J1mbo

iTrader: (1)

cool gis a ring bud and will sort sometime to come over, and make sure the old man is actually in

JonnyBravo

Mental power !

Is it normal for the oil pressure to drop off so much in the revs ? I've never really looked at that on any dyno plots but 3 bar I guess is still plenty.

Good results, that will be properly fast !

paulj

gary,still a standard oil pump aswell,still good power at 7500rpm

luke i`m sure its standard h/g arp headbolts/studs have to ask jim

cheers paul

crazycage

i broke mine at 7800 and i think luca's did at 7800 aswell so 7500 might be just on the safe side but i wouldnt like to say lol i run mine at 7200 now.

how long till you get it home mate

paulj

gary had this oil pump in for 5 years,bounced off the limiter 8000rpm(stack
dash-with tell/tale)dozens of times!! so hopefully will last.
hopefully get the car back in a week or so


cheers paul

rst-g

cant wait for this to come home

crazycage

i know mate but i would be worried shit less tho .i really cant wait to see what you can get from this car mate.

Luca

iTrader: (2)

Il ask him later tonight to be sure.

BLOODY AWESOME RESULT and many sleepless nights for you until you get it back.

Best of luck with it, I certainly look forward to seeing it smash all the current times out there

Fudgey

iTrader: (4)

awesome!

if mine makes half that, ill be happy lol

ok i wont as i want near 400 lol but anyway, top effort chaps.

paul, do you have a spec of the engine or is it all top secret etc?

AustenW

Please change the oil pump

Its a time bomb waiting to go off

Hezz

i know the secret to the power - its all the chips its got!! (patate fritte)

paulj

but i believe the new standard pumps are crap! which would you recomend,

cheers paul

SidZvh

Awesome power Paul. Looking forward to seeing it back in action. Congrats to all involved. Gonna be insane.

zetaboostboy522bhp

well what a surpise youve brought this up !!! first of all knowing paul pretty well hes been running a genuine 500bhp for around 2 years i would say when he slapped the t61 turbo on ,he just never had it dynod to prove but with his 9 sec to 100mph on 19" wheels that would also say it had a solid 500bhp engine. i have never seen a problem with the blacktop caps , but talking to very well informed people like ian , austen basically people who develop these engines and not just build them , and when they say theres a slight issue with parts and people are genuinely asking for good and bad points of an engine on a forum then i think its right to state both good and bad (which ive done for both engines may i add)and not get all wankerish about who got the better engine etc.i would personally replace any weak link in the engine no matter how small as i couldnt afford to lose an engine for the sake of a few hundred quid . i really dont care that you think mine is a shonky silvertop (iam happy), i will prove that the silvertop has the potential to do big numbers and also on the track/drag etc.
i dont think everyone knows that my shonky engine was the first over 500bhp over 2 years ago and kept all secert with no bragging , unlike you claming that you are going to take the fastest fwd crown at the first attempt cause you did a not bad 1/4 mile.
just 2 question for you , why do they make billet mains caps?
why make billet oil gears?

i think because someone knows something we dont or may have pushed the engine to extreme limits.

anyway now that youve ruined johnos thread with your shitty wit and your sarky comments i will let everyone else say congrats to paul


cheers paul

simon170

The new ones are'nt as well made as the ones that came with the cars at the time.

The main issue pumps letting go is with harmonics due to vibration at high rpms. Underdrive pulleys removes the crank dampner and increase the risk of failure dramaticly.

If the rotating assembly has been balanced and you have the crank dampner in there, you should be safe.

These arent bad if you dont wanna use a new pump (thats made by a different company to the first ones): http://focus.c-f-m.com/oilpumpwaterpump_1.aspx

Luca

iTrader: (2)

Out of interest Paul how many miles did the old engine do?

Im sure though as others have stated its the new style oil pumps that are at fault and the old seasoned pumps are "probably" safer although its hard decision to fit an old pump on a new build.

