QplateRST!

My fiesta is home built,
but as for mapping i havnt got to that yet all i have done with mine is an off the shelf chip so to speak then set my fuel preasure and my Co

Then checked the boost and that as far as ive got so far i will be putting the car on megasquirt in the near future and then with help get more involved with mapping ect!

But up to now im happy with how far ive got as im an electrician by trade so most of my car is self learned or helpfrom friends!

chaffe

So its not mapped by you then mate! get it on MS! much more fun

mrviper

i have st170 engine in my focus with a mtech v4 and bike throttle bodies

i mapped it my self and i get 1 lambda under normal driving even from frosty morning right through to the fan kicking in

0.88 flat out 1.04 cruise
vvt @ 20% throttle and after RPM

does the same mpg as std ST if you drive it normally

i think the map sensor is broke because it sticks at random numbers last time it was 200kpa

i have a innovate wide band and a stethoscope from machine mart

@ flat out it don't seem to pink just goes slower after 36o ignition

would be nice to have the vvt slightly enabled when its off by default because its flat as a 1.3 ka below 2k rpm

Dalek

How would they find the optimum advance ? Swing the timing at high rpm and look for power output changes ?

A dizzy that the ecu replaces is a fairly basic thing with only two points in the advance curve, I know i can have lots more (10 i think), how does the dizzy setup do it ? Just gets to a max amount of advance and flat lines ?

Craig

PS thanks for replies

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Yes mate, you try different values and watch the tractive effort change on the rollers.


With regards to how a dizzy works, normally there is a combination of factors that determine the shape of the curve, and its far more involved that you realise by the sounds of it.

You have a starting point set in terms of where the dizzy is rotated to, altering this moves ALL values globally.
Within the dizzy you have a centrigual weight that advances the timing as the engine speed incrases.
Potentially you also have a boost/vacuum input which can alter the timing based on boost or vacuum changes, controlled by a diaphram.
You then have a stop, to set the maximum possible amount of advance that will be allowed

By altering the strength of the spring and the weights attached you can vary the rate at which more advance is introduced as revs change, and you can also alter the stop point to vary the maximum amount allowed, so something you'll set a big weight but a close stop so that timing is added quickly but only a very finite amount of it, or vice versa you might have a lazy increase in timing but allow lots and lots to be added.

I would imagine you can also alter the preload on the diaphram to vary the amount of vac advance and boost retard etc, but I didnt ever need to do that personally.

Its surprising just how good a curve you can actually get on a dizzy if you know what you are doing!

SiZT

Yes it's a data logger that will take inputs from EGT, MAP, TPS etc and will work through my lm1 so I can get data logs with all the info on my laptop.

2 programs I've had a look at are RACE 2000 and WinOLS. Race 2000 already has maps from certain cars, so you can pick it up and go, I didn't get much chance to look at it (was on a 30 day trial) but I couldn't see any way of changing the resolution so with increased rev limiters it was interpolating off the end of the map.

WinOLS is a complete back to the bones, scanning through Hex data program. Apparently the full version will look for maps for you but I'm tight and on the trial version. I've identified some maps purely from looking through the code and finding what look like potential maps from the 2d and 3d graphs, however I have no idea how to change them. Www.chiptuners.org has a good forum about it all.

Edit: For the lm2 users, have you found them unreliable? I went for a lm1 instead due to hearing of reliability issues.

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Yeah ive seen winOLS before, powerful but hard work like you say!
Well unless someone else has already sorted out the defintion file for you showing what goes where!


Ive had an LM1 for years and its been great, never bothered to upgrade the LM2

mrviper

whats the mimimum needed to change a octavia vrs map?

Rick

Chip,

it was quite painful lol.

First of all i had to work out how the Torque based systems work. Once I had that clear, i searched the net and found similar ECU's which had some of the map locations defined, e.g. the VAG 1.8T's

Then it was a case of comparing the hex files from my ECU and the other defined ECU files and looking for matching patterns. At first this was useless and I couldn't find anything. Eventually I started to find bits, and the more I found the easier it was to find more. At this point I wasn't entirely sure which maps i'd need but then it all started to come together.

By pure chance I made contact with a software engineer with a passion for reverse engineering. He was/is working on code that given a function can sniff out other similar functions, simlar to the way a virus scanner works. It has pulled out a lot of maps automatically, but i've found more manually as it's still WIP.

