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Who maps their own cars?(DIY)
Just interested who on PF does thier own tuning? karlos g, myself, anyone else? Im just interested in what techniques, hardware etc people are using on the DIY tuning front. Not wanting tuners to post saying they do thier own tuning lol. I think a thread like this would help get people who are like minded together, and prehaps disscuss any problems or developments.
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my fiesta turbo is totally home built and home mapped.
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Originally Posted by crazycage
(Post 5201004)
my fiesta turbo is totally home built and home mapped.
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Yes, Nistune. Wideband and det cans. Can't afford Knock-link.
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I do
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As crazycage said, his, project rs, rick, and soon mine are and will be home mapped. Rick is the main guru, think gary uses both det cans and the electronic det cans, lc1 inovate, egt gauge etc and some big bollocks coupled with plenty of road.
All on megasquirt, mine is mtech v4 which is pretty much the same in the sense that the same software/interface is used. |
I use a knockbox set of det cans sometimes and a phormula set others, and also have home made ones from pipe and a set of workmans ear defenders.
Also got the phormula knock display which is kind of cool but ive not really relied on it for mapping particuarly, the 0-5v output is good for datalogging on my autronic though. |
chip do you think the diy ones are the best for live mapping as ive heard the eleccy ones can be a touch to sensitive in what they pick up where as the trained ear can detect det much more reliably?
How do you monitor you afr? |
Originally Posted by Autoflock Motorsport
(Post 5201363)
some big bollocks coupled with plenty of road.
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Originally Posted by Autoflock Motorsport
(Post 5201386)
How do you monitor you afr?
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Originally Posted by lead_foot
(Post 5201025)
Yes, Nistune. Wideband and det cans. Can't afford Knock-link.
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Originally Posted by Chip
(Post 5201375)
have home made ones from pipe and a set of workmans ear defenders.
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Yes, me. Been playing with MSs ever since they were introduced in 2001.
Techedge wideband has always been the main tool. I've got knocksense also in my car, but to be honest, it's no better than a pair of ears. |
Originally Posted by JesseT
(Post 5201721)
but to be honest, it's no better than a pair of ears.
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Innovate LM1 and home made det cans. Have considered getting an Innovate Aux Box aswell. Any one used one? Any good?
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Originally Posted by chaffe
(Post 5201715)
PICs chip!
Will try and remember next time im near them. Its nothing fancy though, just a pair of B&Q ear defenders and some hosepipe! |
Originally Posted by JesseT
(Post 5201721)
Yes, me. Been playing with MSs ever since they were introduced in 2001.
Techedge wideband has always been the main tool. I've got knocksense also in my car, but to be honest, it's no better than a pair of ears. |
When I got my first Cossie, I reverse engineered the ecu software but didnt really do much with the info and in the end decided to design my own ecu and map it myself.
Took me about 4 years as I did it in my spare time and it was a lot of work and was a technical success. However, my attempt at turning it in to a business failed but thats history..LOL This is what I like about PF as we have a mixture of amateurs and pro's who like to exchange info and experiences. :) |
Originally Posted by Chip
(Post 5201904)
Its nothing fancy though, just a pair of B&Q ear defenders and some hosepipe!
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Originally Posted by SiZT
(Post 5201876)
Innovate LM1 and home made det cans. Have considered getting an Innovate Aux Box aswell. Any one used one? Any good?
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Me :DD:
I've mapped Omex, GEMS, M-Tech V4 and a few others. I use an Innovate LM2 and Phormula Pro (Det displayed on screen and audible through headphones). www.geekmapped.com is a good forum for DIY mappers :grin: |
So what is peoples techniques? Mine is (mentored by my older mate steve) To first establish a safe ig timing map and get the car to idle well, then on the road set up all the cruise and light throttle AFR, then set the "transition" fueling as the car comes on boost, then map the on boost fueling at low boost, then just keep upping the boost and doing the same. After that i push the timing until im scared or it pinks. It works for me, just wondering if thats the norm? Obviously you may have to re-visit the afr at various stages to get it perfect, i tend to aim for 12 or under afr to be safe on boost and i like it to be 16-17:1 light throttle, richer at lower revs.