Dry sump could mean higher revs though for you and the big 600!

simon170

You got that right, got that choice for my build at the moment, I know its the best thing to do, but it just doesnt seem right

wozzy

my bro is running an ian howell zetec turbo ( black top ) in his mk1 cortina. ( driving the proper wheels ) When sheady was mapping it they got to 2.4bar ( gt3071 ) and 7800rpm from memory and the oil pump shat its pants. As there werent any viable or cost effective alternatives for the black top he just bought a new standard pump and had the internals cryo'd. He's now capped the boost at 2 bar and the revs at 7200. Got to be on the safe side as said already, the oil pumps are a time bombs.

Great figures though!! considering the build cost and spec of the car, would dry sumping not be an option?? expensive i know but surely needed for track work??

crazycage

i think you just ruined the thread with all that crap !! i was just asking if you have changed your opinion as your friend and your tunner built this engine for over 600hp with standard mains .

and i have NEVER claimed to take the fastest fwd crown on my first attempt so dont know where you got that from.

p-s it wasn't wit or a sarky comment it was a genuine question but clearly you have a problem with me and what my car has achieved ,and for the record i said i would go the central day last year and do 12s and i did.

fezzajsy

iTrader: (9)

awesome

c20tbo

iTrader: (1)

Thats a massive amount for bhp/torque for fwd, i take its fwd that is? my question is it not too much though for drivability ect? i ask this as my old nova turbo was roughly 300 with sc/cr box atb diff, and that was a struggle putting the power down, hense my new project.

Credit tho, Great results from SCS good signs for the future with these engines.

paulj

to be honest i don`t really know but they have all been hard ones
it was in ians focus 5.5 years ago,then the fiesta,now back in the focus!!
i`ve done numerous track days,totb3+4,and quite a few dyno runs,
just hope i`m not tempting fate now!!!
could you let me know what system/price on your dry/sump setup
(pm me if you want)
incidently harvey capped the power because of injector duration duty
maxed out 8x491cc`s picos so there`s 600+ in there,i don`t think in
all honesty that i`ll use what i`ve got,only on maybe a topspeed run.


cheers paul

AustenW

Are you going with Pace or Titan? I would use Pace TBH

When you get the dry sump get Pace to make you a custom pump for your application as it will need to draw more to keep a vacum in the crankcase as its a high boosted motor and will breath heavily (piston ring blow by), I know a couple of people who made the mistake of getting the standard pump for a nasp and now need to change it as its not creating the desired vacum they wanted

The added vacum in the crankcase and reduced losses from oil hitting the crank may get you a little closer to 600bhp too

Also ask about the rear filter attachment on the back of the pump as this cuts down on piping and looks alot cleaner IMO

paulj

austen thanks for that,appreciated

cheers paul

Luca

iTrader: (2)

If i had not had the fail on mine I probably would be running the standard pump still or at least until the funds allowed to purchase one.

Its one of those things that we all know are a "possible" weak link.
Due to the speed I was doing at the time it failed, I lost valuable time / to realise the issue and shut everything down....

Same for you if your doing say 160 + or 180 your not going to be looking at an oil pressure guage or light...
You are trying to focus on something thats coming towards you at warp speed!

With regard to the dry sump system I orignally went to Pace enquiring about this system and tbh I was pissed off with there lack of effort.
I called 4 times and each time was told the relevant guy was busy and he will call back that day.. so after 4 attempts over 2 weeks and also 3 unanswered emails I did a bit more research.

This is when I came across Titan Motorsport, now firstly the contact I have there now is brilliant emails answered stright away and has all the tech knowledge you could wish for. The icing on the cake though is there kit was developed for the Formula Ford cars. So if its good enough for a race series its good enough for my trolley.

Il pm you rough costs and contact details if you want

Why the Pace over the Titan Austen??

+ regard fitment I have been able to retain all standard parts and just a bracket made for the front to mount the pump.
A guard will be needed to protect the pump/belt though.

These are RWD applications out the box as there are not many idiots running 400+ zetecs with dry sumps

AustenW

What you failed to realise is that the titan system was developed for "formula ford"

Formula Ford are single seaters that run a Zetec 1800cc nasp motor with about 150bhp

This is a completely different application

The pump is the heart of a dry sump system

You have to consider the fact that the 2.0 block has oil squirters and an oil take off for the turbo on the preasure side. Also need to consider bearing clearances for oil preasure drop too.

