After reading the smashed sapphire thread it really has dawned on me that if i was in the same situation as the people that were first on the scene, would i know enough to help the people

After long thoughts on the matter i don't think i would as i have no training in first Aid would feel more comfortable fighting the fire than looking after people as i have had fire safety training.
So i was thinking do you guys and gals think it would be a good idea for all motorist forums (or at least passionford) to have a sticky with basic first aid advice that's correct advice. i can't recall ever seeing the info on a car forum.
my thinking is as lovers of speed and cars we are highly likely to at one time to be in the situation that the skills may well save someone's life.

discuss.........

cheers
duncan

 

tbh i thought everyone get's shown the basics at least once? I did it at school then again at college and at a few times with work.

 

With the amount of tossers out there you're safest bet is to just dial 999, if anything were to go wrong when you tried to help you could be in a heap of shit. Sad but it's the way things are. Community first responders can do basicaly fuck all in the event they get sued.

 

i would suspect that's quite possibly true in some respects but speaking for myself i would still do whatever i could regardless of "being sued"
could not live with myself if i didn't.

 

I know quite a bit, used to be the first aider at my old works for years, being a tool shop used to see my fair share of injuries aswell. Aint been on a refresher course for a couple of years now but you never forget the basics.

 

Totaly agree mate! I'd be the same tbh, but then I'm one of these mugs who puts others before himself

First aid guidelines are constantly being updated so it's difficult to know what is currently 'correct'.

 

i wouldnt have a clue at all what to do

 

i was in st johns for 10 years so know a fair bit of first aid and i try to do refresher courses when i can, thing is they change their minds so often with the "correct" way of doing things, and unless its really life or death situation id keep back and make sure 999 was called, not so much a sence of not knowing what to do but the person involved you dont know what they are like, what if you dont do something by the book and the person knows it they could try and sue you, so many adverts with medical misconduct or accidents you could end up worse off.

I do agree with knowing basic first aid though could help save your mates life or family member. Maybe local area clubs if they were interested could look into getting a basic course organised.

 

I think ALL drivers should have to do basic first aid as part of licensing.

I also think regular retesting of driving standards is needed in this country and that could include first aid refreshers.

Also needs to include basic emergency procedures. eg dont open bonnet fully on a burning car, getting unhurt pedestrians off the carriageway and behind the barriers etc.

one crash i turned up to a car rolled several times up an embankment next to a motorway and the survivors ALL sat directly below the car which was unstable and liable to move down the slope!! to you and i that is plain stupidity, but as i was saying in the crash thread, people just dont seem to have the same common sense these days and dont think when in shock because theyve not been taught to!

oh and i think things like compulsory carrying of a high viz, triangle, torch, extinguisher, first aid kit etc should be in law for all vehicles

not true. You will find on any first aid course they talk about this in detail and that noone in the UK has been successfully sued for doing basic first aid.

To do nothing in serious cases WILL lead to death. Doing something even if its a bit outdated will in most cases help.

In order for a claim of negligence to succeed a casualty would have to show that the rescuer owed him a duty of care which he breached, thereby causing him to suffer foreseeable harm.

In the United Kingdom, there is generally no legal obligation on an individual to assist a person in need of resuscitation provided he was not the cause of the casualty requiring treatment. In other words, there is generally no legal liability for a mere omission to act.

 

for me i wouldnt take someone out of a car unless it was on fire because at least if they are in the car (which isnt on fire) and sat uprite thier spine and neck is supported. and never take off a motorcylclists helmet incase thier neck is broken unless they stop breathing. and most of all go to the person that is stayin quiet because the person who is screamin is alive and conscious

 

Yeah i know a bit, had to use it at Lakeside one night when a supra lost control and rolled through 6 concrete posts and a lampost! Im sure there was a thread about it on here somewhere! Definately a good idea to have some knowledge, especially if you can keep calm and controlled in those kinda situations!

 

I have done a First Aid course for work, so know a bit. Never had to use it though.


Brian

 

the main thing you can do in a crash situation is to make sure they are breathing first and for most. if not you have to do somthing as death with shortly follow, clear airway and perform cpr. (2 compressions followed by 30 breaths and dont stop once started until thay start to breath or you physically cant go on cause it is hard work)
if they are breathing and not in imminent danger leave them in the car/position and reasure/talk to them until the fire/paramedic/ambulance arrives you could try to get basic info from them to pass on. name/age/speed/medication/how it happened etc. most crashes will result in trauma and internal injurys and as a result of moving without proper spine immobilization or care of internal injurys will cause more damage.

 

Good idea to include it as part of license imo, stump up some extra cash and it goes to St. Johns or whatever, everyone wins.

I know basic first aid, but I think what was said that you never forget the basics is very wrong. It's easy enough to think you remember, but sometimes it's the little details that count. Everyone should be taught the basics though I am firm believer.

