Danny @ Enhanced Performance

iTrader: (3)

yeah remembered that thread and just read through again..
iv met and know a lot of people that worked at and for mountune and i can tell you id rather trust their view on long studding over karl norris as they had lots of time and money learning the effects of long studding..
id only ever use mountune long stud and nut kits as iv used others and had very bad consequences..iv not only used many on my own engines but just about every one iv been involved in building wich is alot and never had a problem apart from when we used a different kind of stud and nut kit...
the only person iv heard with this view is karl or any one he has brain washed,im not saying he isnt a good engineer but on this occassion i think he is wrong and would deffo beleive what iv seen first hand and what a company like montune had discovered time and time again....at the end of the day its your engine so do what you feel best..


cheers danny

Ima Racing

iTrader: (1)

The rs500 block may take long studding but i didnt think it was used in BTCC cars The blocks were just thick walled for strength..as said only WRC cars really needed long studding hence the term wrc long studding....infact didnt touring cars run arp type bolts as i know Drury racing said use them with a coopers ring gasket.

Long studs are semi stretch so are reusable a few times so re torquing is a good idea especially when first installed on higher comp engines running full power and not restricted.

Long stud for the right application lads, Karl is a genius despite what others may say he may be young but fuck me he is good..

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Mountune know all about building race engines to last a couple of thousand miles at most, the effects Karl is talking about with pulling the block out of shape are based on long term use on the road.

So depending on which type of engine you are building (race car, high loads short durations, or road car) I would change who I took advice from as they each know more about one thing than the other.

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Why are you concerned?

Doug Stirlings escort runs well over 500bhp for big mileages between builds and no long studding.

As do lots of others.

I personally wouldnt have long studding on a road car unless it was a monster spec engine like Rod's etc
At 480bhp I just cant imagine why you think you need it?

Billy_RS

iTrader: (5)

So for 500bhp, i should use standard head bolts?

This is confusing. Surely having the block machined and long studded would be a better way of securing the head down. Especially if the car will be running monster boost spikes?

Loads of people say its what needs to be done.

On the other hand loads of people say its not the way they would do it.

How do you know who to listen to?

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Yes, that is what people like Stu and Karl would say, and I believe they would recomend that you change them every now and then as they can yield over time.

Better for what?
Providing you have enough clamping force to stop the head gasket blowing, why do you need any more than that?
And when you do have lots more clamping force, what harm does that do to the shape of the block over time, and to the intergrety of the head that its crushing?

If you were using race fuel (like all the motorsport engines people are talking about), and hence seeing massive peak cylinder pressures I would agree with them, and you would just have to accept that extra fatigue on the block and head were side effects of that.




As with anything in life, you dont!


Personally Ive been on normal type (not long stud) ARP stud and nut for ages now (7 years in fact), which lots of people will say is a big no-no on a YB, but its been perfect for me and Im a big fan of them, and ive not had any of the block cracking problems which people say are common with them.

20/20 vision

quite apart from the head clamping issues, long studding considerably reduces the potential for bore distortion when the head is clamped. i wonder how many of those advocates of non-long studding consider this?

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Actually the opposite would appear to be true from what Ive heard of Karl's research (have only heard 2nd hand though as not ever spoke to him personally about it)
He claims that the block is pulled out of shape by the long studding, to the extent that the mating face is no longer flat after a long period of use with longstuds, and obviously is the face is warping due to the block moving, then the bores will be too.

Billy_RS

iTrader: (5)

Cheers for the advice Chip.

By the way, that Turbo you got for matey is fitted now after having to mess about with the actuator bracket. Thanks again

Chip

iTrader: (3)

No problem mate, happy to help

Let me know when its up and running what he thinks of it

Billy_RS

iTrader: (5)

Will do

markk

iTrader: (2)

the 'top and bottom' lol - of all this is that a, ford never designed that block to be drilled into at the bottom, and b, the long studding was brought about before a decent set of gaskets where available for the YB.

There are a series of mods that can be done to the 200 block to prevent it cracking around the water/bolt holes that works.

