massivewangers

iTrader: (1)

Are you offering any guarantees to the people testing for you? If there was a pump failure that resulted in engine meltdown, what would be your standpoint?

zetaboostboy522bhp

steel crank £1700+

dry sump system £1100 pace or titan
mine pace kit cost £850 for the full kit sold the pump for £370 and brought a drag racing pump from america for £900 including the pulley
pace told me that there pump was designed for the formula ford engine and they had no feed back on a turbo zetec which did not fill me with confidence , armstrong dry sumps however said that pumps like the titan and pace does not pull a internal vacuum thats needed on a high boosted engine and that his pumps are used on 1400bhp 2.0litre drag engines and are the finest quality , believe when turning the pumps over by hand the suction between the pace pump and the armstrong pump are light years apart, the only down side is i had to make a bracket to hold the pump and buy a different sized belt and alter the hose connections on the sump

cheers paul

RAT8OY

Silver top as far as my knowledge goes. I am more than happy to be proved wrong as any REAL life input on this is more than welcome.

Where there is a will there's a way!

RAT8OY

With the greatest of respect I don't understand where your coming from?

dug112y

iTrader: (1)

as it for a racing engine no warranty.if someone wants to test them its their choice but i would help them as much as i could .i have had these made for myself so have taken a lot of time and cut no corners as i wouldnt want them to fuck up in my engines. they have been tested for months but not in a high power turbo car.had no problems so far.

if you bought a dry sump kit and it broke would they pay for a new engine??
if you bought big valves and one dropped would the valve supplier buy you a new engine/head??

zetaboostboy522bhp

if i remember right its both blacktop and silvertop engines that why even on big valve heads you hardly never see any porting on the exhaust side and if there is it very minimal.thats why mine looks like standard i had to have a good luck to see if anything had actually been done lol.
not sure about the st170 head

dan it will be in the post by 5 tomoz and cheers

cheers paul

Big Will_

Just to give you a quick heads up, I looked into remanufacturing the billet geared pumps after I found out about 3 billet geared pumps (in the UK alone) that had failed.

I spent a LONG time and a LOT of money on non destructive testing and spoke with a lot of people who have considerably more knowledge than me (including some of my old F1 colleagues) and the conclusion was, in summary, "don't bother".

It is physically impossible to increase the amount of material in the recesses where the pump gear rotates. It's in these recesses that the stress raisers form and ultimately crack from.

I was close to £1000 in with all the research and development costs before I called it a day

RAT8OY

Hear hear!

You cannot polish a turd! Hench anybody who has tuned a zetec will tell you,...


DRY SUMP!

Big Will_

Yup. Annoyingly, that £1000 that I spent trying to create a solution for all of us (and didn't!) would have been over half the cost of a dry sump

As it is, i'm still on a billet geared pump myself for now. If I get a windfall and have the money, dry sump is my next step for sure.

dug112y

iTrader: (1)

thanks for the heads up mate...i've done similar to yourself also with good contacts but the end response was different because i was advised it was more the poor quality of mass manufactured sintered gears that were not up to the punishment they are taking from the crank that was the issue not their design. so i went ahead and got them done.
i take it the billet geared pumps you are talking about blacktops???with cfm gears

Big Will_

Yes mate. I know of 3 sets of CFM billet gears that have failed, 1 on a NASP car, the other 2 on forced induction cars.

I got hold of one set of broken billet gears, a broken standard, a new set of billet geared and a new standard and sent them all off for anaylsis/inspection.

The design comment was aimed at the billet geared ones as we knew from the outset that the sintered ones were shit

chaffe

interesting thread!

XRT_si

iTrader: (2)

Rob isn't one of them no

As Clarke said, Alex's Blacktop engine had a early low rev oil pump fail which was put down to shit pulleys. It went on to do 440bhp with no sign of problems and had a very hard life.

Crazycage has done 25k (MUCH more mileage than any other car here) peaking around 370bhp now and never had a problem.

I think it's fair to say Blacktops have a stronger oil pump.


I thought steel crank would be another way to combat it, but as stated it's not economically viable compared to a dry sump.

XRT_si

iTrader: (2)

Interesting there's been different findings on billet gears too.

Will; I know the designs are similar inside the pumps but would your findings be 100% comparable with Silvertops?

Luca

iTrader: (2)

I know Sazybk had a pump failure on billet gears too. Which is also why he went for the dry sump.

If you are pushing good strong power matched with high revs and thrashing the car constantly, then dry sump should be seriously considered.




With regards Paul changing pump design for a race spec item.

I know Titan have now released a new “gear” type pump, the TG2 which is an upgrade over the rotor style pump that is supplied standard with the kits.