For example, the other day my friend witnessed a crash, cyclist thrown over car and unconscious. Everyone was panicing, and my friend was the only one calm enough to do anything. Checked for breathing, all okay, so in this instance, the best thing to do is call ambulance, keep them warm and keep checking they are breathing.
Everyone around her however were screaming and crying and telling her to put him in the recovery position. In this instance, a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. If he is breathing, why move him? Especially as there could be spinal damage.
Then they yap on about him swallowing his toungue etc (myth). It's worrying because although these people think they are doing the best thing, god forbid if I was ever in a crash I wouldn't want them anywhere near me as they are likely to do more harm than good.

 

ballin - i completely agree with you, i did a first aid course a few months ago and was shocked that almost everything i thought i knew was incorrect and could do more damage than good, like the recovery position you mentioned and i couldnt beleive swalloing your tongue was a myth

basic first aid is deffinatly required imo, even though things are constantly changing, people who worked in the pits for example do things very differently to what is recomended now but it is still helpful knowledge to have and could seriously help someone one day

a little off topic but... the woman running the course told us about her son who drove the ambulances and as he was taking a patient from one hospital to the other he drove past a car accident. he got out to help the person until another ambulance arrived to take them to the hospital that was closest. but the nhs get fined when a journey takes over 13 minutes and because he took over this as he stopped, he got disaplinary action. how shit is that??

 

the tounge swallowing thing is actually NOT a myth as such!

you dont swallow it as in it goes down your throat!

what happens is as its a muscle it relaxes and slips back which covers your airway

 

Nanny state pal, can't do anything right when you try and help people
One other thing worth mentioning, I would never perform mouth to mouth on anyone after taking my first aid course, the risk FAR out weighs any benefit, chest compressions alone are more than enough.

 

Swallowing your toungue is a myth, but yes it can fall back. Constant checking they are still breathing is all thats required for this.

 

i have to disagree some what with this.
the risk is the person is going to DIE if no oxygen is getting into their body to say there is no benifit to keeping somone alive is silly vs your own risks. yes there is a chance of bodily fluids but you can minimise touching and the risk from the casualty using various methods.
of course every situation is diffrent and you would have to assess it as you find it, you may need to think twice if their on the floor with 3 needles handing out of them but in general the risks shouldnt outway letting somone die surely.

and "JUST" compressions are only good for approx 6mins after you stop breathing.

 

I'm by no means an expert mate, but from what I was taught, it is not required. Enough oxygen enters the body during compressions to keep them alive, blowing into their mouth whilst it could help, the actual pressure lost whilst you get into position, blow, then return to compressions, is worse than not bothering with the air.

In addition, combined with the risk from bodily fluids, my trainer told me in all cases due to this, he would not do mouth to mouth. Obviously he has to teach it, but his advice was not to do it.

Take it as you will, that's my stand on it!

 

in that case ballin why do ALL UK medical authorities teach both chest compressions AND breaths as part of first aid??? Find me a recognised/approved first aid course that teaches different......

sure chest compressions will get some oxygen into lungs but not same as breaths will.

and the HIV risk is very low and can be completely stopped by using a barrier which should be in all first aid kits really.

 

as above warren has pretty much summed it up.

doing compressions is mimicking the hearts function which is to pump blood around the body hence transporting oxygen to organs and to the brain this alone will only transport what is in the bloodstream which is approx 6mins worth of oxygen. this is why after such time brain damage and death results (brain damage can happen after only 3mins)

when breathing our diaphram contracts and we draw air/oxygen into our lungs hence the rise fall of chest! if you stop breathing this function stops and air is not drawen/forced into the lungs anymore so we HAVE to supliment this by giving rescue breaths to the casualty which expands the lungs.

im no expert but if your trainer is teaching you as above i would be seriously worried.

its easyer to do cpr with 2 people. one gives the 2 breaths and maintains airway and the other does the compressions

 