Danny @ Enhanced Performance

iTrader: (3)

at the end of the day chip, i and lots of engine builders have been using long studs now for a very long time and in all this time on a lot of these engines we havent encountered the problems that you and others are on about,infact i know of several big powered engines that are still going now and have been in competion use for over 10 years also do you think a yb mountune have built just gets thrown away after a few k???of course it doesnt it gets built again and again...

you can beleive what you want but as said if your building a yb with more than 400bhp and the scope to go higher why not just give it its best chance by long studding it????


cheers danny

Danny @ Enhanced Performance

iTrader: (3)

phil you talk waffle mate or just what some ones told you..
Lots of the btcc rs 500 race teams ran long studs,infact it was around the time they stopped blowing head gaskets so often
What does that tell you???
Also they were known as grp a long studs long before wrc!!!!so stop saying that!!


cheers danny

Danny @ Enhanced Performance

iTrader: (3)

if thats the case chip why would you reccomend the conversion on a high powered yb and not a low power one?????


cheers danny

JonnyBravo

In fairness to Karl, his engines perform, make big numbers and get used so its atleast proven that your engine won't fail if you don't use them.

I am NOT saying its the way to do things, nor do I know the ins and outs of the history of long studding but both appear to work.

Danny @ Enhanced Performance

iTrader: (3)

iv seen many engines go wrong that havnt been long studded and iv had many that have cracked then re done with long studs and never another problem...
Im not saying he cant build a big bhp engine im just saying i dont agree with him on this subject...


cheers danny

Ima Racing

iTrader: (1)

Danny i supply the best yb tuners out there i may not have the best knowledge about all this but beleive me when i say karl norris is a genius.

Its my know nothing opinion that long stud is only needed on high comp big boost motors
Other than that its a gimmick and yes my saff is long studded but is hi comp lol

arp's rock and anyone that says otherwise dont know how to install them!

Danny @ Enhanced Performance

iTrader: (3)

ok phil thats cool just keep going on about things you know nothing about!!!

ps julian godfrey is another person id much rather listen to as well...

also i know we all use wrc hgs because of ease to get hold of but i and others still believe the coopers ring s set with long studs is the best route and was one of the first set ups in the btcc,lots of scandanavians still use this set up and lots of rallyx boys also

these set ups were always low comp up untill recent years



cheers danny

Ima Racing

iTrader: (1)

Danny i supply the best yb tuners out there i may not have the best knowledge about all this but beleive me when i say karl norris is a genius.

Its my know nothing opinion that long stud is only needed on high comp big boost motors
Other than that its a gimmick and yes my saff is long studded but is hi comp lol

arp's rock and anyone that says otherwise dont know how to install them!

Danny @ Enhanced Performance

iTrader: (3)

thats a double post mate!!!!!!

cheers danny

Gary F

iTrader: (1)

I'd personally go with anything Karl says YB related, his knowledge is unreal!

Ima Racing

iTrader: (1)

....in what way do i know nothing? As u say the btcc cars used the std bolts with coopers ring (which in my experience are shite copy or real gasket i have blown 3 ) long stud may have been around but wasnt really needed until the rally car days you have said so yourself mate with your coopers ring stuff...alot of scandi big bhp motors also run ARP's!

PS i agree on JG also

Billy_RS

iTrader: (5)

So now ARP head bolts are good?

The other day everybody was slagging them off saying they can crack the block?

Ima Racing

iTrader: (1)

I used them on a stage 3 no probs mate as per Chip, i cant see a problem!

The reason i think they are slagged off on here was because Mike Rainbird once said they was shit....so it became a bandwagon kinda thing because i think SCS saw a block crack that had ARP's, dont seem to mention all the cracked blocks on std head bolts though? ARP is the Devil's head stud

Billy_RS

iTrader: (5)

Oh right.... Bandwagon Slagging

LHD220Turbo

iTrader: (4)

well i can only go on my experience and found the ARP's very good

I installed them myself and was very meticulous, others may not be which is where problems start

Danny @ Enhanced Performance

iTrader: (3)

i said you no nothing on your own admission!!!!
Where did i ever say coopers rings were used with std head bolts???imo that would be a waste of time!!
most of the teams were using long studs by the end of the 88 season and infact i was talking to a man today that actualy built a few of the engines..
im not going to say any more on the subject to you phil because youve got nms blinkers on and talk shit on the matter!!!
another point i will make on the matter if anyone is interested is that if karls theory on the long studs warps the deck of the block because of its pulling forces then surely since they pull from the bottom of the block how comes it doesnt pull the main caps out of shape????