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I normally work in lambda and go to lambda 1.00 at idle and light throttle cruising, up to around 0.95 at high rpm cruising and light throttle acceleration.
On boost I go to around 0.80 lambda and have it at 0.78 flat out. Once i've got the fuelling there or there abouts i'll start to add the spark in until I see/hear pinking and then back the spark off around 3 degrees. |
As per will, I start with the fuelling on a safe ignition map, then dial in more ignition, then go back and adjust the fuelling if its changed (which typically it wont unless the ignition was miles out)
If I am using a rolling road, I then use it to look for the optimum ignition and if its an N/A car i'll look for optimum fuelling too but on a turbo car I never attempt to find peak power AFR, I always run richer than that as Im more interested in safety than BHP on a turbo car. Ive mapped loads of different ecu's now including dta p8 pro, dta s60, omex 600, mtec v4, ms 1, ms2, autronic smc, autronic sm4, autronic sm2, mbe 941, emerald k3, rp labs l8, and just starting on saab trionic T5 suite. Might be a few others as well TBH Ive got a pretty lousy memory for product names and its about an 8 year period or so that ive been mapping now Of those, my favourite are the Autronic ECU's and then closely followed by Mtec/MS and my least favourite are the P8 Pro and the Emerald |
In the early days of my mapping, I learned the hard way and melted 3 YB's ..LOL :wall:
Anyway, once you have mastered the principles, using differnt ecu types is just a matter of getting around how the mapping software works as some are brilliant to use and some really dont help at all and then others like Emarald should stick to N/A cars mapping 1 byte a day :cry: |
Originally Posted by ECU Monitor Enthusiast
(Post 5202065)
In the early days of my mapping, I learned the hard way and melted 3 YB's ..LOL :wall:
run them too lean? Anyway, once you have mastered the principles, using differnt ecu types is just a matter of getting around how the mapping software works as some are brilliant to use and some really dont help at all and then others like Emarald should stick to N/A cars mapping 1 byte a day :cry: People who are computer experts and have no experience of engines make lousy mappers IME, they think cause the mapping screen looks like Excel that they know what they are doing, but they often dont realise how much different just a small change can make. Im not down on IT people, in fact I have actually got a software engineering degree myself but it doesnt help me at all when it comes to mapping cars and lots of IT peopel think it will. The reason that I was able to map cars very easily when I first tried was that for years before that I had been altering fuelling on carbs and altering timing curves on dizzys etc so already knew what an engine wanted fuelling and timing wise before I ever even saw an ECU. There is a lot of good info out there now that there wasnt back when I started though so Im sure that these days you can pick it up without needing so much prior experience. |
Originally Posted by Chip
(Post 5202077)
What did you actually do to melt them?
run them too lean? Destroyed 2 engines this way and the third was using the wrong fuel after mapping the ecu on 102 ron race fuel... Doh ! |
Originally Posted by ECU Monitor Enthusiast
(Post 5202085)
No, it was my lack of understanding how ignition advance works in relation to boost pressure rise :cry:
Destroyed 2 engines this way and the third was using the wrong fuel after mapping the ecu on 102 ron race fuel... Doh ! Luckily Mike actually knows enough to realise it should be ignition RETARD that is increasing when boost does (ie less advance not more) Fucking easy mistake to make though! |
Its actually quite amazing how quickly you can melt a piston !
I reckon the second engine died within 5 seconds of boost ! :eek: At least the exhaust pipe got lubricated well :cry: |
Will never rust now its been aluminised from the inside!