I don't know about anything more than general stuff, as it is so easy to get it wrong if dealing with more complex situations.
For example the "recovery position" currently is flat on your back, wasn't when I was taught, but suffering vasa vagal episodes this is what they do.
The point about being sued is not imo correct, if helping in the belief that what you are doing is correct but it goes wrong I don't see that you could be sued.
If you pull a unconcious person out of a burning car and they have spinal injuries leaving them paralysed who's at fault ?
I was driving down the road just past my estate some years back as the school kids were all coming home, and saw something large and black fly across the road from my right to left and land on the grass, only then did I realise it was not a school bag as I had thought but a 14 year old girl, Charlotte ***
She had run out in front of a car and been hit at about 30mph, throwing her into the air and landing face down sliding to a halt on the grass verge, luckily not the road.
There were two cars in front of me that stopped, and then I saw some moron trying to pick her up, she was totally unconcious I shouted as loud as I could to ****ing leave her alone, and rushed over to her, she was breathing ok, checked her neck pulse as her arm was obviously broken, other arm was underneath her, asked people to call 112 in case they hadn't, important this 112 will go to the nearest mobile reception regardless of network, so in poor reception areas it helps a lot.
I waited around 8-10 mins while paramedic arrived, plod were there, I was physically preventing her from getting up by my arm very gently across her shoulder blades, while she was by this time calling me some things I had not heard before, and her friends and friends mother trying to "free" her to the point that I had to threaten them physically to leave her alone.
Anyway she was taken away in air ambulance, paramedic(Neal Porter) said I did exactly right, and told the friends/mother that had she got up with her injuries she wouldn't be walking now.
I also covered her with a jacket from a parent, kids were asking is she going to die!!, amazingly her parents who were away on a "horsey" event in the us didn't even return to the uk.
I think a lot is common sense, or maybe I'm just a saddo that watches too much ER etc!!
I firmly believe first aid and drivers ed should be school subjects.
tabetha

 

2 breaths and 30 compressions but now they are talking about it being 400 compressions and no breaths as there is enough o2 in your system to keep your brain going

i think it's Ł145 for the 1 day course with st johns and well worth it, i've been on 3 so far and learnt more every time

 

112 and 999 are same in UK.

 

learnt it years ago with the ju jitsu training and its come in handy as els got mild epilepsy and had to save her twice fron swallowing her tongue,which wasnt nice

 

the 400 compressions was/is somthing the EMS in usa tell people to do to try and make sure people continue cpr for as long as possible and to stop people shying away from helping casualtys due to having to do mouth to mouth

the 400 comes from because they say on avarage a person will give 60-65ish compressions a min if done correctly. that means if you devide your 400 by 60-65ish you roughly get 6 mins of compressions which is as i said above is the rough amount of oxygen in your body. after this time no oxygen = dead
they bank on the fact they can get an emergancy response to the casualty within the 6 mins so they can take over and perform the CPR with oxygen/breaths correctly and get them breathing again.

i dont think this is taught anywhere in the uk.

 

It's 30 compression 3 breathes. Done a st john's course 3 months ago, really helpfull and you get a little first aid kit and book on completion, iv used my training 3 times since, something in the eye, a burn and someone fainted, your employer should lay the course on for you,

 

the role play is a bit embarrassing at first. Lol and using annie (the resus doll) is weird. Lol

 

Did I say it was gospel you fucking wombat? No.
I just told you all you needed to know in my post, so everything you have said was completely pointless. As for your comment regarding a "barrier", do you happen to carry one around with you in your pocket then? Jesus christ you come out with some opinionated bullshit,

 

i went in may and they said that by the next time we were due a course, 3 years, they were expecting the 400 compressions to be the norm

 

i shouldnt think so for the reasons above! its the wrong thing to teach really.
plus the 400 compressions has been in usa since around 2004 probably before and its not over here yet.

 

no it wasnt pointless you said and i qoute:
which is wrong.

just as you said you felt the risks were too high and having done first aid you should have been told as part of the course about barriers. And yes i do have a barrier in my bag in my first aid kit at all times....

You can also use plastic with a hole poked through for limited protection if necessary. Offers less protection due to no one way valve but better than none as you have no physical contact.

at least my opinionated bullshit on first aid isnt potentially unsafe.....

 

from what research and medical testing ive seen on that technique its only really beneficial for those with NO first aid training who are unwilling or unconfident to do rescue breaths as most people can do compressions so its better to do compressions than nothing.

the evidence theyve shown only shows it having a better outcome because the average person has no first aid training so would fuck up trying to do it properly.

Obviously someone with first aid experience has the knowledge and training to do it properly.

 

The last course I did in July this year was still 30:2 and that was with the London ambulance service trainers we have a 5 day course every 3 years and 1 day refreshers every year.

 

Done mine last week and it was the same... no rescue breath anymore.

I think we all should have a basic knowledge of first aid just in case its one of our family members who may need it.

Best feeling in the world doing first aid then seeing an ambulance appear

 

If someone is not breathing then they are almost dead, doing any amount of compressions and some breaths is going to be better than nothing. By the time they are at that stage they are close to death, doing nothing is almost certain death, doing something may help.

I have training as do most of my family, a life threatening heart condition runs in our family (some have died from it) so is very important to us.

 

Our youngest gave first aid to a guy knocked over outside the AECC on Monday night after the Blink 182 concert.

When they paramedics arrived they thanked him and told him to move along - no name, address, whatever. He may, just possibly, have saved a life, but if he had done something wrong they would have no way to find him.

Circumstances vary so people shouldn't be afraid to use whatever knowledge they have to try and help, eg getting someone out of a burning car, but otherwise keeping them still etc

 

well done to him