Been woundering for a while now why they insist on using a FR layout on their performance cars...

Got a Focus ST-2

and I don't know why they dont 4x4 especially the new RS

Is it just production costs?

 

development costs too high.

 

as you said its cost research development + manufacturing would probably add around 10k per car turning a 27k frs to 37k, and theres not the market for a near on 40k focus for the amount they would have to shift to turn a profit

 

Loads of reasons - primarily the fact that they can make fantastic handling FWD cars, so there's no point in adding both weight, and cost to make a car go slower and handle worse.

 

Ford havent used a FR layout on any performance car in the uk that I can think of since the RWD saph!

Its all FF these days, as thats what works well in terms of giving acceptable performance and costs trade offs.




Its for production costs, and for performance of the standard model, with the new RS having such a massive amount of front end grip, adding a couple more diffs and some extra driveshafts etc would just slow it down.

Different when tuned to 500bhp of course, but ford dont consider that side of things as no money in the tuning side of it after they are sold for them, in fact they would prefer it doesnt happen probably due to helping reliability and residuals etc if people dont modify them.

 

This. Wasn't the ff car faster than a 4wd development car on track?

 

Yes, but only with standard power.

Wind the power up, and 4wd starts to win, but ford wont care about that, it is just us lot that do, lol

 

RS2000 4x4 provided excellent handling, performance suffered greatly compared with the 2wd version due to the difference in power to weight ratio.
As far as it can be ascertained, production of the RS2000, the last to date RS badged car, was ceased in August 1996. It is believed the actual last RS2000 was built on 26th August 1996 and had the VIN GCABTD05434. The main reason Ford ceased production, much like the Escort Cosworth was due to the lack of sales they had expected along with a possible noise level problem. Could it have been Ford wanted the family/green image.
_________
Roller Blinds
Blinds

 

Changes to homologation regulations have probably had an impact too. If homologation hadn't required it, we probably wouldn't have had the Cosworth road cars either.

 

Ford did consider using the 4x4 setup from the Kuga for the FRS but it would have pushed the price up of the car, IIRC it was faster, but the FRS has it's sophisticated Revo-knuckle setup and has pushed the boundaries of FWD technology so it doesn't really need 4x4, again they did similar with the MK1 with a Qualife diff but it wasn't very well received.

Martin

 

That's not what the guy in charge of the Focus RS project said!

 

I believe the early critisism on the Mk1 FRS was due to different LSD's before everything was ironed out, sorted and finalised.

Not many Mk1 owners complain about them, but very early press reports were mixed due to that .

 

Indeed! Quaife went through a LOT of different diffs before settling on the right one. I had one of the left-over 'development' diffs on my Mondingo!

 

That is actualy the same Haldex system as found on 4x4 golfs, audi s3's, AWD volvo's, audi TT's and the like. IMO anything over 250 bhp doesnt work FWD, maybe in perfect conditions (dry road) its ok, but the majority of time that is not the case in britain, but thumbs up to ford for making another RS car all the same.

 

you mean "mandildo"

 

as they dont have to bother they sell enough normal cars as there not in the performace market to worry and they know all they have to do is slap an rs badge on the back and people will buy it even if its fwd

 

as people have said about cost etc. to do it properly youd need a dedicated 4wd system rather than a bodged parts bin effort and its just not worth it at the low power level of the focus these days. Couldnt possibly justify the expense. Im sure with enough development and clever trickery you could probably get it to drive as good as the FWD version but your looking at serious money, serious chassis redesign and probably engine retuning to get the power band suited to the new transmission system and chassis.

 

Not sure what you mean with that statement? the haldex system used on all the cars mentioned above is bullet proof, very strong and reliable and entirly electronically controllable, unlike the mt75 system used on the cosworths of old which is soft as shit and breaks with any real abuse, weighs a tonne and is not controllable in any way shape or form, but thats progress for you i suppose.

 

Having worked for ford for over 15 years theres one simple answer,money!!!

Always was and always will be with them.

Their mentality is keep it limping along at all costs,fix it again tomorrow(a well known acronym for our italian car making friends I know),why do today,what you can put off til tommorrow was another good one!!!

Ford will always buy the best,best people,best machinery,best paid workforce,the managers get company cars AND their wives as well but ford never maintain anything,we had a robot to do a particular function in work that saved x amount of man hours and so on but needed to be maintained at least once every 6 months with specialist equipment.
They did it once,bodged it along then when it broke,switched it off and paid someone Ł40-45k a year X3 shifts to do the same job!!!