And yeah a piston melting is not something that takes long if you get it very wrong, there is a LOT of energy inside an engine running a couple of bar of boost. |
Originally Posted by Chip
(Post 5202077)
What did you actually do to melt them?
run them too lean? Agreed, mapping cars is about knowing what an engine requires, the ecu / carbs / dizzy / or even emerald are there just to allow you to try and give it what it wants. People who are computer experts and have no experience of engines make lousy mappers IME, they think cause the mapping screen looks like Excel that they know what they are doing, but they often dont realise how much different just a small change can make. Im not down on IT people, in fact I have actually got a software engineering degree myself but it doesnt help me at all when it comes to mapping cars and lots of IT peopel think it will. The reason that I was able to map cars very easily when I first tried was that for years before that I had been altering fuelling on carbs and altering timing curves on dizzys etc so already knew what an engine wanted fuelling and timing wise before I ever even saw an ECU. There is a lot of good info out there now that there wasnt back when I started though so Im sure that these days you can pick it up without needing so much prior experience. |
Originally Posted by Chip
(Post 5202089)
Luckily Mike actually knows enough to realise it should be ignition RETARD that is increasing when boost does (ie less advance not more)
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How about some advice chaps ?
I need to map the car, it's an ignition only set up on a pre-xflow How would you advise setting it up ? Get an advance curve similar to a stock one and tweek from there ? Max advance without pinking being the goal ? Advice welcome :-) |
Originally Posted by Dalek
(Post 5202153)
How about some advice chaps ?
I need to map the car, it's an ignition only set up on a pre-xflow How would you advise setting it up ? Get an advance curve similar to a stock one and tweek from there ? Max advance without pinking being the goal ? Advice welcome :-) |
Sorry, but I will never offer advice on mapping specific set ups.
The problems are firstly, that if you take my advice and your car blows up, you will blame me..LOL Secondly, I am no mapping expert ! In reality, mapping any set up is unique to an engine type/tune state etc.. I.E. You map for what the engine needs not what you think it needs. Of course an experienced tuner knows whats needed as a base line ! |
Originally Posted by chaffe
(Post 5202145)
Is it not 1.5 deg retard per 1 psi boost? APPROX
My nova IIRC (not got the map in front of me) was 30 odd degrees at 0 psi of boost at high rpm, and was about 8 degrees when running 31lbs of boost, so if anything it was more like the other way around, ie 1 degree per 1.5 lbs of boost. 10 degrees per bar is probably the closest I'd get to naming a ballpark IME, so again thats 1 degree per 1.5 psi But obviously every engine varies. |
Originally Posted by Dalek
(Post 5202153)
How about some advice chaps ?
I need to map the car, it's an ignition only set up on a pre-xflow How would you advise setting it up ? Get an advance curve similar to a stock one and tweek from there ? Max advance without pinking being the goal ? Advice welcome :-) N/A engines arent normally knock limited, so you can normally just keep putting in more and more timing and still not ever get it to pink at the top end, really you need to be using a set of rollers to find optimimum ignition on an N/A car IME |
Originally Posted by Chip
(Post 5202175)
N/A engines arent normally knock limited, so you can normally just keep putting in more and more timing and still not ever get it to pink at the top end, really you need to be using a set of rollers to find optimimum ignition on an N/A car IME
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I'm mapping my Audi S4 2.7TT at the moment, far far more complex than the aftermarket stuff - it's a real pleasure to do the likes of Omex now lol
Audi uses a Motronic torque and load based system with electronic throttle. There are thousands of maps and parameters, most interlinked with others - it really is an incredible system. I started looking into it in April and I am now at the stage where I can do pretty much anything with it. The car was on an MRC tune which put out around 410bhp at 19psi, it's now doing the same power on 14psi and returning better MPG. Rick |
Rick, how did you gain access to the files and work out which bytes corresponded to the actual different maps?
Or was it something someone else had previously done and you were able to jump on the back of? Remapping standard ECU's is just SO much effort if you are starting from scratch from what Ive seen although Ive never done it myself Ive always only done it when supplied with a tool to do so as TBH its less hassle to just fit aftermarket than to "crack" them like that in the first place! |
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