Aftermarket ECU is much easier to work with, but in a modern car with all it's interconnected systems it would really need to be piggy back unless your ripping everything out. I did get come very close to going down this route. As it is, I have very good control over the motronic, with full thermal management (full load is at lambda 0.85 for the majority of time) and even launch control.

Rick

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Sounds fantastic Rick, if I ever buy an S4 (i'd like to if I wasnt commuting so far) you'll be my new best friend

foreigneRS

anyone use ATI VISION?

Ginge !

you can buy the honda sensor from eurocarparts chip for around 120 quid, i got a wideband that uses the honda civic sensor and had to buy a new one

GaryHurn

iTrader: (1)

i started to map my nova manged to get it to run/idle and rev cleanly, even got the cold start spot on after a few days, i then didint feel confident in mapping it on the road so i paid somebody .... well it melted after 90-100 miles so had it built up spent a fortune on the engine and wasnt prepared to risk a new engine with my novice skills, so paid soebody again this time it has been faultless, really wanting to map it this time with the new turbo and cams but not confident enough i dont think

nova is 2.0 16v turbo on emerald k3 which has very poor software for road mapping

i have an innovate lc-1 wideband display in car and egt sensor sending info to the ecu, can be logged etc

cossieDavedree

I looked into running an aftermarket ecu for my yb last year and I was looking at the m-tech v4.
Can it be used with the weber sensors. ie cosworth crank pulley lugs as opposed to flywheel or 36:1 wheel.
And likewise for the tps, amal valve, etc.

mikey p

yes thats what i use at work.
have you used it?

on the after market side ive done stuff with efi euro4.
good ECU as it has full data logging capabilities built in, very useful for sorting transient fuelling.

Chip

iTrader: (3)

IF thats definately the right sensor for the much older tech edge then I'll have one off you if you can order one for that much mate, would love to have that wideband back, it was great.

dug112y

iTrader: (1)

there is a big difference on these with the vvt mapped correctly and not just switched @2500 rpm. its a continously variable cam timing system but you need an ecu with pwm cam control like dta s60,omex 710 etc (similar to bmw vanos i think). it needs advanced between 2500 and 4500 then retarded from that 4500 to redline.

foreigneRS

i use it at work as well

stevieturbo

Hinson Supercars in Yankland are doing the NGK wideband with NTK sensor at pretty damn good prices.

or www.lambdasensor.co.uk has the NTK sensor for around £120 last time I checked.

As for the DIY det-cans....IMO, they are nearly the best. Certainly less background noise than the electronic variety

As for mapping, I just fire numbers at mine and hope for the best.

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Nice one stevie, will dig out my old techedge and make sure all the parts are there and order one of those


Yes I actually prefer the sound by a big margin on the home made cans but its so much easier to use the electronic ones when jumping car to car etc.

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Appears to be this one:
http://www.ecolambda.co.uk/main/ecos...item=250-25001

as they claim here:
http://www.lambdasensor.com/main/mwide.htm
that it cross references to the honda part number I need:
36531-P07-003


I wanted a genuine honda one again though TBH, not an aftermarket equivalent as ive heard plenty of horror stories of them not calibrating correctly with their external resistor rather than the internal one of the genuine item

This is what Im after specifically:


Best I can find so far is 350 dollars statestide:
http://www.hondapartsnow.com/genuine...1-P07-003.html

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Found this one as well actually

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Bosch...Q5fAccessories

Which is the genuine item I believe, they certainly used to be anyway as I know that bosch bought them from NTK originally, but wether they still do or have moved onto another supplier is of course a bit of a lottery!

stevieturbo

http://www.hinsonsupercars.com/p-946...eband-kit.aspx

http://www.hinsonsupercars.com/p-107...en-sensor.aspx

Seems very good value

Dalek

Thanks for the reply Chip

I do know how the dizzy works ref weights, stops, springs and vacuum etc

I didn't put it across very well as it was a one liner while i was at work when i am meant to be working :-D

If i wanted to map myself in real conditions, ie a cheapskate doing it on the road what would be the best way to start ?

A few of my ideas

Setup rough base curve similar to standard dizzy
ignore vacuum
I have a mic and headphone setup that i was going to attach to the block to listen for pinking, passenger and myself can listen to that while the passenger tweaks the map while i drive on the same bit of road over and over.

Look at adding the vacuum, this is the bit that i am looking for info on

Hope that makes sense ? Still at work

Dalek

The only way i can damage the engine by doing this is by having it pinking isn't it ?

Chip

iTrader: (3)

N/A or turbo mate?