Madness.

 

my mum's new husband works at Dunton he had a hand in building/ designing the new FRS4x4.

 

its still a bodged parts bin effort used in 4x4's, softroaders, saloon cars blah blah blah. Its not a dedicated custom designed 4wd set up purely designed for a 4wd performance car. Hence it will always be a compromise in its capabilities.

as you rightly say mt75 was a bodge job too. But this thread isnt about mt75.....

 

Have you driven a new RS yet?

Im guessing not from that comment, if you are used to wanky old RS Turbos etc as what a fwd car is capable of then you will understand literally nothing about how well the focus RS lays its power down, I was genuinely gobsmacked the first time I went in one and saw the ease with which it puts all the power down.

 

I tend to dissagree with your first statement, the haldex is a purpose built 4x4 unit, and it is custom designed to work as a 4x4 system, thats why audi, VW, seat, skoda, volvo and ford all use it. The gearbox does have FWD roots, but again has been modified to suit the 4wd needs, in the same way Evo gearboxes are. I think you will find nearly all manufacturers will use bearings, gears, shafts, selectors, baulk rings etc from "parts bins" in most of the things they make, for example VW/audi group will make one size piston/rod/big end bearing to suit a wide range of engines, beit a 3 cyl PD diesel, 4cyl PD diesel or V6 pd diesel, all the components are interchangeable, rockers, injectors nearly everything. This keeps costs down.
With regard to your comment about it being a "bodged 4x4 system", how do you suppose it should work?

 

I worked at Dunton until January when I left, and I can vouch for the first part of your paragraph - Ford do really invest in their people and make sure the working environment is good. Final salary pension and MR role cars every three months even when retired. It was a good place to work, but for me the salary wasn't competitive.

RE: Original topic - it was cost alone that dictated FWD, such a great shame.

 

No, but every fwd car ive driven in the wet wheel spins 1st, 2nd, 3rd and sometimes 4th and 5th, havent tried to golf in 2wd in 6th yet though lol

 

also chip dont they limit the power in lower gears?

 

You better tell Porsche, as they decided to switch over to Haldex for their current generation 4WD models, including the 0-60 in 3.5 seconds 997 Turbo.

Haldex enables very controlled Torque Vectoring, it's a very good system especially the Gen2 and 3 systems which allow 60% rear bias.

Hardly a bodge, it's a very elegant and efficient solution.

 

Can you name many 4wd cars that have a dedicated 4wd performance system?

The skyline for example uses a setup I believe is very similar to the nissan off roaders, and the subaru setup is the one out their old pickup trucks revisited.

The evo uses one that is totally compromised from a handling point of view because its been designed to increase cabin space by sitting transversely.


So I dont really have a problem with cars inheriting 4wd, it doesnt stop it working well if the right tweaks are made.


About the only setup I can think of that started life for purely performance reasons is the audi quattro one?

 

Rwd with a reactive transmission of power to the front is a very very different animal to fwd with a reactive transmission of power to the rear mate, so I think that is a piss poor example.

The problem with the VW haldex setup is that its mainly fwd, and porsche setup doesnt share that problem at all.

 

agreed, but when fully in, if the front wheels had zero traction the car would be rwd, done a lot of experimenting recenty with a haldex 4x4 converted mk2 golf, very intresting work.

 

Do the Audi RS4, RS6 and VW Passat use an older non haldex dedicated quattro system?

Not sure, but the RWD engine layout for FWD on these cars easily lends itself to AWD and may have been the reason they used that setup. (engine way up front).

 

The FWD set-up on the Focus RS is awesome, and is way way better than you'd expect. It's a bit foolish to make statements about how they handle until you've driven one.

 

Well then thanks for your informed input on the subject Vicky



When you drive one, you will realise how wrong you are, just like we all did when we all said the same sort of thing when it came out before we had been in them!

 

Yes

Totally different

 

If the front wheel had zero traction, you would have no steering, and that my friend is where the problem lies, the only time you get a significant amount of power at the rear is when the front wheels are actually spinning.

Works GREAT in a straight line, load of shite when coming out of a bend though!

 

these cars use the FWD box, modified for 4x4 use as far as im aware, so again a "bodge job" lol

 

I dont drive my cars in bed so i have no experience with that to comment on

 

point taken, i still think fwd cars are not the answer for very high power

 

ICBA with the whole pointless internet spelling war so consider yourself a winner by default if thats how you like to spend your day.
Although personally I think tha makes you a loser by default in the grander scheme of things.

 

good banter