Also for any one that believes this theory why is it then ok to use the long studs on a more powerfull engine like rods for example???
Its also a fact that as soon as they were being used in the btcc that them teams stopped having as many hg issues and slightly longer lasting engines...


cheers danny

1300gt

iTrader: (2)

Hi all,
I respect all the specialists that are being talked about recently. I think that some of the problems that people may have had is with personal builds? . . Being meticulous as one can be is very important.
No one has mentioned the surface finish of the "block deck" and "cylinder head"? . . that MLS gaskets require etc

Danny @ Enhanced Performance

iTrader: (3)

what are you on about????
Thats because were not talking about block decks or mls hgs we are talking about if grp a long stud and nut kits are needed on big power ybs!!!!!


cheers danny

markk

iTrader: (2)

Danny, it doesnt matter what anyone says, its your way or no way is how i read all your posts.

You may well be stuck with an old method, that had to be done before multilayer gaskets where available, yes it does work, but does it need to be done now - you cant prove it otherways because you long stud everything as they did in the old days.

good on you.

Ima Racing

iTrader: (1)

Mate you dont know Karl Norris so you cant really comment

HIGH COMP (9-1 + ) BIG BOOST(3BAR SPIKE) = WRC LONG STUD STOP/START FULL RACE ENGINES THATS THE ONLY ENGINES THAT NEED THEM.

Rod runs very high comp i beleive for the BHP output circa 8.5-1

Terry Drury you know him? Coopers with std head bolts he told me!

Danny @ Enhanced Performance

iTrader: (3)

markk im not saying my way or no way im just saying that the reasons for not long studding are utter shit!!!
Iknow i come across like that sometimes but its because you get so many idiots saying things like phil above^^^,when realy i should ignore them people and just get on with it but i like to try and put my point across...
The facts are these blocks havnt changed for years and this old method is still being used because it works and there isnt a better route..
Do i think you still need to long stud yes i do is the answer specially if your going for 400bhp plus..
If people want to do it with out then thats up to them but theres no point in telling people that are spending alot of money on their engine build that its pointless because thats not right specially if they are getting nonsense for a reason....
Its funny how no one answers my very reasonable questions,like if its damaging to a low power yb how come its fine on rods for example???or if its true it distorts the bores how comes it doesnt twist the main caps???
The only reason these qs arnt answered is because they either dont know or they know theyre talking shit...

any way i now feel better saying all that and if im not mistaken did you just sort of agree with me???if so nice one that does make a change!!!Lol


cheers danny

Ima Racing

iTrader: (1)

Danny its nice how you say idiot etc. Typical PF user and why the site has gone down hill.

markk

iTrader: (2)

steady on dont get too excited that will be twice this year already

I have seen and used both ways, admittantly I have never gone over 600hp with a YB, and yes that had long studs (not specced by me) and yes it failed, i know several that have pulled the studs from the bottom of the block and just as many that have leaked oil/coolant and mixed, but I have also seen just as many std stud failures and cracked blocks that havent been modded to stop this happening.

So to me, and even my use I wouldnt long stud - my compressions for the rally motors are always over 9.1:1 and we have used them with and without restrictors on T34/compressor hybrids, so, I would say if you find a method that works for you just use it is my advice.

Danny @ Enhanced Performance

iTrader: (3)

Phil read back through this whole thread mate and read what youve said and what iv said,not once have you even thought about what iv said even on a couple of occasions iv stated some facts from people that actually built rs 500 engines for btcc race teams!!!
Then you go on about them only being used for wrc and hc when iv stated they were used long before them and known as grp a long studs!!!!
You only state what people have said to you when iv worked with and talked to alot of people that have shown me why and how things work and since then have done it with my own hands...
If you dont know how something physically works how can you make an arguement on it???

cheers danny

Danny @ Enhanced Performance

iTrader: (3)

LOL i can honestly say iv never ever seen any studs pull from the bottom of the block and as for the oil and water mix id say thats probably just a block failure as like you say youve seen that with std head bolts as well but ill agree and take that one about sticking with what works for you...


cheers danny

Billy_RS

iTrader: (5)

Im not being rude but Danny are you a tuner?

Just comes across that way unless im missing something?

Danny @ Enhanced Performance

iTrader: (3)

sort of billy,i used to own abc motorsport before i sold it and the blokes that bought it fucked it up and iv been doing my own and friends cossies since 96 and still now i build afew engines with my mate luke who owns enhanced performance..
Iknow alot of the top tuners from essex and a lot of former blokes from mountune and have learnt a lot from them over the years...
Im not saying i know everything far from it but when it comes to the yb and lots of old school rs then id say i know quite a bit!!lol
Me and luke have built and mapped my latest rebuild thats 642 bhp and 526 lb ft and if i strapped a bigger air pump to it would do over 700 bhp..
All in all iv done and been apart of alot of yb engine builds


cheers danny

Miller 3

iTrader: (4)

and break even more transmission parts