirement of hugely expensive custom parts prohibit this, then people have no choice but to go with four.
This is my preferred choice, it's up to you lot what you want to go for (cheap-skates ).
We'll agree to disagree on that one then
. I've seen the results of engine's failing due to fuel pumps packing up or single injectors failing (on four-injector set-ups). It's not pretty .Chip,
I think you will find that where people have an economical choice of running eight injectors they choose to do so (there are even 8-injector set ups for Scoobies etc). However, where packaging and the requirement of hugely expensive custom parts prohibit this, then people have no choice but to go with four.
This is my preferred choice, it's up to you lot what you want to go for
(cheap-skates ).
18-02-2005, 03:12 PM
#97
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yer but how about running TWO FUEL PUMPS!!
this has the same effect,
my old rs500 spec had
eight injectors and TWO fuel pumps.
so twice the chance of sudden low fuel and bang goes the engine,
lucky for me this is still rare and i had no problems at all,
the new set up will be eight injectors O DEAR!
AND FOUR FUEL PUMPS O DEAR O DEAR
still its all good fun,
is it imas time to tell us we should all be useing one massive fuel pump!
this has the same effect,
my old rs500 spec had
eight injectors and TWO fuel pumps.
so twice the chance of sudden low fuel and bang goes the engine,
lucky for me this is still rare and i had no problems at all,
the new set up will be eight injectors O DEAR!
AND FOUR FUEL PUMPS O DEAR O DEAR
still its all good fun,
is it imas time to tell us we should all be useing one massive fuel pump!
18-02-2005, 03:15 PM
#99
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Originally Posted by martinrs500labatts
is it imas time to tell us we should all be useing one massive fuel pump!
easily big enough. The simplest solution to a problem is normally the best way
18-02-2005, 03:28 PM
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Originally Posted by ImaRacing 700
I will only be using one fuel pump!!!!!...But 8 injectors WRC side by side style with a Swedish Plenum. 
18-02-2005, 03:42 PM
#108
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Originally Posted by ImaRacing 700
Doug and dont you forget to connect all the injector plugs.
The injector clip in question was missing it's little nylon spacer thing (a see through flexable washer)....The clip as actually ON the injector, but not a proper tight fit without that washer
18-02-2005, 03:55 PM
#110
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Originally Posted by Stu @ M Developments
Its the moisture seal Doug.
That moisture seal is the ONLY thing that we could identify as the likely cause of the damage..........I took all 8 injectors to a place with an Asnew tester/cleaner, they ALL flowed very close figures, and all were clean, with a nice even spray.....so not cloged up at all
18-02-2005, 05:14 PM
#111
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Interesting reading
So what benefits do the swedish style plenums give over an EECIV plenum,if any?
Do some of you not like T4's due to the lag,or is there other reasons?
So what benefits do the swedish style plenums give over an EECIV plenum,if any?
Do some of you not like T4's due to the lag,or is there other reasons?
18-02-2005, 05:29 PM
#113
mike you seam to quote top dollar for all your parts in this equation , where in realitly nearly everyone can get some sort of discount from somewhere or by using differant suppliers and yes i can read hence my comments , and you also seam to be in the dark ages for this '500' horse setup that the author actually asked for in his post
i know how much it costs , im not going to say how much i 'could' build one for or how much i 'would' build one for , but one thing is for sure it wouldnt entail alot of the parts youve listed my frieind
and as for the 8 injector setup, looks cool very dangerous
i too have seen the aftermath of one pump failure too , wasnt nice, if it was on 4 inj system the driver would have felt 'something' wrong and backed off the guys looses 25% of his fuelling on a four injector setup ( wireing/inj failure) or the guy that looses 12.5% of his fuelling , who is going to notice theres a problem first ???
oh and ..............................................
and yes i can read hence my comments , and you also seam to be in the dark ages for this '500' horse setup that the author actually asked for in his post i know how much it costs , im not going to say how much i 'could' build one for or how much i 'would' build one for , but one thing is for sure it wouldnt entail alot of the parts youve listed my frieind
and as for the 8 injector setup, looks cool very dangerous
i too have seen the aftermath of one pump failure too , wasnt nice, if it was on 4 inj system the driver would have felt 'something' wrong and backed off the guys looses 25% of his fuelling on a four injector setup ( wireing/inj failure) or the guy that looses 12.5% of his fuelling , who is going to notice theres a problem first ???
oh and ..............................................
18-02-2005, 08:52 PM
#114
The best solution with regards to pumps is to run two pumps in parellel each of which with more capacity for flow than the system needs, then if either fails its still fine.
Thats kind of what ive got on my integra as lift pumps, two facet redtops, each of which is capable of flowing enough for what i need both feeding into a common swirl pot, so if either fail half way round a track session then the car is still fine but then on the output side i only have a single 044 pump where really i could have two in parrellel if i wanted to be totally over the top but seeing as its only 24" from my head, ill soon know if the bastard thing stops making a racket anyway, lol.
Thats kind of what ive got on my integra as lift pumps, two facet redtops, each of which is capable of flowing enough for what i need both feeding into a common swirl pot, so if either fail half way round a track session then the car is still fine but then on the output side i only have a single 044 pump where really i could have two in parrellel if i wanted to be totally over the top but seeing as its only 24" from my head, ill soon know if the bastard thing stops making a racket anyway, lol.
18-02-2005, 09:07 PM
#117
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I prefer 4 injectors, single pump set up personnally for the simplicity and the reduced risk of molten pistons!
If your pump fails your car stops. If an injector fails, you have a misfire. Simple
If your pump has degraded, you risk melting. If an injector clogs, you risk melting.
With 8 and 2 pumps then the risks are doubled IMO.
Also a moded 4x4 plenum cost about £60. A pretty crude way of increasing flow but it is increased flow none the less....
If your pump fails your car stops. If an injector fails, you have a misfire. Simple
If your pump has degraded, you risk melting. If an injector clogs, you risk melting.
With 8 and 2 pumps then the risks are doubled IMO.
Also a moded 4x4 plenum cost about £60. A pretty crude way of increasing flow but it is increased flow none the less....
18-02-2005, 09:11 PM
#118
Originally Posted by DazC
I prefer 4 injectors, single pump set up personnally for the simplicity and the reduced risk of molten pistons!
If your pump fails your car stops. If an injector fails, you have a misfire. Simple
If your pump has degraded, you risk melting. If an injector clogs, you risk melting.
With 8 and 2 pumps then the risks are doubled IMO.
Also a moded 4x4 plenum cost abour £60. A pretty crude way of increasing flow but it is increased flow none the less....
If your pump fails your car stops. If an injector fails, you have a misfire. Simple
If your pump has degraded, you risk melting. If an injector clogs, you risk melting.
With 8 and 2 pumps then the risks are doubled IMO.
Also a moded 4x4 plenum cost abour £60. A pretty crude way of increasing flow but it is increased flow none the less....
you know things have to be in multiples of £1000
18-02-2005, 09:17 PM
#119
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Multiples of 1k!? My Dad's car wouldn't be as fast as it is if they were in multiples of 1k!!
And yes! I admit it, I am a complete retard with no brain or common sense at all!
And yes! I admit it, I am a complete retard with no brain or common sense at all!