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Yeha that looks like the right item and is same price as the one I found but its already this side of the pond which is a big bonus, thanks!

And yes im not a fan of the bosch sensors in the innovate kits, they are "ok" but dont last as long as the ntk/honda ones and I dont think they react as quickly either.

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Seems good enough value that it seems unlikely its the one Im after TBH, as thats just massively cheaper than everywhere else.

Does look to be genuine ntk though!

Gotta be worth a punt at that money!


*edit
Actually not such good value, shipping from them is more than a little pricey on an item of that size and value!
FedEx International Economy $86.91

chaffe

Chip, got a question, i can get an hour on the rolling road local to me, i said to the operator about mapping it myself and that is no problem. I just want to work on the full throttle stuff TBH, as i can do all the cruise bins no probs on the road. What will be the best method to map it on the rollers? will he prefer to do "power runs" or will he be able to hold the car at a set "rev range"? last time i did this was with an NA golf on someone eles dyno, and he said he couldnt hold it for too long?? thanks

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Depends on the rollers mate.

On a dyno dynamics which is what I normally like to use, you can sit there with the hand controller in the car and alter the speed the rollers run at and measure the tractive effort on the screen.

so you set it to say 30mph which is 3000rpm and you go to full throttle, and you can see a value, then you can make a change and go to full throttle again and it will go back to the same speed and you can look again, if you are quick on the changes you can actually do them while holding full throttle and see if the tractive effort increases or decreases.

By doing this, you can make your way along every cell really quickly, as you just set it to say 3000 and then wind the throttle open bit by bit to jump to each load cell up that column, then increse the roller speed so you jump to 3500 then start again etc

More difficult on a car with boost to get the intermediate cells, but for the full throttle you are talking about obviously its easy.


You can also do it on a power run, just do a run, plot the graph, make some changes, do the run again, see which bits got better and which bits got worse.



On big boost cars I tend to prefer doing a power run as holding it at fixed RPM under load can get things very hot!


For N/A cars though I do as described above and can quickly visit every meaningful cell (by that I might not get to 5% throttle at 5000rpm but thats only a coast down cell anyway effectively)

chaffe

cheers, the easiest way then is probably several power runs, tweaking it inbetween

Dalek

N/a m8

A crossflow bottom end with an alloy aquaplane pre xflow head, pair of su carbs and a 123tune dizzy (the ecu one)

Craig

Chip

iTrader: (3)

As per my comments above, N/A engines tend not to be knock limited, at high rpm its often impossible to make them knock just by winding in more timing, so you cant really set the timing properly just by listening, you need rollers to know if you are getting more or less power when you add more timing in as what will happen is it will go more/more/more/same/less as you add in more ignition timing.

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Ps

and yes providing the fuelling is correct you are unlikely to damage it playing with the ignition without it pinking, the exception would be if it was VERY retarded as then it could end up getting too hot, but im talking about firing like 30 degrees too late not just a few and it would be flat as a fart anyway if you did that!

Dalek

Ok Chip, thanks for the info

BRAM

iTrader: (1)

Hi everyone just read this thread as im very intrested in learning about this and i thought i'd ask afew questions as yous seem to know quite a bit.
You say you first establish a safe ig timing map, How do you know that it is safe? What do you do just lock the timing to a certain point?

Also you say that your afr is 16-17:1 on light throttle but i thought that would be to lean i thoght it should be closer to 14 is it safe at 17?

Thanks Bram

chaffe

Hi, a safe map would mean putting sensible figures in for full throttle and boost, if your messing with ig timing and fueling its assumed you have a rough idea what these might be, depending on boost levels, compression ratio etc, my engine for example pinks at more than 16 deg at six psi at peak torque, so i retarded it several degrees. but it is 9.5:1 compression, a cossie at 8:1 would prob need more timing for sure. And at 16:1 on cruise you would harm nothing, as it is light throttle, if however you ran this afr on boost then something would def melt! at 17:1 though you could run the risk of burning out the valves, or the car "kangarooing" a bit. 14:! is far too rich for cruise, it would be lovely and smooth, but wank on fuel/mpg.

BRAM

iTrader: (1)

Ok mate thanks for the quick reply like i say im just intrested in learning about this

Cheers Bram

saph4be

cracking thread guys keep it up

chaffe

get yourself a wideband lambda sensor and gauge for around £150 for christmas, fit it and study it, you will learn a lot, then realise you want to change various bits of your cars map, as i bet its not perfect/as you would want it!