Steel crank is something to think about when going for a 600+hp engine.
I really don’t see the need below that, the dry sump kit would be a better investment!

chaffe

This is the beauty of making performance parts, no one will offer warranty, so you pay a premium for them and then get no back up when it goes wrong, its win win for the supplier. And your left with no choice but to buy another as what other option is there?

massivewangers

iTrader: (1)

Without wishing to cause offence, that would seriously put me off. If I built an engine and offered to help you develop your kit, and that directly resulted in my expensive engine failing, I would expect at least some kind of help in rebuilding it.

It's an awful lot to risk, and could mean a large financial loss for those testing it for you. Especially for those wanting to build a turbocharged engine, the standard oil pump may work fine, and your upgrade which has had limited testing may directly cause failure. To expect the customer to cover the cost of that failure seems a bit extreme to me. If you can find people willing to risk that, then fair play though.

It is a shame that a solution can't be found, as the dry sump idea suddenly makes the Zetec turbo idea a very expensive proposition. However, it does seem that the black top is less susceptible to the failure than the silver top, and using standard pulleys and things does seem to help with that. Undoubtedly some risk involved, but I can see why people don't want to go down the dry sump route!

Big Will_

Exactly. However, I chose not to tarnish my reputation by supplying parts that would potentially lead to engine failures and warranty arguments etc.

chaffe

i always find a dry hump is better than a dry sump IME

AustenW

My personal view is that its down to harmonics and possibly crank flex at a certain RPM, I'm no expert but its what people have told me who do this for a living.

That is why all 1800 Formula Ford engines I have seen run a dry sump for reliability

My steel farndon crank is over 2kg heavier than standard to reduce flexing, I have hadd all the bottom end dynamically balanced and also run a dry sump system

If using the std set up get it properly balanced by someone like vibration free and fit a proper crank dampener pully like the TCI Rattler

Their about £350 from vibration free

http://www.vibrationfree.co.uk/Rattler.htm

AustenW

If your in the market to buy a dry sump pump get it from here:

http://www.aviaid.com/

They supply Motor Design in Sweden who do work for Ford WRC and Ford Rally Cross cars

http://www.motordesign.se/

Thats who I'm getting my new pump from for my Focus Rs 5 cyl engine

Sp3no

iTrader: (1)

Would billet main caps reduce flex?

XRT_si

iTrader: (2)

I'd imagine it's more crank flexing around caps as such.

XRT_si

iTrader: (2)

http://www.raceline.co.uk/products/p...2&CategoryID=2

Anyone seen/tried/used/heard of these? (the system not Raceline).

AustenW

Impossible to comment without measuring it with load sensors which I doubt anyone has done on this forum

AustenW

I've used Raceline for alot of stuff in the past, good guys

The link looks like a titan kit IMO

XRT_si

iTrader: (2)

I thought that looking at the sump.

Luca

iTrader: (2)

The image is indeed of a Titan

Rick

That engine has been through pure hell. The rev limit is 7300 and it has been there a LOT - pretty much the length of the pit straight at Donno! It's on WRC rods which are big heavy things not really designed to spin that quickly.

The black top with it's alloy crank case means it is more rigid than a siver top which will help in these applications.

Rick

chaffe

Black and silvertop both have cast iron blocks?

dug112y

iTrader: (1)

I think he means the alloy brace on bottom of the block mate

dug112y

iTrader: (1)

No offence taken but if you read my post again I said I would do all I could to help. But there is not enough money or volume in selling them to afford to pay a 5k+ engine warranty... Also if it did go there would be nothing to say that it wouldn't be down to bad engine balancing etc.your already taking a risk using STD gears. But I totally agree with what you are saying......they are very difficult to test because some STD pumps are fine so how would you know??

chaffe

a girdle? i just built a blacktop and it never had one?

SiZT

It's not a girdle, it's the lower crank case/windage tray. It bolts to the block and then the sump bolts to it

mattseries2

iTrader: (1)

Bit worried now as im going ZT.
But no one makes a dry sump setup that bolts straight onto a FWD Zetec.
How have people got round this?
What do i need to buy? What kit? What extras?
How much work is it?

Dlatch!

interesting thread

robp-tt

iTrader: (1)

Ime thinking I will need a dry sump now what have people used to fit them in to a fwd car?

XRT_si

iTrader: (2)

Seems if you're on a Blacktop, have standard pulleys and flywheel, and don't rev higher than 7200 then they are pretty bullet proof, unless you're going mental power.

crazycage

agree .

creator

Have a word ith luke rob,i remeber seeing in his project thread jkm had to mod it but xant remember exactly what they did