Then you also need to consider the scavenge effecct of the pump as the oil requirements and blow by past the rings is completely different in Pauls 570bhp motor to a virtually standard 1800cc formula ford engine running 150bhp


Go with Pace all day long even though they are a bit slow

The design spec sheet they will send you for the pump is very important to get right

The recent article in racecar engineering highlighted the issues with getting it right first time.

Just my 2 pence worth

Porkie

iTrader: (1)

I KNOW its alot more expensive and not as much fun etc etc etc.... and its not the point.

but check this out.... IN THE WET!!!! boggo standard 911. frightening level of performance available to even no talent joe public now!

http://www.evo.co.uk/videos/planetev...911_turbo.html

Chip

iTrader: (3)

LOL

That certainly shows how porsche have made it easy!

Chip

iTrader: (3)

AustenW, good info on the pumps there, I know of a couple of people who have bought standard pace setups intended for an N/A XE to run on their LET engines and I suspect they will suffer with losing the benefit of low crackcase pressure you should get on a drysump setup.
Although that said, its probably still better than a standard pump.

AustenW

Yes still better than the standard pump but when your spending £1000 plus on a dry pump setup its worth doing your research properly as it wont cost you any more for the pump as they are generally made to order anyway.


The new pump I've speced for my other engine is £800 alone

Chip

iTrader: (3)

So far my car is coping ok on a standard pump, if I ever get it to handle amazingly well (seems unlikely, lol) then I'll certainly look into getting the right pump specced, as like you say there is no point paying that much money for something and then realising after it could have been better

Luca

iTrader: (2)

Fully understood but these are such offerings from Titan with regard to the speccing to each bespoke application

I was just curious to why you have chosen Pace over Titan do you know anyone running a high hp zetec turbo with the Pace for a long period.

Have they had any issues ??

I know Szaybk has the Titan fitted to his 550hp ish zetec but this has not been fitted for a long period as yet.

AustenW

Szaybk made the error of getting the Titan system with a standard pump and it does not see a vacum in the crank case even at idle, I believe he will be getting a larger pump as it does not perform as well as he expected it too.

Ever heard of the expression "Buy cheap buy twice?"

G-tech use the pace system I believe (Will Gollop's rallycross Focus Zetec is over 600bhp I have been told)

Pace have been supplying pumps to race teams for years for far more exotic things as turbocharged Fords so they should know what there on about IMO

Luca

iTrader: (2)

My set up is different to Szaybks we will just have to see what happens on the engine dyno

AustenW

Numbers mean nothing

The oil pump is either designed right or wrong for the application, period

The amount of vacum may effect overall HP by improving the efficiency of the engine but only by minimal amounts IMO

Luca

iTrader: (2)

I didnt state numbers!

I think you will agree with any engine running higher then normal HP with a dry sump system it needs to be designed as best before then re-evaluted once running. Whether that has 200hp or 1000hp!!
Even Andy G had to alter the setup on his after using the car a few times to get things working how they should.

If you know someone running 500 600 hp zetec engine with exactly the same spec as Pauls then I AGREE use there set up.

Have you had yours running yet with the dry sump system??

AustenW

I'm miles off as its my 3rd project engine now behind the 5cyl and bike stuff, totally redoing the inlet and exhaust system now and possible with the addition of a supercharger

AustenW

Can anyone post any Graphs up on the power curve

Chip

iTrader: (3)

You could tap those numbers into excel to draw one.

you wont get any better than that though I suspect as the way the superflo works is you hold the engine at each load site one at a time, and it measures the value for each (well it does in the mode you use for mapping which that data appears to be from, unless they did a seperate power run as well)

zetaboostboy522bhp

in reply to your question , no i aint changed my mind as i wouldnt want the risk , even if very slight risk be it for the sake of £200.

and soz mate but i certainly dont have any prob with what you have done or achieved with your car. infact i wish you all the best . you have your opinions and i have mine , lets leave it there!!!!

cheers paul